Ya sounds to me the lightning bolt scales just horrible.
I don't even know if a spell damage talent would help that much, shamans are going to have good spell damage from just buffs as it is 275ish from flame tongue and another 280 from Totem of Wrath if spec correctly.
The problem is Lightning Bolt gets no bang for your buck, blizzard really want shaman to use flame shock in our rotation without ******** us up I am starting to think they need to completely change Storm, Earth, and Fire. Maybe make it so that flame shock has charges like storm strike that only buff the caster (like the new storm strike does). With each point in SEF flame shock gets an additional charge that can be applied to a enemy when affected by Flame Shock. Whenever an enemy takes nature or fire damage from the caster a charge would be consumed making the target take an additional 20% more damage. I would also leave on the increase range with Earth Shock for PvP sake but I might even say increase it to 15 yards but maybe now I am just being greedy.
Anyhow with a change like this then shaman would be in much better shape, a rotation of Flame Shock>Lightning BoltX3>Lava Burst would be very useful shaman would be up to par on damage, and gameplay wouldn't be as boring. Hopefully something happens soon because if Lava Burst and Flame Shock where not useful enough for shaman to add to there rotation Blizzard is going about things the wrong way by nerfing lightning bolt, make the rotation usfull if this is what you want blizzard don't make elemental shaman useless.
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#53REDACTED,
Posted: Oct 17 2008 at 11:50 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I'm saying one can't form an opinion off of one persons ill defined, poorly executed experiment. For all we know, the guy has a bone to pick due to a perception that shaman are underpowered and should be buffed, and as a result was not using lvl 80 versions of LB to prove a point. Heck, his main could very well be a shaman and he just got ticked that a moonkin appeared to be OP in the beta. And if it were a fake (I'm not saying it is, just that it might be) it's not even that elaborate and probably didn't require more than a couple of hours tops to put together.
You can find like 20938402384 more accounts of low elemental dps. Further proof, have you heard anyone say the words "Elemental shamans are too OP" or "Nerf Elemental shamans?"
I bet you've heard something along those lines for every other class except s.priest. Just go look at parses. I don't care if you believe me or not. I can post all day 100 different parses and you'll just think I picked and chose what I decided to show. Find me one parse with elemental shaman within 10% of the top DPS. I bet you can't.
You're so dumb... The guy says "I'm an elemental shaman and have no idea about boomkin, my boomkin spec is dumb, my rotation is bad." He's using the correct FS > LBx3-4 > LvB rotation. You can see the debuff of FS ... the LB, then a huge fire ball. It's pure premade gear so essentially equal gear. Then he gets on his druid and spams retarded buttons with no idea what he's doing and destroys the dps of a class he knows how to play/spec. LOL :/
FURTHERMORE they had the same buffs. Part of the video is a test between an elemental shaman and boomkin in a group sharing buffs. It just further shows that the shamans buffs will just push the boomkin ahead even more. Shaman's dps doesn't increase much from other people's buffs except CoE which .... A BOOMKIN WOULD BENEFIT FROM TOO!
How dense can you be?
Edited, Oct 17th 2008 7:39pm by Jiade
Edited, Oct 17th 2008 7:40pm by Jiade
I bet you've heard something along those lines for every other class except s.priest. Just go look at parses. I don't care if you believe me or not. I can post all day 100 different parses and you'll just think I picked and chose what I decided to show. Find me one parse with elemental shaman within 10% of the top DPS. I bet you can't.
Quote:
1. No information about the specs for any toons shown, other than the druid doesn't have eclipse.
2. Inconsistant buffs/debuffs on the toons and the target dummies. It would be a far better test if the toons had all buffs that would commonly be present in a raid environment, and the target dummy was fully debuffed for both toons. From what I remember, the shammy at the begining didn't appear to have any totems down. Also, if properly speced, the druid at the end would be getting the benefit of Earth and Moon while the shaman at the beginning wouldn't have.
3. I couldn't tell from the video quality, but were they attacking a skull level target dummy or something else?
4. The amount of time for these "dps tests" is on the short side for accuratly determining the damage.
5. Not using optimal spell rotations for either class means inaccurate results.
Now, I'm not saying that ele is fine because I still happen to think that there is not enough scaling talents to keep pace with other classes as gear improves. When I make a lvl 80 raiding build, I end up with ~5 points that will go into random locations or situational talents. A moonkin could conceivably take every single balance talent along with ~18 points in usefull resto talents if the points were avialable.
