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What should defense rating be now?Follow
Now that the patch is here, Crits are gone from all mobs? And did the defense level low? 490 was before patch, i have heard several in game chat say it is now 470. Just wondering if this is correct. Talking pally tanks here :)
42 posts
That's right They swapped one of the talents from defence to parry, which is good in it's way. But you don't need to be uncrushable anymore as the bosses hit like gnats now, I tanked Kara last night with no change in gear or anything and prince barely hurt me, but if u're not that confident a couple of gems will fix the defense. Also start looking at strength more, we're no longer as spell power dependent as before.
OH, I know it is very easy now ( well kara is ). Single tanked the entire thing wednesday night, full clear little over 2 hours. I'm sure once WotLK comes out, new numbers will be updated. Thanks for the reply.
Everything I've read/seen/tested indicates 490 is still the # to be uncrittable. However, you can reach that with a mix of tanking/avoidance gear and ret pvp gear as resil will also make you uncrittable. Mobs can and do still crit but Uncrushable is not an issue atm as mobs need to be 4+ lvls above you to crush.
Defense was changed to dodge, parry is still in the ret tree(moved to tier 1).
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That's right They swapped one of the talents from defence to parry
Defense was changed to dodge, parry is still in the ret tree(moved to tier 1).
hamletarcher wrote:
Now that the patch is here, Crits are gone from all mobs? And did the defense level low? 490 was before patch, i have heard several in game chat say it is now 470. Just wondering if this is correct. Talking pally tanks here :)
CRUSHES are all gone, not crits. And mahlerite is right, the uncrittable mark is still 490, it's just a little tougher to get that number since Anticipation was changed to 5% dodge from 20 Defense Skill.
Crushes are gone, and 490 defense is still uncrittable. I had 493 after the patch, so all I got was a dodge buff.
Or you can go for the old uncrushable number and be uncrittable that way. Bosses can not crit on a block the way players can. If you have 102.4% mitigation, you can't be crit.
Or you can go for the old uncrushable number and be uncrittable that way. Bosses can not crit on a block the way players can. If you have 102.4% mitigation, you can't be crit.
Scholar
32 posts
So if I have 466 defense and ~105% mitigation, I am uncrittable at least until the expansion comes out right?
105% with Holy Shield up?
Then yes. You're uncrittable. Just keep up holy shield.
Then yes. You're uncrittable. Just keep up holy shield.
No, no, no, no, and no! Holy Shield does NOTHING for reducing crits. Let me repeat that: Holy SHield does NOTHING for reducing crits!
Holy Shield helped with CRUSHES which are no longer in game. 466 Defense, regardless of your avoidance, still makes you susceptible to critical hits.
Holy Shield helped with CRUSHES which are no longer in game. 466 Defense, regardless of your avoidance, still makes you susceptible to critical hits.
OMG, I'm so confused reading over all this... so I feel the need to clear the air.
1) I do not know what the new math is on Defence to prevent a Critial Hit.
2) I heard they took away Crushing Blows so that your avoidance no longer needs to be 102.4% but there is no offical # out yet. So try to keep it high, but focus on your defence, as 490 is still a viable goal (get this and when the offical # comes out you should be damn close).
Ahh, where is my confusion?
hamletarcher
Crits? NO. Crushing Blows.
mahlerite
490, uncrit? think so (not sure on the # but I know it's still defence. Mobs can't crush because they removed crushing blows.
ehcks
Avoidance doesn't make you uncrit.
To quote the def/mig sticky (yeah, it's 2.x but the terms are what i'm going for here, not the #'s)
Logic says: (if 490 is still the magic #) that we keep a 490 defence skill we are unCritable. The took away crushing blows all together (so I've heard for months now) so we don't have a magic avoidance # anymore and you can ignore it (though it's always nice to see them Miss, Dodge,
get parried, or blocked... which is what avoidance is all about).
Thanks for reading!
Edit, What are the magic #'s... sorry, I don't know those yet. But as mahlerite said,, so to answer the question at hand, 490 and 102.4% is still the hot #'s.
Edited, Oct 19th 2008 7:30pm by Simskin
1) I do not know what the new math is on Defence to prevent a Critial Hit.
2) I heard they took away Crushing Blows so that your avoidance no longer needs to be 102.4% but there is no offical # out yet. So try to keep it high, but focus on your defence, as 490 is still a viable goal (get this and when the offical # comes out you should be damn close).
Ahh, where is my confusion?
hamletarcher
Quote:
Crits are gone from all mobs? And did the defense level low?
mahlerite
Quote:
Everything I've read/seen/tested indicates 490 is still the # to be uncrittable. However, you can reach that with a mix of tanking/avoidance gear and ret pvp gear as resil will also make you uncrittable. Mobs can and do still crit but Uncrushable is not an issue atm as mobs need to be 4+ lvls above you to crush.
ehcks
Quote:
105% with Holy Shield up?
