Howdy folks.
Like many of us, I'm toying around with spreadsheets trying various combat builds around the 5/51/5 model to try out tonight, and I'd like to hear from deep combat rogues who have been raiding in the PTR.
I was always a fan of the 16/45/0 fist/sword build until I got the SSC sword. (I have both Badge Fists, as well as the ZA off-hand sword, and the S2 off-hand sword). When I got the Talon, I went back to a traditional 20/41 combat swords.
With the introduction of Prey on the Weak, it seems that crit has become a bit more important for a Combat raiding spec, and right now, I'm stuck:
Do you guys and gals find that KS is really worth the point for raiding, or do you think better DPS would be achieved by getting both 5/5 Sword Spec AND 5/5 Close Quarters combat? Currently, it appears to me that the spreadsheet puts a bit of overweight on KS. And if KS is really worth it, the Spreadsheet I'm using doesn't show a large margin of difference between using 4/5 Sword Spec vs 4/5 Close Quarters... would you guys have a preference?
And I also have a question with regards to Mutilate. Since it appears I can no longer avoid speccing mut over the next few days so that my raid leader can have the option of bringing me Combat or Mut, I'm wondering if some of you who have raided Mut on the PTR could tell me which of these daggers I'd want to use. (I've read the brief discussion in two threads here which mostly talked about the badge daggers, and more importantly, about dagger speeds, but I haven't walked away with a conclusive answer as to which would be best, especially for my off-hand.) I currently have the ZA daggers (Bad Mojo, Prowler's Strikeblade, Umbral Shiv), and the Magister's Dagger, which I just kept around because of its ridiculous speed. Which of these should I keep / enchant / use for a muti spec, or should I get one of the badge daggers? How reliable are the current spreadsheets as far as taking into account dagger speeds?
Thanks in advance for your thoughts,
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Fist/Sword, go 5/5 - 5/5 or KS?Follow
You're an idiot.
You have both badge fists and you want to use a S2 sword OH?
Good God.
You have both badge fists and you want to use a S2 sword OH?
Good God.
9 posts
Last I looked, the sword specialization talent compensated for the inferior S2 or ZA sword off-hand with respect to the badge OH.
There's about 5 topics about 3.x specs at the top of the forum.
You should have been able to see those before you made this topic, and I'm quite sure that you could have ound all the answers you're looking for before you even started typing this topic.
As for Theo, he might be a cruel sadistic ***, but he's also usually right.
Edited, Oct 15th 2008 1:31am by Aethien
You should have been able to see those before you made this topic, and I'm quite sure that you could have ound all the answers you're looking for before you even started typing this topic.
As for Theo, he might be a cruel sadistic ***, but he's also usually right.
Edited, Oct 15th 2008 1:31am by Aethien
You might want to download a spreadsheet, because that's NEVER been the case.
Might as well derail thisthread to something semi-useful.
So explain to me the whole deal with rogue weapons.
What to look for and how important is it.
I know what used to count for hunters (a.k.a. the right speed makes an early kara weapon outperform nearly everything else) and how it works now (weapon dps/stats is all that counts) but I'm not sure what the deal is for rogues.
Or is that in the rogue faq somewhere too?
Oh yeah, and what is the exact mechanic for energy regeneration.
So explain to me the whole deal with rogue weapons.
What to look for and how important is it.
I know what used to count for hunters (a.k.a. the right speed makes an early kara weapon outperform nearly everything else) and how it works now (weapon dps/stats is all that counts) but I'm not sure what the deal is for rogues.
Or is that in the rogue faq somewhere too?
Oh yeah, and what is the exact mechanic for energy regeneration.
9 posts
Ehh, I routinely use two spreadsheets, (Aldriana's and Dontmindme's), and at no point (taking into consideration raid buffs) did I get the unequivocal answer that 20/41 combat fists > 16/45 fist/sword -- keeping in mind that I'm human (WeX bonus).
Just loaded up RogueDPS_2_4_2.xls:
DPS for 16/45/0 Badge Fist / S2 Sword = 1250.98
DPS for 20/41/0 Badge Fist / Badge Fist = 1246.27
Just loaded up RogueDPS_2_4_2.xls:
DPS for 16/45/0 Badge Fist / S2 Sword = 1250.98
DPS for 20/41/0 Badge Fist / Badge Fist = 1246.27
Aethien wrote:
Might as well derail thisthread to something semi-useful.
So explain to me the whole deal with rogue weapons.
What to look for and how important is it.
I know what used to count for hunters (a.k.a. the right speed makes an early kara weapon outperform nearly everything else) and how it works now (weapon dps/stats is all that counts) but I'm not sure what the deal is for rogues.
Or is that in the rogue faq somewhere too?
Oh yeah, and what is the exact mechanic for energy regeneration.
So explain to me the whole deal with rogue weapons.
What to look for and how important is it.
I know what used to count for hunters (a.k.a. the right speed makes an early kara weapon outperform nearly everything else) and how it works now (weapon dps/stats is all that counts) but I'm not sure what the deal is for rogues.