My prediction is that a talent for int/spirit-->spellpower will be created, or be tacked onto a current talent, and that should help to close the scaling gap a bit. I'd also like to see a +crit dam modifier to the nature school somewhere deep in ele, but that might be a pipe dream at this point.
Finally, to claim that we really "don't bring anything to the table except their dps or healing" is a bit false. The buff redundancy offered is also awefully nice and will prevent the loss of a key buff in case that idiot <insert class here> continues to stand in the fire and dies, thus depriving the rest of the raid of <insert buff here>.
2. Inconsistant buffs/debuffs on the toons and the target dummies. It would be a far better test if the toons had all buffs that would commonly be present in a raid environment, and the target dummy was fully debuffed for both toons. From what I remember, the shammy at the begining didn't appear to have any totems down. Also, if properly speced, the druid at the end would be getting the benefit of Earth and Moon while the shaman at the beginning wouldn't have.
3. I couldn't tell from the video quality, but were they attacking a skull level target dummy or something else?
4. The amount of time for these "dps tests" is on the short side for accuratly determining the damage.
5. Not using optimal spell rotations for either class means inaccurate results.
Now, I'm not saying that ele is fine because I still happen to think that there is not enough scaling talents to keep pace with other classes as gear improves. When I make a lvl 80 raiding build, I end up with ~5 points that will go into random locations or situational talents. A moonkin could conceivably take every single balance talent along with ~18 points in usefull resto talents if the points were avialable.
My prediction is that a talent for int/spirit-->spellpower will be created, or be tacked onto a current talent, and that should help to close the scaling gap a bit. I'd also like to see a +crit dam modifier to the nature school somewhere deep in ele, but that might be a pipe dream at this point.
Finally, to claim that we really "don't bring anything to the table except their dps or healing" is a bit false. The buff redundancy offered is also awefully nice and will prevent the loss of a key buff in case that idiot <insert class here> continues to stand in the fire and dies, thus depriving the rest of the raid of <insert buff here>.
You're so dumb... The guy says "I'm an elemental shaman and have no idea about boomkin, my boomkin spec is dumb, my rotation is bad." He's using the correct FS > LBx3-4 > LvB rotation. You can see the debuff of FS ... the LB, then a huge fire ball. It's pure premade gear so essentially equal gear. Then he gets on his druid and spams retarded buttons with no idea what he's doing and destroys the dps of a class he knows how to play/spec. LOL :/
FURTHERMORE they had the same buffs. Part of the video is a test between an elemental shaman and boomkin in a group sharing buffs. It just further shows that the shamans buffs will just push the boomkin ahead even more. Shaman's dps doesn't increase much from other people's buffs except CoE which .... A BOOMKIN WOULD BENEFIT FROM TOO!
How dense can you be?
Edited, Oct 17th 2008 7:39pm by Jiade
Edited, Oct 17th 2008 7:40pm by Jiade
I drop in here sometimes, just while browsing. It's amazing how much you guys *****. I don't want to say it's a shaman thing, but damn. You guys do nothing but complain, and then argue incessantly when someone tries to cheer you up. It's like you're all determined to be gloomy.
One of my friend's an ele shaman. He's a pretty **** PvPer, but he says he's happy with the changes, and with tossing people off cliffs and bridges. I still see enhancement shamans who tear **** up in arena matches, and that Thunderstorm spell is going to be a game-breaker in the Org arena, not to mention looking like a hell of a lot of fun. Lighten up a bit, guys.
One of my friend's an ele shaman. He's a pretty **** PvPer, but he says he's happy with the changes, and with tossing people off cliffs and bridges. I still see enhancement shamans who tear **** up in arena matches, and that Thunderstorm spell is going to be a game-breaker in the Org arena, not to mention looking like a hell of a lot of fun. Lighten up a bit, guys.
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and with tossing people off cliffs and bridges.
Speaking of which, do the Enh Spirit Wolves' attacks push you back? I'm 99% sure one of those wolves pushed me from the GM in AB yesterday.
Quote:
One of my friend's an ele shaman. He's a pretty **** PvPer, but he says he's happy with the changes, and with tossing people off cliffs and bridges. I still see enhancement shamans who tear sh*t up in arena matches, and that Thunderstorm spell is going to be a game-breaker in the Org arena, not to mention looking like a hell of a lot of fun. Lighten up a bit, guys.
If he's bad at pvp, he WOULD be happy with the changes. Anyone who is serious about pvp knows that the changes didn't change the fundamental flaws shaman has against other classes in arena. BG's DO NOT count as pvp for most people. Arena is serious pvp.
