I just wanted to start a thread that people could use a talent calculator (like http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight or http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=j ) and ask people in beta opinions of various specs. Please make sure you state what the intent of your build is (pve dps, pvp, tanking, etc.) or else we won't be able to give you an accurate opinion.
I'll go first:
EDIT: I have changed and added a second talent calculator for those who don't like MMO-champion's and removed my initial specs as I remake them later in the thread.
Edited, Nov 3rd 2008 10:25pm by Dilbrt
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In the Blood build you haven't included Blood Worms. How come?
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
Good question, glad you asked :)
A.) bloodworms are really a leveling talent, once you're 80 and in a raid, you're more reliant on healers to keep you up.
B.) You can't control when they come out, since it's a proc. I always seem to have them when I'm at 98% health and they never seem to come out when I'm at 50% or below.
C.) They are easily one-shot by anything with an AoE. They have little to no health and 1 consecrate or one AoE fire mechanic from a boss and they're gone.
D.) Because death strike is just that good... let me explain that a bit.
My first ever stab at DK was blood spec. I recommend that to anyone learning the class because it's probably the easiest to get down your rotations. I got very used to having lots of self-healing, bloodworms included. When I switched to unholy (for the period of time I got 6+k scourge strikes at level 62) I was initially freaked out by the lack of self-healing until I really got used to watching my health bar closer and using death strike any time I was under about 75% health. Once I learned how to effectively use death strike as unholy, when I switched back to blood, I didn't need the bloodworm talents. I could use those 3 points elsewhere.
A.) bloodworms are really a leveling talent, once you're 80 and in a raid, you're more reliant on healers to keep you up.
B.) You can't control when they come out, since it's a proc. I always seem to have them when I'm at 98% health and they never seem to come out when I'm at 50% or below.
C.) They are easily one-shot by anything with an AoE. They have little to no health and 1 consecrate or one AoE fire mechanic from a boss and they're gone.
D.) Because death strike is just that good... let me explain that a bit.
My first ever stab at DK was blood spec. I recommend that to anyone learning the class because it's probably the easiest to get down your rotations. I got very used to having lots of self-healing, bloodworms included. When I switched to unholy (for the period of time I got 6+k scourge strikes at level 62) I was initially freaked out by the lack of self-healing until I really got used to watching my health bar closer and using death strike any time I was under about 75% health. Once I learned how to effectively use death strike as unholy, when I switched back to blood, I didn't need the bloodworm talents. I could use those 3 points elsewhere.
Unholy PvP http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=jZhg0zZbGGcxfo0eqRcsut
I wasn't sure of how necessary Impurity and Reaping might be, and I'd love to know current opinion on Corpse Explosion and Gargoyle. That and whether or not extra points in Unholy are better than deeper frost (imo they are) but I'd love to know the opinions of beta DK's. Thanks for the build critique!
Edited, Oct 11th 2008 11:07pm by SomnusSleeper
I wasn't sure of how necessary Impurity and Reaping might be, and I'd love to know current opinion on Corpse Explosion and Gargoyle. That and whether or not extra points in Unholy are better than deeper frost (imo they are) but I'd love to know the opinions of beta DK's. Thanks for the build critique!
Edited, Oct 11th 2008 11:07pm by SomnusSleeper
kk
Eh I can take a stab at it, but just want to forewarn you, I haven't put any effort into learning PvP specs because I haven't liked the direction PvP went years ago so I all but completely stopped PvPing.
That said, most PvP unholy builds I see don't actually bother with reaping mainly because it's a great stand there and dps long rotation talent, but most targets don't stand there and let you wail on them. I'm not sure how much you'd get to actually USE your death runes. I'd also pick up ravenous dead and fill out anticipation instead of getting necrosis. The little bit extra auto attack damage would be nice and all, but it's such a small part of your damage, the strength just would do more.
I'd also see if I could drop some excess points out of unholy and see if you can get down to rune tap in blood. From what I understand, it's one of the best talents in PvP because it has a fairly low cooldown and it scales with your max health.
That said, most PvP unholy builds I see don't actually bother with reaping mainly because it's a great stand there and dps long rotation talent, but most targets don't stand there and let you wail on them. I'm not sure how much you'd get to actually USE your death runes. I'd also pick up ravenous dead and fill out anticipation instead of getting necrosis. The little bit extra auto attack damage would be nice and all, but it's such a small part of your damage, the strength just would do more.