Then yes. You're uncrittable. Just keep up holy shield.
Then yes. You're uncrittable. Just keep up holy shield.
To quote the def/mig sticky (yeah, it's 2.x but the terms are what i'm going for here, not the #'s)
Quote:
Preventing Critical Hit:
Critical Hit% = 5% + ((Attacker's Weapon Skill) - (Defender's Defense Skill)) * 0,04%
For the average mob or character, both Weapon Skill and Defense Skill are 5*lvl. So if both the attacker and defender are of equal level, without bonuses to Weapon Skill or Defense Skill, the Critical Hit chance is 5%. Bosses are always considered 3 levels higher than you, so their Weapon Skill is 15 higher than your default Defense Skill, which raises the Critical Hit chance by 0.6% (to 5.6%).
By raising the Defense Skill high enough to reduce this chance by 5.6%, the Critical Hit chance from bosses is reduced to 0%. This requires 140 additional Defense Skill (which, at level 70, brings you to 490 Defense Skill).
Critical Hit% = 5% + ((Attacker's Weapon Skill) - (Defender's Defense Skill)) * 0,04%
For the average mob or character, both Weapon Skill and Defense Skill are 5*lvl. So if both the attacker and defender are of equal level, without bonuses to Weapon Skill or Defense Skill, the Critical Hit chance is 5%. Bosses are always considered 3 levels higher than you, so their Weapon Skill is 15 higher than your default Defense Skill, which raises the Critical Hit chance by 0.6% (to 5.6%).
By raising the Defense Skill high enough to reduce this chance by 5.6%, the Critical Hit chance from bosses is reduced to 0%. This requires 140 additional Defense Skill (which, at level 70, brings you to 490 Defense Skill).
Logic says: (if 490 is still the magic #) that we keep a 490 defence skill we are unCritable. The took away crushing blows all together (so I've heard for months now) so we don't have a magic avoidance # anymore and you can ignore it (though it's always nice to see them Miss, Dodge,
get parried, or blocked... which is what avoidance is all about).
Thanks for reading!
Edit, What are the magic #'s... sorry, I don't know those yet. But as mahlerite said,
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the entire tanking mechanics have been changed, and I haven't seen any evidence that they have
Edited, Oct 19th 2008 7:30pm by Simskin
Quote:
No, no, no, no, and no! Holy Shield does NOTHING for reducing crits. Let me repeat that: Holy SHield does NOTHING for reducing crits!
Holy Shield helped with CRUSHES which are no longer in game. 466 Defense, regardless of your avoidance, still makes you susceptible to critical hits
Holy Shield helped with CRUSHES which are no longer in game. 466 Defense, regardless of your avoidance, still makes you susceptible to critical hits
Really? So i can have a blocked crit now? I'll let you know when i see one of those in my combat log, lol.
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From wowwiki : If the total combined chance of a miss, dodge, parry, or block is 100%(for lvl 70 mob, 102.4 for lvl 73) or higher (as in the case of a well-geared warrior using Shield Block), not only can the attack not be an ordinary hit, the attack also cannot be a crit or a crushing blow.
For mob and white-damage melee attacks, there is no such thing as a blocked crushing blow, a parried crit, a missed glancing blow, etc.. All of these possible attack results are mutually exclusive.
For mob and white-damage melee attacks, there is no such thing as a blocked crushing blow, a parried crit, a missed glancing blow, etc.. All of these possible attack results are mutually exclusive.
This means if you were at 102.4% avoidance prior to the patch you pushed all potential hits/crits/crushes off the table, the only options were miss, dodge, parry and block. Unless the entire tanking mechanics have been changed, and I haven't seen any evidence that they have, the removal of crushing blows doesn't change the fact the you're still uncrittable at 102.4% avoidance when fighting a raid boss, provided you are always facing the boss and HS never drops(Or the boss has some kind of ability that reduces your avoidance).
I'm not advocating that you don't get to 5.6% passive crit reduction. Whether that's thru 490 def or some combo of def+resil doesn't really matter, just pointing out that unless some game mechanics have changed, avoidance can still make you uncrittable(example - rogues tanking gruul by reaching 102.4% from dodge, miss and parry alone)
If game mechanics have changed then we all need to know about it so please correct me as i haven't been able to tank more than 6-7 instances since the patch went live.
Edited, Oct 19th 2008 9:20pm by mahlerite
Scholar
32 posts
Everyone's giving conflicting info :(.