Edited, Oct 18th 2008 2:58pm by Jiade
I'm not arguing the fact that ele appears to be under-tuned at the moment, but to claim a youtube video of a very poorly defined and executed test as cannon is idiotic. Yes, work needs to be done in the ele tree (especially Tier 2, 4, and 6) and scaling needs to be addressed. However, recent posts look pretty darn hopeful, not to mention changes to glyphs.
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=11296499789&pageNo=1&sid=2000#13
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=10972137885&pageNo=3&sid=2000#53
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=11228544155&sid=2000&pageNo=2#37
Also to nitpick a bit, he isn't using a great rotation with his shammy, since weaving CL in will be better than FS LB LvB.
Have a nice day
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=11296499789&pageNo=1&sid=2000#13
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=10972137885&pageNo=3&sid=2000#53
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=11228544155&sid=2000&pageNo=2#37
Also to nitpick a bit, he isn't using a great rotation with his shammy, since weaving CL in will be better than FS LB LvB.
Have a nice day
GHost wolf can water walk and breath under water without cancelin the buffs now.
for those who dont know yet
for those who dont know yet
Quote:
I'm not arguing the fact that ele appears to be under-tuned at the moment, but to claim a youtube video of a very poorly defined and executed test as cannon is idiotic. Yes, work needs to be done in the ele tree (especially Tier 2, 4, and 6) and scaling needs to be addressed. However, recent posts look pretty darn hopeful, not to mention changes to glyphs.
-.- You are so dense.
SHOW ME A SINGLE PARSE (actual data) where Elemental Shaman is even middle of the pack in a 25 man raid (let's say within 15% of the top dps). You're gonna be looking a long time. You are arguing for the sake of arguing. It ISN'T a poorly defined test. He took TWO COMPLETE OPPOSITES.
#1. A well played, properly specced player using a proper dps rotation.
#2. A poorly played, poorly specced player using a horrible rotation.
The thing is that #2 won because Boomkin dps > elemental dps. If both classes could attain EQUAL DPS, then #1 would come out on top. Both were in purely premade gear meaning their gear level was identical. A poorly played toon should NEVER beat an equally geared toon that is played better. "Should" is not the current situation however and THAT is what upsets people.
Moreover, I don't take that video as "cannon." It DOES however accurately demonstrate in a concise and simple way the simple problems that are showing on EVERY PARSE I've seen. It's easy to see. It's easy to understand. It's well done (even if you won't take the time to actually understand the video). There isn't a shred of evidence to show the contrary. If you can find any, I'll be happy to look at it. Until then, you're just ... being dumb and not showing a single number, parse, or video of any other evidence saying that I'm wrong.
Edited, Oct 20th 2008 6:48am by Jiade
One thing I will say even though from what we are learning about elemental shaman being under in competitive damage in PvE atleast we know if needed we can respec restoration for raiding and heal in our gear (may need some mana regen though) but at least it is something we can do for raids until blizzard decides to make some changes to the elemental tree (when and if this occurs).
#62REDACTED,
Posted: Oct 20 2008 at 10:39 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Excuse me, but I'm the one that's arguing for the sake of arguing and being dense? We're both saying that ele appears to be under-tuned right now (meaning post 3.0 when compared to other dps classes). Let me spell that out as clearly as possible: as things currently stand in the beta version released to the public, we are not outputting as much dps as other classes . ZOMG, that's almost exactly what both of us have said in previous posts! Heck, we probably also agree that ele was under-tuned at the end of TBC.
TheJadeMonkey wrote:
That said however, the only thing that really matters at this juncture is the balance at lvl80 on the yet to be released live and "final" version of WOTLK. Honestly, raid encounters are completly trivialized right now, and as a result there is no need to require the absolutly max possible dps anymore just to down a boss.
That's naive conjecture and damn near close to outright denial. People min/max. That's... just the way it is. You can gauge pretty accurately how far a guild has progressed or will progress by how strict they are in their min/maxing. Hell, even PUG's min/max. To suggest that everyone is going to throw the entire tradition of min/maxing system developed over the past three and a half years of WoW out the window is absurd.
As long as two classes differ by even 1 DPS, there are going to be people who will choose between them.
Quote:
Now, a valid arguement could be made that if we weren't balanced for all of TBC, why should we trust them to "get it right" this time. I would argue that with a relatively clean slate going forward due to the change in dps class philosophy (where given equal gear/skill/favorable encounter design, class A should approximatly equal class B), there isn't really any good reason not to believe that it will be ok by the time 80 gets reached.