I'd also see if I could drop some excess points out of unholy and see if you can get down to rune tap in blood. From what I understand, it's one of the best talents in PvP because it has a fairly low cooldown and it scales with your max health.
Wow, I'm at a loss now. I really like the Blood tree and would like to dive right into it once the expansion is launched at I get to create my Death Knight, but at the same time, being able to summon and keep a ghoul pet (Undead tree) looks awesome.
I wonder if it possible to get the cake and eat it too?
I wonder if it possible to get the cake and eat it too?
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
Blood + Master of Ghouls.
It's missing Blood Gorged and Dancing Rune weapon, but having a ghoul out full time might make up for the loss of 10% damage when you're over 75% health. You won't have Dancing Rune Weapon as a RP dump, but you do have Summon Gargoyle. Don't know if that's worth the trade either.
It's missing Blood Gorged and Dancing Rune weapon, but having a ghoul out full time might make up for the loss of 10% damage when you're over 75% health. You won't have Dancing Rune Weapon as a RP dump, but you do have Summon Gargoyle. Don't know if that's worth the trade either.
According to ghostcrawler (I don't actually have a running damage meter in beta) DRW can add upwards of 200 dps by itself. That on top of the 10% extra damage done by blood gorged PLUS the expertise, I just don't think it's worth it. Ghouls are fun and all, but after a while I tend to just forget it's there. It's not like a hunter pet where you're constantly having to give it things to do (ie. kill command) it's more like having a warlock imp that you put on defensive. It attacks when you do otherwise it just stands there.
I really don't think the loss of the top blood talents is worth having a perma-ghoul. Blood can have a ghoul for a couple minutes every 5 minutes as well, and it should hit basically as hard as the unholy one would (if you spec like I did). Could you use that spec? Sure. Would it be better? Probably not.
I really don't think the loss of the top blood talents is worth having a perma-ghoul. Blood can have a ghoul for a couple minutes every 5 minutes as well, and it should hit basically as hard as the unholy one would (if you spec like I did). Could you use that spec? Sure. Would it be better? Probably not.
Dancing Rune Weapon just seems so... meh to me. Sure, having a dancing weapon attack your target for 10 seconds, plus whatever your Runic Power adds up to, is a nice little "lulz" feature, and I'm sure it's nice for raiding as well, but I don't have a lot of time to dedicate to the game, so I mostly quest and do Battlegrounds. The DRW would be one of those in-your-face cooldowns, like The Beast Within, Presence of Mind, etc. Provided I don't get stunned, or whatever, while the DRW is out, because I'm assuming it will not attack if the Death Knight is incapacitated.
Having a pet ghoul might not be worth it from a DPS point of view, but the fun factor, for me at least, would be up there. I'd much rather have my own little minion to control than a temporary burst of DPS every three minutes. Not being able to get Blood Gorged is a quite heavy loss, at least for questing. In Battlegrounds I'm guessing most people will home in on the guy with the ghoul so my health will probably be below 75% most of the time.
Thanks for the build, Astarin.
Having a pet ghoul might not be worth it from a DPS point of view, but the fun factor, for me at least, would be up there. I'd much rather have my own little minion to control than a temporary burst of DPS every three minutes. Not being able to get Blood Gorged is a quite heavy loss, at least for questing. In Battlegrounds I'm guessing most people will home in on the guy with the ghoul so my health will probably be below 75% most of the time.
Thanks for the build, Astarin.
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
That's true, it is a burst damage effect. I can tell you from experience though when most classes see a permaghoul, it's the first thing they go after. And it goes down fairly quick. It doesn't have NEAR the hit points of a hunter pet. Then again, I guess it'd be personal preference. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that spec though.
Someone just posted this spec as a PvP spec, it looks more like what I'd suggest:
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight=2305001403000000000000000000050500100000000000000000000230232030103115050141003100100
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight=2305001403000000000000000000050500100000000000000000000230232030103115050141003100100
Mazra wrote:
Having a pet ghoul might not be worth it from a DPS point of view, but the fun factor, for me at least, would be up there. I'd much rather have my own little minion to control than a temporary burst of DPS every three minutes.
I pretty much agree with that. If the only addition the talent made was to let you control the ghoul but with it still on the same timer as other DK's, I'd just ignore it. But having that ghoul minion all the time seems pretty saucy from a lore/fun point of view while fighting. Missing out on the Blood Gorged talent, though, would probably be a huge sacrifice.
