Dear Netnerds,
What the hell is the problem with enhancement shamans using two handed weapons?! Upon the new patch, I respecced enhance, and with a lack of any decent one handed weapons, I proceeded to use Legionfoe from SSO revered.
Now I set off to try out this fan-dangled new talent tree, and was very suprised at what I could do while using a 2H weapon! With twin 2k+ WF crits im pretty much one shotting clothies and mobs when I get lucky.
I've heard the argument that UR uptime is far lower with a 2h, but im VERY unlucky if I don't crit within the first 5 seconds of a fight!
I moved on to some heroics to find myself some 1H weaps, but subsequently was rejected and kicked from some groups for using a 2H weapon.
I decided to go and duel some people, focusing on finding myself some DWing shammies. Against a DWing shaman, with 200+ attack power more than me, I dominated. Out of three duels, the only one I didnt win by a huge chunk of life, was the one where WF DIDNT at all proc.
Now im 100% open to being told that I'm completely wrong, but try and justify it.
It is my solid opinion that using a 2H weapon is ENTIRELY viable in both PvE and PvP situations.
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What the hells the problem with 2H weaps?!Follow
13 posts
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=19323 old school baby \m/
Edited, Oct 19th 2008 7:01am by Ghostlyzer
Edited, Oct 19th 2008 7:01am by Ghostlyzer
Depends on your definition of viable. If by viable you mean just as good, people that do math have concluded two 1h weps is objectively better. If by viable you mean "close enough for me", that's totally subjective. Either way, do what you like.
Anyways, from elitistjerks.com:
2H weapons are strictly inferior for PvE DPS situations. Talents and mechanics of shaman DPS at lvl 70 are built around DW. 9% +Hit while DWing through a 0/42/19 build allows all special attacks to be hit capped through talents alone, while a 2H will only receive 3% of the hit benefit. DW also scales better with AP. 2h effectively gains (1.0 * 0.95 hit rate) = 0.95 from AP and DW gains (1.5 * 0.74 hit rate) = 1.11 from AP. The more +hit you have (until we reach cap) the greater the difference between the two is. At a certain point (easily reached when raid buffed), this difference in gain from AP will outweigh the bonus base DPS of a 2H weapon over similar ilevel 1H weapons.
The second largest benefit you bring to your group is Unleashed Rage, and your Flurry and UR uptime will take a large hit from using a 2H, as strings of dodge/miss/non crits become compounded by a single, slower swing time. Threat concerns are even more problematic with a 2H because of large WF procs, requiring that you heavily pad your threat against a tank.
And finally, as mentioned in the Windfury Proc section, DW with WF on both weapons results in an increased chance to proc WF off either hand (36%). 2H weapons will not benefit from that increased proc rate.
Anyways, from elitistjerks.com:
2H weapons are strictly inferior for PvE DPS situations. Talents and mechanics of shaman DPS at lvl 70 are built around DW. 9% +Hit while DWing through a 0/42/19 build allows all special attacks to be hit capped through talents alone, while a 2H will only receive 3% of the hit benefit. DW also scales better with AP. 2h effectively gains (1.0 * 0.95 hit rate) = 0.95 from AP and DW gains (1.5 * 0.74 hit rate) = 1.11 from AP. The more +hit you have (until we reach cap) the greater the difference between the two is. At a certain point (easily reached when raid buffed), this difference in gain from AP will outweigh the bonus base DPS of a 2H weapon over similar ilevel 1H weapons.
The second largest benefit you bring to your group is Unleashed Rage, and your Flurry and UR uptime will take a large hit from using a 2H, as strings of dodge/miss/non crits become compounded by a single, slower swing time. Threat concerns are even more problematic with a 2H because of large WF procs, requiring that you heavily pad your threat against a tank.
And finally, as mentioned in the Windfury Proc section, DW with WF on both weapons results in an increased chance to proc WF off either hand (36%). 2H weapons will not benefit from that increased proc rate.
Scholar
38 posts
By viable I meant, enough to warrant you even being in the raid.
This is interesting, and I'm glad you brought it to my attention. While I don't plan to be doing a lot of instances while leveling, it would be easier to not have to worry about a big WF double crit propelling my threat into the skies during the odd instance.
Also I hadn't heard anything of this increased WF proc chance while DWing, and that alone is more than enough to turn my opinion.
ALTHOUGH, if using flametongue on the off hand for lava lash, will the main hand still benefit from this increased proc chance?