So basically, your view is, "There's no reason to believe that we'll be balanced in WotLK, but let's go ahead and believe it anyways for reasons I just pulled out of my ***." I'm sorry, but you're going to have to sell that somewhere else, because I don't think anyone here is buying.
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That's naive conjecture and damn near close to outright denial. People min/max. That's... just the way it is. You can gauge pretty accurately how far a guild has progressed or will progress by how strict they are in their min/maxing. Hell, even PUG's min/max. To suggest that everyone is going to throw the entire tradition of min/maxing system developed over the past three and a half years of WoW out the window is absurd.
As long as two classes differ by even 1 DPS, there are going to be people who will choose between them.
As long as two classes differ by even 1 DPS, there are going to be people who will choose between them.
You'll get a better gauge of how far a guild will progress through looking at how much people stand in the fire (or do other stupid and completly avoidable crap) as opposed to how strict they are with min/maxing dps, especially now that raid bosses all have 30% less hp. Honestly, it's like you're saying that a ele shaman doesn't deserve a raid slot. Tell that to several of the top Brutallus WWS logs then. Yea, they might not be topping the meters, but it's apparently entirely viable, maybe even favorable, to bring one along.
Quote:
So basically, your view is, "There's no reason to believe that we'll be balanced in WotLK, but let's go ahead and believe it anyways for reasons I just pulled out of my ***." I'm sorry, but you're going to have to sell that somewhere else, because I don't think anyone here is buying.
But on the other hand your view is, "There's no reason to believe that we won't be balanced in WotLK, because that's the way it used to be in TBC." We're both conjecturing about what the future will be based on incomplete current information. You choose to believe that we're screwed. Fine, you're entitled to your opinion, but I somehow highly doubt that the designers are sitting on their thumbs while thinking of new ways to make an entire spec worthless.
Quote:
You'll get a better gauge of how far a guild will progress through looking at how much people stand in the fire (or do other stupid and completly avoidable crap) as opposed to how strict they are with min/maxing dps, especially now that raid bosses all have 30% less hp. Honestly, it's like you're saying that a ele shaman doesn't deserve a raid slot. Tell that to several of the top Brutallus WWS logs then. Yea, they might not be topping the meters, but it's apparently entirely viable, maybe even favorable, to bring one along.
*sigh* YOU... ARE ... REALLY .... DENSE.
On live before 3.0, elemental shaman were brought TO BOOST THE DPS OF OTHER CASTER CLASSES. Elemental shaman + 4 dps casters was more dps than 5 higher dps casters. On live after 3.0, people are bringing the same people because they trust them and because damage output has increased overall AND boss health has decreased, thereby trivializing progression. No one cares if you kill KJ after 3.0 because ... it's nerfed. You aren't going to boot your elemental shaman for the last 4 weeks of raiding cause they suck... when bosses are even easier than they were a week ago.
WotLK content IS NOT nerfed. So, if elemental shamans stay at the bottom of the barrel all the way to 80 (as parses at 80 are showing) and don't bring unique buffs that allow them to contribute enough to warrant a place in the raid. Do you remember TBC 5 man heroics and elemental's LACK of invites because of lack of CC? It was the motto of 5 mans that your dps needed CC. The Motto for WoLK 25 mans is DPS DPS DPS. No unique buffs. No unique tanks. No unique healers. Only performance matters. If your class/spec is UNABLE to perform to a poorly played/poorly geared class because simple talent issues... don't expect to be pushing content in WotLK.
Now, I'm only stating if things stay the way they are. They could change. They've already stated they are giving Elemental a sustainable aoe spell (earthquake perhaps?). The major problem is scaling and Dev's are FINALLY aware there are problems with elemental according to O-boards. I still don't think they realize how big of an issue they have on their hands, but we can hope they fix it. I just wouldn't hold my breathe.
Edited, Oct 20th 2008 5:01pm by Jiade
/facepalm
Ok, let me get this straight...
1. We're on the same page regarding current content being trivialized from the HP nerf and dps output buffs.
2. We agree that ele appears to be undertuned currently if things stay as they currently are at lvl80.
3. We agree that the major issue which needs to be addressed is scaling.
So our arguements are essentially the same, yet you continually insist on calling me dense? People in glass houses shouldn't cast stones.
I do also happen to remember TBC 5 mans. One of the first things I did was to add several prot pallies to my friends list. My main issue however was not lack of CC and getting dropped for it, but rather lack of people on my server (low pop ftl). CC is being addressed however, even if it is just at 80, so getting that heroic spot shouldn't be as dreadfull as it was before.