I guess we could just wait two years, for the next expansion, when we get more talent points for spending to be able to pull this off. At least we get to rise from the dead as a ghoul when we're killed now.
Nice specs you've come up with. My specs Ive been playing with are very similar to what you have.
I'm using the 51/13/7 Blood spec for PVE DPS with the following rotation:
IT > PS > HS > HS > OB > RP > RP > OB > HS > HS > HS > HS > RP > RP
IT = Icy Touch
PS = Plague Strike
HS = Heart Strike
OB = Obliterate
RP = Runic Power Dump (usually Death Coil)
IT > PS > HS > HS > OB > RP > RP > OB > HS > HS > HS > HS > RP > RP
IT = Icy Touch
PS = Plague Strike
HS = Heart Strike
OB = Obliterate
RP = Runic Power Dump (usually Death Coil)
kk let's get to work on this.
1.) Bloodworms aren't worth it for a level 80 PvE build. Unless you're doing nothing but farming, chances are good you will be in a group with a healer. BWs seem to come out when you least need them, and are never out when you actually DO need them. With a healer, those points are just better off elsewhere.
2.) Frost sub-spec. Annihilation is good, I'll admit. However you are spending 10 point to get those 3.
For 3% crit and the extra couple of seconds of disease time you are giving up:
-5% strength
-2% stamina
-10% damage to all auto attacks
-Blood Caked Blade (which, once they fix, will be a good chunk of damage)
Is 3% crit and a couple extra seconds of disease up-time worth this? I personally say no, but I won't tell you that annihilation is bad either.
3.) You don't have bloody vengeance. The main thing about blood is nearly all the damage it does is pure physical. BS is physical, Oblit is physical, FS has a physical component, PS has a physical component, Death Strike is physical, Heart Strike is physical. Why would you not want 3% increased damage to all physical?
1.) Bloodworms aren't worth it for a level 80 PvE build. Unless you're doing nothing but farming, chances are good you will be in a group with a healer. BWs seem to come out when you least need them, and are never out when you actually DO need them. With a healer, those points are just better off elsewhere.
2.) Frost sub-spec. Annihilation is good, I'll admit. However you are spending 10 point to get those 3.
For 3% crit and the extra couple of seconds of disease time you are giving up:
-5% strength
-2% stamina
-10% damage to all auto attacks
-Blood Caked Blade (which, once they fix, will be a good chunk of damage)
Is 3% crit and a couple extra seconds of disease up-time worth this? I personally say no, but I won't tell you that annihilation is bad either.
3.) You don't have bloody vengeance. The main thing about blood is nearly all the damage it does is pure physical. BS is physical, Oblit is physical, FS has a physical component, PS has a physical component, Death Strike is physical, Heart Strike is physical. Why would you not want 3% increased damage to all physical?
As it stands, nobody except a levelling DK should bother with Rune Tap, and even then Death Strike is usually a better choice. Rune Tap is completely pointless and doesnt even fit into a rotation.
For the same 'price' you can pick up extra crit or extra runes from a variety of talents.
For the same 'price' you can pick up extra crit or extra runes from a variety of talents.
Frost pvp/dps tree?
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jfVMVhzIofRxzAoGx00hZfM
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jfVMVhzIofRxzAoGx00hZfM
NeroSeekerOfSouls wrote:
Frost pvp/dps tree?
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jfVMVhzIofRxzAoGx00hZfM
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jfVMVhzIofRxzAoGx00hZfM
I think you used the previous poster's wowhead talent build, hit reset, changed talents, then forgot to click link to this build. That's why I included a link to mmo-champion's just because the link you copy is automatically updated as you change talents without clicking anything extra.
In other words, try again.
Sinstralis wrote:
As it stands, nobody except a levelling DK should bother with Rune Tap, and even then Death Strike is usually a better choice. Rune Tap is completely pointless and doesnt even fit into a rotation.
For the same 'price' you can pick up extra crit or extra runes from a variety of talents.
For the same 'price' you can pick up extra crit or extra runes from a variety of talents.
Well you can certainly make the case you don't need it for PvE dps just because you'll have healers. You SHOULD have it for PvP builds. I have it in my blood build because, honestly, I don't have a better place for that point. It was that, or corpse explosion and I'd rather rune tap.
Ups, next try then.
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jf0MZGMxzGxdMGoA0stfMG
Did I do it right this time ? ;D
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jf0MZGMxzGxdMGoA0stfMG
Did I do it right this time ? ;D
Dilbrt wrote:
kk let's get to work on this.