Are there any blue posts addressing the topic of any changes in crits and crushes?
Are there any blue posts addressing the topic of any changes in crits and crushes?
Attack table goes like this:
Miss
Dodge
Parry (It doesn't matter the order for these three. You will never have 102.4% of just these.)
Block
Crit
Crush (Only for mobs 4+ levels higher)
Hit
If all attacks fit the first four sections, you CAN NOT be crit by PvE mobs. PvE mobs can not do crits on blocked attacks. Player characters can, but that's entirely separate.
And now I just want to remove this because someone explained it already.
Mostly, I very much don't want to see tanks gearing up with resilience and mountains of stam thinking they can tank things. Even druids try to get some nice dodge.
Edited, Oct 19th 2008 11:52pm by Ehcks
Miss
Dodge
Parry (It doesn't matter the order for these three. You will never have 102.4% of just these.)
Block
Crit
Crush (Only for mobs 4+ levels higher)
Hit
If all attacks fit the first four sections, you CAN NOT be crit by PvE mobs. PvE mobs can not do crits on blocked attacks. Player characters can, but that's entirely separate.
And now I just want to remove this because someone explained it already.
Mostly, I very much don't want to see tanks gearing up with resilience and mountains of stam thinking they can tank things. Even druids try to get some nice dodge.
Edited, Oct 19th 2008 11:52pm by Ehcks
Sorry probably was misleading, so thanks for clearing up my mess :)
Fact remains though if you use avoidance to push crits off (Holy Shield in this example), once your charges are gone or for some reason you can't refresh Holy Shield (silences) you can then be crit anyway. So what is the point of using an avoidance spell instead of just going ahead and getting the 490 Defense to make sure crits can't happen at all, independent of avoidance?
Fact remains though if you use avoidance to push crits off (Holy Shield in this example), once your charges are gone or for some reason you can't refresh Holy Shield (silences) you can then be crit anyway. So what is the point of using an avoidance spell instead of just going ahead and getting the 490 Defense to make sure crits can't happen at all, independent of avoidance?
Maulgak wrote:
Sorry probably was misleading, so thanks for clearing up my mess :)
Fact remains though if you use avoidance to push crits off (Holy Shield in this example), once your charges are gone or for some reason you can't refresh Holy Shield (silences) you can then be crit anyway. So what is the point of using an avoidance spell instead of just going ahead and getting the 490 Defense to make sure crits can't happen at all, independent of avoidance?
Fact remains though if you use avoidance to push crits off (Holy Shield in this example), once your charges are gone or for some reason you can't refresh Holy Shield (silences) you can then be crit anyway. So what is the point of using an avoidance spell instead of just going ahead and getting the 490 Defense to make sure crits can't happen at all, independent of avoidance?
Probably because A) Being uncrittable through avoidance makes just about every attack give you back mana through Blessing of Sanctuary and B) may allow you to stack more threat gear in some circumstances. Generally speaking it's probably rather more feasible to become uncrittable through defense, but those people who were previously uncrushable can afford to lose a bit of defense now in favor of threat stats.
Scholar
27 posts
Did they really removed the whole Crushing Blow mechanism? I understood they simply made the raidbosses 1 level lower, so they would not be 3+ (or 4+, not sure) levels above you. In other words, you should be still crushable if you take up a raidboss at lvl 69?
They didn't lower the raid boss level, they increased the crushing level.
74s crush. Raid bosses automatically count as +3 levels, and can't crush anything.
74s crush. Raid bosses automatically count as +3 levels, and can't crush anything.
Scholar
32 posts
Anyone that is on Beta, what is the minimum DEF for lvl 80 for uncrit? Just curious so that while leveling when the expansion hits soon, I know what the new magic number to strive for is.
Edited, Oct 20th 2008 11:19am by dwarorc
Edited, Oct 20th 2008 11:19am by dwarorc
Well that's just simple math. 400 defense will be the normal max. Raid bosses are 3 levels higher than you and so have a base 5.6% crit rate. You need 140 defense to remove that, so the new uncrittable is 540 defense.
I had 517 before the patch. Knocked me down to 493. The biggest change is the more than double requirements for most combat ratings.
You just watch. Level up once and all your ratings, like hit, defense, dodge, crit.. will drop their bonus by about 10%.
Edited, Oct 20th 2008 2:07pm by Ehcks
I had 517 before the patch. Knocked me down to 493. The biggest change is the more than double requirements for most combat ratings.
You just watch. Level up once and all your ratings, like hit, defense, dodge, crit.. will drop their bonus by about 10%.
Edited, Oct 20th 2008 2:07pm by Ehcks
I am tempted to give the usual /2 answer to this and say "At LEAST 9000!"
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