The elemental tree has so much potential, but it needs work. There are so many potential parallels with the current balance tree that it's kind of scary.
What if:
Convection were a 3 point talent like Moonglow?
Call of Flame increased flame shock damage/crit chance by x% similar to Improved Moonfire?
Elemental Devestation added a spell haste component, similar to Nature's Grace?
An similar talent to Celestial Focus were added (chance to stun, + haste)?
An similar talent to Lunar Guidance (or to a lesser extent Imp Moonkin Form) was added?
A similar talent to Wrath of Cenarius were added?
A decent AoE were added (earthquake, volcano, Vashj's static shock for example)?
Yes, this is all wishfull thinking, but these are all examples of mechanics currently in the game which would be easily implemented. I don't feel like I have to ward potential shaman away from the class at this point, because I really do think that at the end of the day, the dps classes (at least at T7) will be within ~10% of each other. At that point, as long as Patchwerk goes down with your raid comp for the night, it's all gravy.
Ok, let me get this straight...
1. We're on the same page regarding current content being trivialized from the HP nerf and dps output buffs.
2. We agree that ele appears to be undertuned currently if things stay as they currently are at lvl80.
3. We agree that the major issue which needs to be addressed is scaling.
So our arguements are essentially the same, yet you continually insist on calling me dense? People in glass houses shouldn't cast stones.
I do also happen to remember TBC 5 mans. One of the first things I did was to add several prot pallies to my friends list. My main issue however was not lack of CC and getting dropped for it, but rather lack of people on my server (low pop ftl). CC is being addressed however, even if it is just at 80, so getting that heroic spot shouldn't be as dreadfull as it was before.
The elemental tree has so much potential, but it needs work. There are so many potential parallels with the current balance tree that it's kind of scary.
What if:
Convection were a 3 point talent like Moonglow?
Call of Flame increased flame shock damage/crit chance by x% similar to Improved Moonfire?
Elemental Devestation added a spell haste component, similar to Nature's Grace?
An similar talent to Celestial Focus were added (chance to stun, + haste)?
An similar talent to Lunar Guidance (or to a lesser extent Imp Moonkin Form) was added?
A similar talent to Wrath of Cenarius were added?
A decent AoE were added (earthquake, volcano, Vashj's static shock for example)?
Yes, this is all wishfull thinking, but these are all examples of mechanics currently in the game which would be easily implemented. I don't feel like I have to ward potential shaman away from the class at this point, because I really do think that at the end of the day, the dps classes (at least at T7) will be within ~10% of each other. At that point, as long as Patchwerk goes down with your raid comp for the night, it's all gravy.
TheJadeMonkey wrote:
Honestly, it's like you're saying that a ele shaman doesn't deserve a raid slot.
That's exactly what I'm saying, actually. Why bring one in WotLK? If a Boomkin can provide ~40% more DPS and homogenous buffs, why on earth would anyone bring an Elemental Shaman unless you just don't have a substitutionary class available? In that case the Shaman would get in by default, but that's hardly "viability".
Quote:
Quote:
So basically, your view is, "There's no reason to believe that we'll be balanced in WotLK, but let's go ahead and believe it anyways for reasons I just pulled out of my ***." I'm sorry, but you're going to have to sell that somewhere else, because I don't think anyone here is buying.
But on the other hand your view is, "There's no reason to believe that we won't be balanced in WotLK, because that's the way it used to be in TBC." We're both conjecturing about what the future will be based on incomplete current information. You choose to believe that we're screwed. Fine, you're entitled to your opinion, but I somehow highly doubt that the designers are sitting on their thumbs while thinking of new ways to make an entire spec worthless.
The difference being, of course, that my expectations are founded on the actual events of the past year and a half (the entirety of TBC), whereas yours are entirely hypothetical.
Quote:
What if:
That right there is the core of your entire argument. "What if...?" What if indeed. Where we're not seeing eye-to-eye here is that you seem to have concluded that "what if" will somehow directly translate into "what is" based on a completely unfounded expectation of the future because... well, by golly, that's just the logical progression.
I will believe Elemental is fine when it is fine. Until then, don't try to tell me that the balance is all sunshine and puppies.
Edited, Oct 20th 2008 6:49pm by Gaudion
TheJadeMonkey wrote:
So our arguements are essentially the same, yet you continually insist on calling me dense? People in glass houses shouldn't cast stones.