1.) Bloodworms aren't worth it for a level 80 PvE build. Unless you're doing nothing but farming, chances are good you will be in a group with a healer. BWs seem to come out when you least need them, and are never out when you actually DO need them. With a healer, those points are just better off elsewhere.
2.) Frost sub-spec. Annihilation is good, I'll admit. However you are spending 10 point to get those 3.
For 3% crit and the extra couple of seconds of disease time you are giving up:
-5% strength
-2% stamina
-10% damage to all auto attacks
-Blood Caked Blade (which, once they fix, will be a good chunk of damage)
Is 3% crit and a couple extra seconds of disease up-time worth this? I personally say no, but I won't tell you that annihilation is bad either.
3.) You don't have bloody vengeance. The main thing about blood is nearly all the damage it does is pure physical. BS is physical, Oblit is physical, FS has a physical component, PS has a physical component, Death Strike is physical, Heart Strike is physical. Why would you not want 3% increased damage to all physical?
1.) Bloodworms aren't worth it for a level 80 PvE build. Unless you're doing nothing but farming, chances are good you will be in a group with a healer. BWs seem to come out when you least need them, and are never out when you actually DO need them. With a healer, those points are just better off elsewhere.
2.) Frost sub-spec. Annihilation is good, I'll admit. However you are spending 10 point to get those 3.
For 3% crit and the extra couple of seconds of disease time you are giving up:
-5% strength
-2% stamina
-10% damage to all auto attacks
-Blood Caked Blade (which, once they fix, will be a good chunk of damage)
Is 3% crit and a couple extra seconds of disease up-time worth this? I personally say no, but I won't tell you that annihilation is bad either.
3.) You don't have bloody vengeance. The main thing about blood is nearly all the damage it does is pure physical. BS is physical, Oblit is physical, FS has a physical component, PS has a physical component, Death Strike is physical, Heart Strike is physical. Why would you not want 3% increased damage to all physical?
The build I posted allows me to Obliterate at any point in a cycle without losing my dieases. It also allows for a 10 ability cycle on 1 disease duration.
It is far and away ahead of any strictly blood/unholy PVE DPS build, simply because I can Oblit any time I want to.
I'm not sure if you're in the beta, but I am. I've tried it on practice dummies. 51/13/7 is the best.
In regards to bloodworms, they not only heal you, but they do damage as well so they do add a small increase to DPS. And honestly they must have changed Bloody Vengeance in a recent build and I didn't notice it, because it used to be some crap I would never take. I would amend my 51/13/7 build to this.
Imp IT is a nice talent for a blood DK to have if there are no frost DKs in the raid as it is a debuff to the enemy that will decrese the damage your tank takes. Annihilation really is THAT good. Don't believe me, try it out. Those 5 points in toughness used to be in Black Ice til it stopped affecting shadow dmg, not I put them in toughness since it synergizes a little bit with Bladed Armor (about 60 AP in level 80 blue gear) and is better than the current incarnation of Black Ice. And Epidemic is geat as well for extending your diseases to a full 10 abil length.
Bigdaddyjug wrote:
I'm not sure if you're in the beta, but I am. I've tried it on practice dummies. 51/13/7 is the best.
Yes I am on beta (see signature). I've leveled two DKs up, and have switched specs more times than I can count (still probably haven't done it enough). I'm not talking one of those premades either, I leveled from the start first DK to 71 and my second DK is almost 78. I in no way ever say that annihilation is bad. I think it is an amazing talent. However, at the same time, I think that you lose too much in other things putting points in wasted talents (and you cannot tell me that something like 60 AP would be equal to 5% strength and over 10% extra damage to auto attacks). At least with the old version of Black Ice, you increased the damage of your death coil (which you use all the time), but now from what I've seen and tried personally, it's more worth it to just give up your points in frost completely.
In addition, combat dummies are not the end-all-be-all for dps comparison. There are abilities that do not function with combat dummies, such as necrosis. Necrosis cannot overkill a target, this is confirmed by a blue. Since the targeting dummy has 1 hit point, the most necrosis can do to it is 1 point of damage. If you want a real test, go out and find a mob or something that you can beat on with your spec, then try out my spec, and compare the two. If, after trying it, you still want to go annihilation, that's perfectly fine, you'll just have a differing opinion than me, which I'm OK with.