And isnt the +hit from the resto tree gone now?
Quote:
Threat concerns are even more problematic with a 2H because of large WF procs, requiring that you heavily pad your threat against a tank.
And finally, as mentioned in the Windfury Proc section, DW with WF on both weapons results in an increased chance to proc WF off either hand (36%). 2H weapons will not benefit from that increased proc rate.
And finally, as mentioned in the Windfury Proc section, DW with WF on both weapons results in an increased chance to proc WF off either hand (36%). 2H weapons will not benefit from that increased proc rate.
This is interesting, and I'm glad you brought it to my attention. While I don't plan to be doing a lot of instances while leveling, it would be easier to not have to worry about a big WF double crit propelling my threat into the skies during the odd instance.
Also I hadn't heard anything of this increased WF proc chance while DWing, and that alone is more than enough to turn my opinion.
ALTHOUGH, if using flametongue on the off hand for lava lash, will the main hand still benefit from this increased proc chance?
And isnt the +hit from the resto tree gone now?
Scholar
38 posts
I answered my own question by reading the entire enhance article on Elitist Jerks.
I also learnt a lot about my spell rotation and how to maximise DPS!
Thanks lavagulin! <3
Quote:
When you are wielding a two handed weapon, or are using a shield, your chance to proc windfury on any landed attack outside the 3-second cooldown is 20%. When you dual wield weapons, the chance on each landed attack outside the 3-second cooldown is approximatedly 36%, if and only if both weapons are imbued with Windfury.
I also learnt a lot about my spell rotation and how to maximise DPS!
Thanks lavagulin! <3
Valid questions about the revised talent trees without the resto +hit and with lava lash. The link I posted says the increased WF proc rate is only when WF is on both weapons.
About the rest, I don't see where the elitist jerks guys have modeled that yet or reached any conclusions, except that initial impressions are that WF/WF and WF/FT imbues are both good. However, I have not seen anyone starting to think that 2h is getting closer to DW.
About the rest, I don't see where the elitist jerks guys have modeled that yet or reached any conclusions, except that initial impressions are that WF/WF and WF/FT imbues are both good. However, I have not seen anyone starting to think that 2h is getting closer to DW.
Hey Lifenerd,
Well you see it is the opinion of many that while 2h weapons provide great burst the DPS while DW is so much higher that it is considered more worth while in competitive PvP. Now in BGS you will be able to find weaker geared clothies that lack PvP gear, you can dispatch them pretty quickly into there places in the ground. The problem with DW vs 2H is DW keeps getting better and better with every new couple buffs and talents, it gets so much more out of everything.
DW increases your wf proc chance on each hand so you will see wf more often, DW does much better dps which in competitive PvP is quite important when fighting healers, we don't have MS which makes it tough on us when fighting healers the dps is needed. This is not to say that 2H weapons shouldn't not be used many shaman enjoy using a nice 2h weapon to play around in casual PvP like BGs or destroying terrible friends in duels, but just cause you beat some under geared opponents doesn't mean it beats DW.
With Talents now like Maelstrom Weapon, Static Shock, and Lava Lash Blizzard is pushing for shaman to use DW over 2H. DW provides more chances for procs and now with a new strike that ignores armor all 2h has is less procs with everything, slower attack speed, and not able to use Lava Lash as an extra strike.
But hey again play like you want to games about having some fun, but don't come in here to preach because you killed stuff in PvP with a 2h weapon, I have Dueled naked as ele and beat my friends doesn't mean shamans should run around naked I just knew who I was dueling. Oh and I doubt raiding with a 2H is worthwhile, If you like 2h weapons keep some in your bags but get a decent set of 1h for raiding, although I am sure you can mess around with a 2h weapon in 5 mans for fun.
(edited to come off as less of a **** lol)
Edited, Oct 19th 2008 9:45am by jmfmb
Well you see it is the opinion of many that while 2h weapons provide great burst the DPS while DW is so much higher that it is considered more worth while in competitive PvP. Now in BGS you will be able to find weaker geared clothies that lack PvP gear, you can dispatch them pretty quickly into there places in the ground. The problem with DW vs 2H is DW keeps getting better and better with every new couple buffs and talents, it gets so much more out of everything.