This is beginning to simmer down to an almost philosophical argument; in the absence of direct and incontrovertible evidence (ie, genuine, Live, lvl80 parses) what is it correct to assume? You're choosing to assume, based on basically nothing but faith, that the devs will balance Shaman for live. Gaudion and others are choosing to assert, based on 18 months of sustained balance problems, that it won't be quite so rosy. Opinions are opinions, but to recall your own phrase about glass houses; your own assumption is just as baseless as any other.
Non-Shaman players (or even worse, people with lvl59 Shaman alts) like to come to the Shaman forum and make snide comments about Gaudion and others who argue that the Shaman class is subpar, but can rarely come up with any solid counterpoints as to why it isnt. They just like free licks, and if experienced Shamans continue to preach a negative message it's easy to paint them as grumblers and malcontents, "the sky is falling" as Jade puts it.
Unfortunately, those people happen to be completely, 100% correct at the moment, with a video full of fairly strong evidence to that effect.
Ignoring the evidence and being blindly optimistic isnt a virtuous thing, it doesnt make you the plucky upstart with a heart of gold, it just makes you blindly optimistic.
Edited, Oct 21st 2008 12:10am by Sinstralis
Quote:
This is beginning to simmer down to an almost philosophical argument; in the absence of direct and incontrovertible evidence (ie, genuine, Live, lvl80 parses) what is it correct to assume? You're choosing to assume, based on basically nothing but faith, that the devs will balance Shaman for live.
I wouldn't say that. All classes have been fairly balanced in PvP over the past >3 years. WoW is a game that leaves others behind it because of it's incredible originality, Blizzard's communication with the players, heaps of detail and Blizzard being perfectionists. I've got utmost respect for the company because of what they put into their games. Especially compared to so many other titles out there. Some are 'nice' or 'fun to play', but few are as good as WoW. Nor is the lore of most games as good as the one in the Warcraft and Starcraft universes. Warcraft 1, 2, 3, and World Of were all highly innovative and standard-setting when they were released. And I'm not even talking about Starcraft or Diablo yet on that surface. THAT is the experience and facts I would 'assume' by.
Mozared wrote:
I wouldn't say that. All classes have been fairly balanced in PvP over the past >3 years. WoW is a game that leaves others behind it because of it's incredible originality, Blizzard's communication with the players, heaps of detail and Blizzard being perfectionists. I've got utmost respect for the company because of what they put into their games. Especially compared to so many other titles out there. Some are 'nice' or 'fun to play', but few are as good as WoW. Nor is the lore of most games as good as the one in the Warcraft and Starcraft universes. Warcraft 1, 2, 3, and World Of were all highly innovative and standard-setting when they were released. And I'm not even talking about Starcraft or Diablo yet on that surface. THAT is the experience and facts I would 'assume' by.
...
#71REDACTED,
Posted: Oct 21 2008 at 10:03 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I like your use of "assume" and "assert" there, especially considering Gaudian and others are also "assuming" that 18 months of sustained balance problems of TBC will continue forward, despite the explicitly stated Blizz goal of normalizing dps contributions. I ask, "Is it a valid extrapolation to assume that the past 1.5 years of imbalances (whether they were merely perceived or real) will continue into the future?" I would argue that if "balance" could be plotted against "time", the release of wotlk (or any major content patch for that matter) would act as a discontinuity in the function, hence any extrapolation beyond that point based on the previous curve fit would be inaccurate. Therefore, using past observations to make predictions of future performance is inherantly flawed logic in this somewhat idealized theoretical construct.
Quote:
All classes have been fairly balanced in PvP over the past >3 years.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
You lost all credibility.
Quote:
I like your use of "assume" and "assert" there, especially considering Gaudian and others are also "assuming" that 18 months of sustained balance problems of TBC will continue forward, despite the explicitly stated Blizz goal of normalizing dps contributions. I ask, "Is it a valid extrapolation to assume that the past 1.5 years of imbalances (whether they were merely perceived or real) will continue into the future?" I would argue that if "balance" could be plotted against "time", the release of wotlk (or any major content patch for that matter) would act as a discontinuity in the function, hence any extrapolation beyond that point based on the previous curve fit would be inaccurate. Therefore, using past observations to make predictions of future performance is inherantly flawed logic in this somewhat idealized theoretical construct.
-.-
This is my point.
We said, "THINGS ARE BAD FOR ELEMENTAL SHAMAN ATM."
You said, everything will be fine. Don't look at the man behind the curtain. Things will definitely change.
We said, "Look at the parses. Look at what they say, they think we're balanced."
You said, "We are balanced."
We said, "No they aren't. Look at the parses."