Quote:
In regards to bloodworms, they not only heal you, but they do damage as well so they do add a small increase to DPS.
I'll give you credit for this one, because yes, they inflict damage. You may be hitting a creature for several thousand per hit, while they max hit for about 50 damage or lower (it heals you 150% of the damage it does). I don't deny that they actually do damage, but my point is they do not do enough to warrant spending 3 talent points in, where I could put those points elsewhere.
Quote:
Imp IT is a nice talent for a blood DK to have if there are no frost DKs in the raid as it is a debuff to the enemy that will decrese the damage your tank takes.
You're right, it does. However if this is make-or-break for your raid, then your tank probably has problems. It's a nice addition, but not one you should ever NEED.
Quote:
Annihilation really is THAT good. Don't believe me, try it out.
I fully admit annihilation is great. I disagree that it is worth spending 10 points in stuff that isn't that great to get it.
Quote:
Those 5 points in toughness used to be in Black Ice til it stopped affecting shadow dmg, not I put them in toughness since it synergizes a little bit with Bladed Armor (about 60 AP in level 80 blue gear) and is better than the current incarnation of Black Ice.
60 AP? I'll get between 40 and 50 AP from 5% strength, in addition to parry. Not to mention the fact that every single auto attack will be hitting for 10% extra damage, PLUS the extra damage I'll be getting from Blood Caked Blade. How would a difference of 10-15 AP make up for that? It wouldn't.
Quote:
And Epidemic is geat as well for extending your diseases to a full 10 abil length.
Preaching to the choir on this one, as my build includes epidemic. Yes I know you're about to say "what's the point of them lasting longer if I OB them off." I do not OB every rotation. Some rotations I can heart strike 4+ times in a row (due to death runes) and that is when it makes a big difference.
Edited, Oct 15th 2008 2:36pm by Dilbrt
I'd really like to know what rotation you use with that spec, as I can't imagine one where you don't use Oblit at least once out of every set of runes.
Also, Necrosis is only auto-attacks, which is well under 50% of our damage, so Necrosis is really only adding about 3-4% to your total DPS.
I wasn't trying to justify my spec with Toughness, just saying why I took it instead of other talents in the top 2 tiers of the Frost tree.
Show me the rotation you're using and I'll try the spec and rotation out.
Also, Necrosis is only auto-attacks, which is well under 50% of our damage, so Necrosis is really only adding about 3-4% to your total DPS.
I wasn't trying to justify my spec with Toughness, just saying why I took it instead of other talents in the top 2 tiers of the Frost tree.
Show me the rotation you're using and I'll try the spec and rotation out.
NeroSeekerOfSouls wrote:
Ups, next try then.
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jf0MZGMxzGxdMGoA0stfMG
Did I do it right this time ? ;D
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jf0MZGMxzGxdMGoA0stfMG
Did I do it right this time ? ;D
You happened to pick the two things I am least experienced with when it comes to talent selection, being pvp talents and frost tree (I admit I need to give frost another go). However, that said, I did some research into frost pvp builds and I came up with the following (made by other people, I take no credit):
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight=2303021503000000000000000003252500130500100321035101351000000000000000000000000000000
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jZGMetIedRIobost0gh
The things I'd nit-pick about your particular build is that you're passing up anticipation and you really can't go wrong with 5% extra dodge in pvp. You're also picking up runic power mastery, and your RP should never be high enough to use that extra RP space, so see if you can find a better place for those points. Other than that it looks pretty good.
That said, it seems from the research I've done into PvP builds (mind you, this is research, not experience. I don't care about PvP anymore.) it seems to be the general consensus that unholy really gives you better options in PvP than frost does. It's hard to pick up the stuff you need and still have points for things like rune tap (which is probably the best pvp talent DKs have). I've seen posters determined to make frost PvP builds work, and if it works for you, more power to you.
Edited, Oct 15th 2008 2:55pm by Dilbrt
Bigdaddyjug wrote:
I'd really like to know what rotation you use with that spec
I've gotten so used to doing it automatically, I have to actually think about what I use. Problem is, if you get too set on a rotation and an ability misses, it can mess up the whole rest of your rotation (hence why castsequence macros are crap for DKs) anyway.. I think it usually looks like this:
IT > PS > HS > HS > Oblit (out of runes, dump RP) IT > PS > HS > HS > HS > HS (out of runes, dump RP)
Yes, a second oblit probably would do more damage than the second IT/PS, but I like to think the other damage increasing talents more than make up for it.
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