DW increases your wf proc chance on each hand so you will see wf more often, DW does much better dps which in competitive PvP is quite important when fighting healers, we don't have MS which makes it tough on us when fighting healers the dps is needed. This is not to say that 2H weapons shouldn't not be used many shaman enjoy using a nice 2h weapon to play around in casual PvP like BGs or destroying terrible friends in duels, but just cause you beat some under geared opponents doesn't mean it beats DW.
With Talents now like Maelstrom Weapon, Static Shock, and Lava Lash Blizzard is pushing for shaman to use DW over 2H. DW provides more chances for procs and now with a new strike that ignores armor all 2h has is less procs with everything, slower attack speed, and not able to use Lava Lash as an extra strike.
But hey again play like you want to games about having some fun, but don't come in here to preach because you killed stuff in PvP with a 2h weapon, I have Dueled naked as ele and beat my friends doesn't mean shamans should run around naked I just knew who I was dueling. Oh and I doubt raiding with a 2H is worthwhile, If you like 2h weapons keep some in your bags but get a decent set of 1h for raiding, although I am sure you can mess around with a 2h weapon in 5 mans for fun.
(edited to come off as less of a **** lol)
Edited, Oct 19th 2008 9:45am by jmfmb
jmfmb wrote:
(edited to come off as less of a Richard lol)
Man, hate to see how nasty it was before lol :P
I'm still running WF/WF Slow/Slow myself. I tried testing the WF/FT, but I saw a slight decrease in my dps. Could have just been chance on WF procs. Would have to test it longer to get perfect results.
All I know is I'm tearing through sh*t now :P
Edited, Oct 19th 2008 10:47am by Galenmoon
I think WF/FT will be better in PvP where the FT proc ignores armor and the 25% more damage with lava lash will be useful for burst sake (and since the damage is fire again ignores armor). But I think WF/WF will always be preferred in PvE, but who knows.
Pre-resilience 2h was better for PvP imo. but since resilience came along and nerfed crit into the ground the sustained damage from dual-wield makes it far superior. Before the last patch the constant knockback on spell casts was nice too though that is not really an issue anymore.
For PvE dual wield is far superior, the biggest reason for this from my perspective is the nasty amount of threat a big 2h WF crit will deliver.
For PvE dual wield is far superior, the biggest reason for this from my perspective is the nasty amount of threat a big 2h WF crit will deliver.
It looks like I've found a good group for this, so I have a question.
With 3.0 we have Windfury Totem and turned it into (with talents) Haste by 20%. Now 20% means that you could get a 1.7 weapon speed (that would turn it into a 1.36 weapon speed, or 2.72 for every two swings), and yes there are a few maces out there with that speed and some good damage (mostly pvp), and still get the dps of a 2.8 wep? So if you go that direction (if possiable) daggers or fist weps might become really cool. Or like Swiftsteel Bludgeon, with the built in haste total 54pts, the glove enchant for another 10pts, and something like Bindings of Lightning Reflexes, droping your wep speed to about 1.
The graph shown goes down to 1.4... does it get better if you get faster? There are some daggers with a base of 1.3. With just the totem it drops your speed to 1.04. 32pts of haste drops you to a speed of 1. How about that? Hit & proc, hit, hit, hit, hit & proc....????
Otherwise I really don't see why they gave shammy's 20% haste except to help others..... again. Anyone?
Quote:
The idea is to reduce the number of swings made during the time that windfury is on cooldown. Since the cooldown is 3 seconds, weapons speeds are preferred to be close to that speed, generally this means 2.6 - 2.8 under current itemization. The idea is that a faster weapon would proc a WF, and then strike again within the cooldown window, which means that windfury would exit cooldown and your weapon would still be on some significant portion of its swing timer, unable to proc another WF.
With 3.0 we have Windfury Totem and turned it into (with talents) Haste by 20%. Now 20% means that you could get a 1.7 weapon speed (that would turn it into a 1.36 weapon speed, or 2.72 for every two swings), and yes there are a few maces out there with that speed and some good damage (mostly pvp), and still get the dps of a 2.8 wep? So if you go that direction (if possiable) daggers or fist weps might become really cool. Or like Swiftsteel Bludgeon, with the built in haste total 54pts, the glove enchant for another 10pts, and something like Bindings of Lightning Reflexes, droping your wep speed to about 1.
The graph shown goes down to 1.4... does it get better if you get faster? There are some daggers with a base of 1.3. With just the totem it drops your speed to 1.04. 32pts of haste drops you to a speed of 1. How about that? Hit & proc, hit, hit, hit, hit & proc....????