You said, "I think they'll improve us to make us balanced."
We said, "We hope they do the same, but we aren't balanced at the moment."
You said, "It doesn't matter, we're worth bringing anyways. Look at live WWS reports. People are bringing elemental shamans anyways. Everyone agrees elemental shaman needs improvements."
ETC ETC. I'm not arguing with you anymore. You can argue semantics all you want. You either aren't clear in your viewpoints or are too busy arguing minor theory to convey what you really mean.
Summary: We are already doing terrible dps compared to other classes on Beta and Live 3.0.2. We have NO TALENTS to make us scale with better gear meaning that the margin will get WIDER as gear progresses if changes are not made. Using live/beta WWS reports to justify elemental shaman being viable in WotLK just because they are present is ludicrous. No one is pushing content. Moreover, no one is going to exclude a loyal raider for the last 4 weeks of TBC in nerfed content. Developers have flip-flopped at least 4 times on the position of Elemental Shaman without making any changes inbetween. First we're too strong, then too weak, then too strong, then too weak (without anything changing). They've decided we're too weak again. Here's to hoping they make up their mind and realize the situation.
Edited, Oct 21st 2008 2:09pm by Jiade
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
You lost all credibility.
You lost all credibility.
Yeah, cause the occasional imbalance was never fixed (Death coil, Diminishing Returns, Hammer of Wrath). PvP has só been completely imbalanced for 3 years since there have always been 1 or 2 overpowered classes that could own everybody else. /Sarcasm
If that was such a humorous statement, tell me, which classes do you consider have completely rocked the battlefield for 3 years? Or which have been completely underpowered and useless since launch?
I'm already expecting a "healers used to suck" reply.
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Yeah, cause the occasional imbalance was never fixed (Death coil, Diminishing Returns, Hammer of Wrath). PvP has só been completely imbalanced for 3 years since there have always been 1 or 2 overpowered classes that could own everybody else. /Sarcasm
If that was such a humorous statement, tell me, which classes do you consider have completely rocked the battlefield for 3 years? Or which have been completely underpowered and useless since launch?
I'm already expecting a "healers used to suck" reply.
If that was such a humorous statement, tell me, which classes do you consider have completely rocked the battlefield for 3 years? Or which have been completely underpowered and useless since launch?
I'm already expecting a "healers used to suck" reply.
Look at which classes got invited to the blizcon tournament. Look at statistics of classes with over 2k ratings in 2's, 3's, and 5's. Shaman only reaches equal representation in 5's and is under-represented in 2's and 3's. Druids (resto) and rogues are OVER represented in every bracket. Priests are also over represented (but less so in 5's). Mages have high representation in the smaller brackets.
PVP is not balanced. It never has been.
You're talking arena. Arena RIGHT NOW. Not even arena what it's been like for the past ~year.
I'm talking "PvP" over the past 3/4 years. Basically, since WoW was released. Warlocks have been underpowered. Paladins have been underpowered. Warriors have been underpowered. Healers have been *thought* to be underpowered. Guess what, everybody's been underpowered! And 'underpowered' in this case means "somewhat lackluster due to a fairly obvious exploitable weakness". Think Warlocks before they got Death Coil fear.
All that is pre-arena; in fact, arena has only been around for a relatively small amount of the time. And even then, arena balance has never been so bad that one class is completely screwed over. Shamans are probably in the worst position right now arena wise, and it isn't anywhere near *terrible* as there are indeed good arena players around.
But even though it completely misses the point, just take a look at your own post. You basically stated 2 classes are over represented all around, one class is over represented in two brackets and another is over represented in one bracket. So basically, you've named 4 classes that are all over represented in other areas. I'd say 2 classes are under represented and 3 have 'avarage' appearance (though even that is very deputable in the case of MS warriors. And hunters. And warlocks.). So now we've basically got
A) Half the classes over represented in different kinds of areas (with the top two 'over representers' being argueably the two strongest PvP classes in the game due to their very nature)
B) 3 classes showing 'avarage' appearance
and C) 2 classes which are being under represented. Of which 1 just recieved major buffs in it's DPS tree and had it's healing tree improved somewhat.
Long story short; there's plenty of classes with an 'avarage' appearance, there is just 1 class left which is under represented in 2 brackets, and all other classes are over represented spread out over the brackets. I'd say that's a pretty good balance.
P.S. Do you always rate down people you disagree with? Disagree with without even realizing what they're trying to say, even. Pff.