Or is that in the rogue faq somewhere too?
Oh yeah, and what is the exact mechanic for energy regeneration.
For the most part (and most specs except maybe the new mutilate), you want a slow main-hand (more accurately a weapon that hits very hard per hit but I'm sure you know what I mean) and a fast off-hand. The slow main-hand weapon makes for harder hitting instant attacks (Hemo, SS, etc) and the fast off-hand makes for more poison procs and (in the case of Focused Attacks and Combat potency) more energy.
Rogue energy currently works as such, 20 points every other second. You can increase the number of Energy points you have through Vigor (+10) and/or the 4-piece set bonus to Gladiator armor (also +10). Your energy can replenished faster through certain skills like Adrenaline Rush (basically doubles your energy generation for 15 seconds) and talents such as Relentless Strikes, Focused Attacks, and Combat Potency.
Energy will soon be changed to regenerate 1 point every .1 seconds (which is the same amount over time, just much smoother.)
Aldriana has admitted that his public sheet is out of date and is currently using a custom one (unavailable to us pleebs) and Vulajins (check for correct version).
From my personal calculations (read: probably slightly flawed) I can't switch from Combat Badge Fists to any swords until they top 100 DPS (just a rough guide, the actual damage range is what I use to calculate). Which leaves me waiting for Savagery to drop to go with Infamy. But until then, badge fists seem to always win out in my gear (4t6/badge). Just wish I had checked those calculations before I ground out the s2 off-hand. Doh! =P
With all that said, I'd check with Vulajin's sheet for the most accurate model available as far as I know. You're millage may vary.
*edit: For combat you want the highest average damage weapon in your main-hand (usually a slower speed) and the fastest off-hand (for Combat Potency and Poison procs).
Edited, Oct 14th 2008 7:20pm by TherionSaysWhat
From my personal calculations (read: probably slightly flawed) I can't switch from Combat Badge Fists to any swords until they top 100 DPS (just a rough guide, the actual damage range is what I use to calculate). Which leaves me waiting for Savagery to drop to go with Infamy. But until then, badge fists seem to always win out in my gear (4t6/badge). Just wish I had checked those calculations before I ground out the s2 off-hand. Doh! =P
With all that said, I'd check with Vulajin's sheet for the most accurate model available as far as I know. You're millage may vary.
*edit: For combat you want the highest average damage weapon in your main-hand (usually a slower speed) and the fastest off-hand (for Combat Potency and Poison procs).
Edited, Oct 14th 2008 7:20pm by TherionSaysWhat
I spent some quite time playing with the 0.41BC roguecraft spreadsheet, and the best combination of talents and PvE weapons for 5/51/5 combat that I could find for my current progress was:
Venir's right fist + Savagery, with 5 in close combat and 4 in swords.
Trying to steal 1 point from somewhere to have 5 in swords was always lowering expected DPS. Do take KS - it is amazing on trash, and pretty good for bosses too - I have WWS from only 2 kills at the moment, but KS damage on the Council shows 2% of total, and on Illidan 5% (this is a fight with breaks, so abilities have time to cool down).
Without BoS, the left Vanir's fist is the best next (and you don't have the problem with talent points any more).
Interesting enough, Infamy dropped out of the picture completely - it does not compete with Vanir's any more in any combination.
Oh, btw, the best cycle (out of the ones precoded in the spreadsheet) was 5s/5r/5e.
Edited, Oct 27th 2008 4:25pm by Wytryszek
Edited, Oct 27th 2008 4:26pm by Wytryszek
Venir's right fist + Savagery, with 5 in close combat and 4 in swords.
Trying to steal 1 point from somewhere to have 5 in swords was always lowering expected DPS. Do take KS - it is amazing on trash, and pretty good for bosses too - I have WWS from only 2 kills at the moment, but KS damage on the Council shows 2% of total, and on Illidan 5% (this is a fight with breaks, so abilities have time to cool down).
Without BoS, the left Vanir's fist is the best next (and you don't have the problem with talent points any more).
Interesting enough, Infamy dropped out of the picture completely - it does not compete with Vanir's any more in any combination.
Oh, btw, the best cycle (out of the ones precoded in the spreadsheet) was 5s/5r/5e.
Edited, Oct 27th 2008 4:25pm by Wytryszek
Edited, Oct 27th 2008 4:26pm by Wytryszek
natslive wrote:
Just loaded up RogueDPS_2_4_2.xls
I'm just fists/fists right now in a quick switch back to combat, but I might respec fist/sword tonight for fun. I'm enjoying fist+Sinister strike rune a lot. Seems overpowered for a rune, but I'm not saying anything! Took 5/5 relentless strikes since the extra combo points (and it does proc often) means lots of finishing moves.
(somehow my post ended up on main, added text so post isn't duplicate, and waiting for it to show up so I can remove it, since its not showing up)
Also, I'm playing around with talent builds at work. Trying to figure out where to take a point or two from to make it work. What combat fist+sword are others doing?