Otherwise I really don't see why they gave shammy's 20% haste except to help others..... again. Anyone?
Haste is great but it is preferred on slower weapons so that WF and StormStrike still hit relatively hard if you go with haste on a fast weapon StormStrike and WF damage go down. If you can get a weapon to drop downb to a speed of 1.01 that was originaly slow your doing something right, or even better .76. Haste is good more wite damage more dps although it can get in the way of your burst if it is making you swing an extra attack before 3 second cd is up.
Let's call it too much rum... I'm confused.
Though I understand this, a 2.4 wep hits and procs wf, start 3 sec cd, hit again, cd up hit proc wf.
My logic is, 1.0 wep. Hit procs wf, start cd, hit, hit, hit, cd up hit proc wf.
The only downfall I see is that faster weps tend to have less dps. On the high side, casters hate you more, more chance to crit with your white damage, other wep procs have a higher chance of hitting more often, and with all the other buffs that a shammy can have you might be able to keep up with a rouge in dps overall...
I'm just trying to understand. Guess I'm also trying to see a Shaman in a different way that might be as effective and not cookie cutter (though I do love my cookie cutter dps!!)
Thanks guys
Edited, Oct 22nd 2008 4:27pm by Simskin
Quote:
Haste is good more wite damage more dps although it can get in the way of your burst if it is making you swing an extra attack before 3 second cd is up.
Though I understand this, a 2.4 wep hits and procs wf, start 3 sec cd, hit again, cd up hit proc wf.
My logic is, 1.0 wep. Hit procs wf, start cd, hit, hit, hit, cd up hit proc wf.
The only downfall I see is that faster weps tend to have less dps. On the high side, casters hate you more, more chance to crit with your white damage, other wep procs have a higher chance of hitting more often, and with all the other buffs that a shammy can have you might be able to keep up with a rouge in dps overall...
I'm just trying to understand. Guess I'm also trying to see a Shaman in a different way that might be as effective and not cookie cutter (though I do love my cookie cutter dps!!)
Thanks guys
Edited, Oct 22nd 2008 4:27pm by Simskin
What you're overlooking is the fact that all of the Shaman's abilities are based on the weapon damage of a single swing, not DPS. Stormstrike is an instant hit with both weapons. Lava Lash is a hit of your off-hand weapon. Windfury is two extra attacks with +AP. The slower your weapons, the harder all of those abilities will hit. The faster your weapons, the weaker the hits of all those abilities. So while it's true that you might achieve a more optimal WF activation rate with specifically calibrated fast weapons, you're going to be hitting less with every other ability in your ******** meaning you'll either have a miniscule net gain in DPS or, more likely, a net loss.
Haste, however, is different than weapon speed. Haste makes you swing faster without altering the base speed or, more importantly, without altering the base weapon damage on a single-swing, per-hit basis.
Bottom line: haste = good, slow weapons = good, fast weapons = bad.
Haste, however, is different than weapon speed. Haste makes you swing faster without altering the base speed or, more importantly, without altering the base weapon damage on a single-swing, per-hit basis.
Bottom line: haste = good, slow weapons = good, fast weapons = bad.
Thank you!!! A barrell of rum for you too!
So Solo work, Wep WF both weps, drop Strenght of Earth (+str and +agi), Windfury (wep haste), Fire tot (searing), and.... well I get a little lost as to what the cookie cutter is here, but I usually plop a mana tot down (if I remember). That good?
Again thank you for taking the time to explain it, in a way that makes sence to me.
So Solo work, Wep WF both weps, drop Strenght of Earth (+str and +agi), Windfury (wep haste), Fire tot (searing), and.... well I get a little lost as to what the cookie cutter is here, but I usually plop a mana tot down (if I remember). That good?
Again thank you for taking the time to explain it, in a way that makes sence to me.
flame tongue totem will help too, more spell damage and more dps for your melee and casters in your group.
Scholar
38 posts
I went to the effort to get Legacy, to try and PvP with a good 2H weapon.
While its not very effective in most situations, switching to my 2H to one shot a ****** geared priest in WSG with huge WF crits is just plain funny.
I got ahold of 2 good 1H weaps too, but ill forever have a 2H weap in my packs for the right moment.
^_^
While its not very effective in most situations, switching to my 2H to one shot a ****** geared priest in WSG with huge WF crits is just plain funny.
I got ahold of 2 good 1H weaps too, but ill forever have a 2H weap in my packs for the right moment.
^_^
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