I'm talking "PvP" over the past 3/4 years. Basically, since WoW was released. Warlocks have been underpowered. Paladins have been underpowered. Warriors have been underpowered. Healers have been *thought* to be underpowered. Guess what, everybody's been underpowered! And 'underpowered' in this case means "somewhat lackluster due to a fairly obvious exploitable weakness". Think Warlocks before they got Death Coil fear.
All that is pre-arena; in fact, arena has only been around for a relatively small amount of the time. And even then, arena balance has never been so bad that one class is completely screwed over. Shamans are probably in the worst position right now arena wise, and it isn't anywhere near *terrible* as there are indeed good arena players around.
But even though it completely misses the point, just take a look at your own post. You basically stated 2 classes are over represented all around, one class is over represented in two brackets and another is over represented in one bracket. So basically, you've named 4 classes that are all over represented in other areas. I'd say 2 classes are under represented and 3 have 'avarage' appearance (though even that is very deputable in the case of MS warriors. And hunters. And warlocks.). So now we've basically got
A) Half the classes over represented in different kinds of areas (with the top two 'over representers' being argueably the two strongest PvP classes in the game due to their very nature)
B) 3 classes showing 'avarage' appearance
and C) 2 classes which are being under represented. Of which 1 just recieved major buffs in it's DPS tree and had it's healing tree improved somewhat.
Long story short; there's plenty of classes with an 'avarage' appearance, there is just 1 class left which is under represented in 2 brackets, and all other classes are over represented spread out over the brackets. I'd say that's a pretty good balance.
P.S. Do you always rate down people you disagree with? Disagree with without even realizing what they're trying to say, even. Pff.
#1. I didn't rate you down. The fact you said PVP is balanced probably got you rated down because no one believes you.
#2. When people say PVP... they usually mean Arena because it is the MOST ACCURATE way to show how classes fair in PVP. Statistics are taken on it. It's not the case with BG's nor with world PVP. Sure there are people who think they rock in BG's and World PVP, but it's anecdotal. Hard numbers coming from Arenas show how classes fair.
#3. I don't know why you think healers are underpowered in PVP or why you think people think that they are. They are essential to so many comps. Rogue/Druid. Rogue/Priest. Shaman/Warrior. Those 3 were probably the most common DPS/Healer comp in 2's. Mage/Rogue was one of the most popular 2's comps. Holy Shock Pallies are actually AMAZING in 2's though it wasn't a very popular choice just because there are so few. Most anyone will tell you resto druids are among the most powerful pvp classes because they are virtually impossible to kill.
It's balanced... but people are underpowered? Classes are over or under-represented in arenas?
If things were balanced, you'd see an EXACT correlation between class representation above 2k to actual class population. This is not the case. PVP has never been balanced and it is not currently balanced. The fact that there are popular and PROLIFIC comps above 2k is because those classes are more powerful in pvp. If someone is more powerful that means someone is less powerful and thus there is imbalance.
Edited, Oct 22nd 2008 1:47am by Jiade
#2. When people say PVP... they usually mean Arena because it is the MOST ACCURATE way to show how classes fair in PVP. Statistics are taken on it. It's not the case with BG's nor with world PVP. Sure there are people who think they rock in BG's and World PVP, but it's anecdotal. Hard numbers coming from Arenas show how classes fair.
#3. I don't know why you think healers are underpowered in PVP or why you think people think that they are. They are essential to so many comps. Rogue/Druid. Rogue/Priest. Shaman/Warrior. Those 3 were probably the most common DPS/Healer comp in 2's. Mage/Rogue was one of the most popular 2's comps. Holy Shock Pallies are actually AMAZING in 2's though it wasn't a very popular choice just because there are so few. Most anyone will tell you resto druids are among the most powerful pvp classes because they are virtually impossible to kill.
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I'm talking "PvP" over the past 3/4 years. Basically, since WoW was released. Warlocks have been underpowered. Paladins have been underpowered. Warriors have been underpowered. Healers have been *thought* to be underpowered. Guess what, everybody's been underpowered! And 'underpowered' in this case means "somewhat lackluster due to a fairly obvious exploitable weakness". Think Warlocks before they got Death Coil fear
It's balanced... but people are underpowered? Classes are over or under-represented in arenas?
If things were balanced, you'd see an EXACT correlation between class representation above 2k to actual class population. This is not the case. PVP has never been balanced and it is not currently balanced. The fact that there are popular and PROLIFIC comps above 2k is because those classes are more powerful in pvp. If someone is more powerful that means someone is less powerful and thus there is imbalance.
Edited, Oct 22nd 2008 1:47am by Jiade
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