EJ isn't coming up( Database error: The database has encountered a problem.) so I can't try to spreadsheet, but with the T4 set bonus, maybe a point out of improved SnD instead? Do quicker rotations and take both 5 close quarters and 5 swords, and KS.
As I said I can't try it here at work, that might make the SnD duration way too short.
Or maybe glyph for SnD, full 5/5 CQ, 5/5 sword, KS vs taking a point out of one of those, a glyph for something else, and full imp. SnD.
The last consideration is taking the point from precision, but that's frightening to me, as I'm not quite hit capped yet.
Edited, Oct 28th 2008 10:59am by digitalcraft
(somehow my post ended up on main, added text so post isn't duplicate, and waiting for it to show up so I can remove it, since its not showing up)
Also, I'm playing around with talent builds at work. Trying to figure out where to take a point or two from to make it work. What combat fist+sword are others doing?
EJ isn't coming up( Database error: The database has encountered a problem.) so I can't try to spreadsheet, but with the T4 set bonus, maybe a point out of improved SnD instead? Do quicker rotations and take both 5 close quarters and 5 swords, and KS.
As I said I can't try it here at work, that might make the SnD duration way too short.
Or maybe glyph for SnD, full 5/5 CQ, 5/5 sword, KS vs taking a point out of one of those, a glyph for something else, and full imp. SnD.
The last consideration is taking the point from precision, but that's frightening to me, as I'm not quite hit capped yet.
Edited, Oct 28th 2008 10:59am by digitalcraft
digitalcraft wrote:
I'm just fists/fists right now in a quick switch back to combat, but I might respec fist/sword tonight for fun. I'm enjoying fist+Sinister strike rune a lot. Seems overpowered for a rune, but I'm not saying anything! Took 5/5 relentless strikes since the extra combo points (and it does proc often) means lots of finishing moves.
(somehow my post ended up on main, added text so post isn't duplicate, and waiting for it to show up so I can remove it, since its not showing up)
Also, I'm playing around with talent builds at work. Trying to figure out where to take a point or two from to make it work. What combat fist+sword are others doing?
EJ isn't coming up( Database error: The database has encountered a problem.) so I can't try to spreadsheet, but with the T4 set bonus, maybe a point out of improved SnD instead? Do quicker rotations and take both 5 close quarters and 5 swords, and KS.
As I said I can't try it here at work, that might make the SnD duration way too short.
Or maybe glyph for SnD, full 5/5 CQ, 5/5 sword, KS vs taking a point out of one of those, a glyph for something else, and full imp. SnD.
The last consideration is taking the point from precision, but that's frightening to me, as I'm not quite hit capped yet.
Edited, Oct 28th 2008 10:59am by digitalcraft
(somehow my post ended up on main, added text so post isn't duplicate, and waiting for it to show up so I can remove it, since its not showing up)
Also, I'm playing around with talent builds at work. Trying to figure out where to take a point or two from to make it work. What combat fist+sword are others doing?
EJ isn't coming up( Database error: The database has encountered a problem.) so I can't try to spreadsheet, but with the T4 set bonus, maybe a point out of improved SnD instead? Do quicker rotations and take both 5 close quarters and 5 swords, and KS.
As I said I can't try it here at work, that might make the SnD duration way too short.
Or maybe glyph for SnD, full 5/5 CQ, 5/5 sword, KS vs taking a point out of one of those, a glyph for something else, and full imp. SnD.
The last consideration is taking the point from precision, but that's frightening to me, as I'm not quite hit capped yet.
Edited, Oct 28th 2008 10:59am by digitalcraft
Fist/sword is not better than fist/fist. Ever.
It takes too many points out of DPS talents.
So far I agree and can't see what you can really lose for all 5 sword points. 5% extra swing chance for energy does seem nice though.
digitalcraft wrote:
So far I agree and can't see what you can really lose for all 5 sword points. 5% extra swing chance for energy does seem nice though.
For energy? OH sword spec procs MH swings.
It's the whole point of fist/sword; your OH sword will proc a MH swing that has +5% crit.
The only thing you could possibly take out of this spec is Endurance/Imp Sprint, both of which are too useful in boss fights to get rid of.
Overlord Theophany wrote:
digitalcraft wrote:
So far I agree and can't see what you can really lose for all 5 sword points. 5% extra swing chance for energy does seem nice though.
For energy? OH sword spec procs MH swings.
It's the whole point of fist/sword; your OH sword will proc a MH swing that has +5% crit.
The only thing you could possibly take out of this spec is Endurance/Imp Sprint, both of which are too useful in boss fights to get rid of.
Wooow.. I don't want to be called a nub, but I always assumed the OH procced OH. Learn something new every day I guess.
What about for humans now that we have WotF... er EMFH...
Use Vulajin's spreadsheet. I have it linked in the sticky (in the WotLK spec section). Expertise gives more weight to swords, but I don't think it outweighs the fist/dagger spec.
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