As a 70 Holy Priest, I have healed several instances with pugs. Some of them good and some of them bad. The good pugs I have no complaints about. It is those pug runs that are just outright awful; everything seems to go wrong no matter how hard we all try. My question is concering the world of WoW, what is the line in leaving the group that insists on completing the instance despite the several wipes (4 wipes or more). Normally, I politely tell them that I am leaving and good luck. I pause for a minute or two for any response. Most of the time I will get no response and the pug just insists on completing the run. That is when I leave. Of those groups that are cognizant of a fail pug, say "we cannot go any further", I am grateful for because they realize attempting another run is doomed for failure. No more waste in reagents, supplies, potions, a larger repair bill, etc.
Is my ettiquette improper or do I need to learn patience? I'd hate to leave a bad name for myself. My patience comes to an end when I know it is obvious when we are not going to complete the instance successfully. Any further elaborations on this thread would be great as I am curious what other healers experience as compared to my own. Thanks!
Kyrstenn
70 Holy Priest
Proudmoore
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Well,
First of all, if your group's average level is too low for the instance you made a bad start anyway. If I join a group for SM cathedral and there's a level 30 in the group (and no level 50 or such to make up for it) I ask the leader what he thinks he's doing. I'll politely inform both the lowbie and the leader that you cannot hope to complete SM cathedral with somebody so underlevelled for the place that he'll be 2-shot at every turn. If they insist on taking the lowbie (once again, without a higher level to make up for his level) I'll know they are plainly both bad and stubborn players, and that I don't want to group with them anyway. For heroics the same thing applies in gear. If you've got some all greenies healer you should mention that it won't work like that.
Second, if your group is levelled and geared up enough for the instance and the group set-up is alright (tank and healer are present), you should always be able to complete the instance, unless
A) You aren't levelled and geared enough anyway; this means you made a mistake at step 1. If you didn't adress the inability of a certain player you're at much at fault as the rest of the group. Unless you didn't know the instance, in which case you should have mentioned that to the other group members.
B) Your group setup is wrong; while you can generally do with for example a tank, 2 healers and 2 DPS, a group compromised of 4 (pure) tanks and 1 healer isn't going to do much good.
C) You're having 'one of those' groups where everybody is capable but you wipe a couple of times thanks to stupid accidents (bad fear, healer spilling stuff over his keyboard, etc). In these situations I usually stay, but someone else ends up leaving. I've completed plenty of runs like these though; usually the result is that you were just unlucky in the start but move trough the instance fine afterwards.
or D) You have a good old plain noob in your party who doesn't know what to do and is messing everything over. Try and watch him for a bit, then state the errors he's making (in a polite way) and tell him that he'll have to improve if you want to tackle the dungeon. From this point 2 things can happen:
-The noob will improve and you'll have a very succesfull run in which you even learned somebody something.
-The noob will start shouting at you, calling you an *sshole for criticizing the way he plays, etc. Unless the group leader kicks him, this is the point where you can safely say 'au revoir' because you can be 99.99% sure the group as it is is NEVER going to complete the instance. If you leave at this point, nobody should even dare to question your ettiquette since you were plainly right and the noob can be blamed for messing up everything. This is what you should tell people who do attack you on leaving. Ofcourse, you'll have to be 100% sure you ARE right. If you're telling a MM hunter he's being a noob for not using Bestial Wrath you have absolutely no right to speak at all.
To summarize this, it all comes down to the following 3 steps;
1) When you join a group, assure that the gear, specs, levels and group make-up are sufficient enough to do the instance. If you're not sure about the instance, you'll learn this on the go and can comment about it then; just make sure you mention that you don't know the instance.
2) You should at this point be able to complete the instance without much trouble. If you dó end up in a wipefest, observe what's going on. Is your group simply being unlucky, then stick around and try to keep the motivation up.
3) If you've observed the situation and you've noticed somebody is messing up something, politely adress them and try to improve their play. If after trying a bit he (for whatever reason) does not succeed in improving his play, you can either ask the leader for a replacement or safely leave.
At least, that's my ettiquette.
First of all, if your group's average level is too low for the instance you made a bad start anyway. If I join a group for SM cathedral and there's a level 30 in the group (and no level 50 or such to make up for it) I ask the leader what he thinks he's doing. I'll politely inform both the lowbie and the leader that you cannot hope to complete SM cathedral with somebody so underlevelled for the place that he'll be 2-shot at every turn. If they insist on taking the lowbie (once again, without a higher level to make up for his level) I'll know they are plainly both bad and stubborn players, and that I don't want to group with them anyway. For heroics the same thing applies in gear. If you've got some all greenies healer you should mention that it won't work like that.
Second, if your group is levelled and geared up enough for the instance and the group set-up is alright (tank and healer are present), you should always be able to complete the instance, unless
A) You aren't levelled and geared enough anyway; this means you made a mistake at step 1. If you didn't adress the inability of a certain player you're at much at fault as the rest of the group. Unless you didn't know the instance, in which case you should have mentioned that to the other group members.
B) Your group setup is wrong; while you can generally do with for example a tank, 2 healers and 2 DPS, a group compromised of 4 (pure) tanks and 1 healer isn't going to do much good.
C) You're having 'one of those' groups where everybody is capable but you wipe a couple of times thanks to stupid accidents (bad fear, healer spilling stuff over his keyboard, etc). In these situations I usually stay, but someone else ends up leaving. I've completed plenty of runs like these though; usually the result is that you were just unlucky in the start but move trough the instance fine afterwards.
or D) You have a good old plain noob in your party who doesn't know what to do and is messing everything over. Try and watch him for a bit, then state the errors he's making (in a polite way) and tell him that he'll have to improve if you want to tackle the dungeon. From this point 2 things can happen:
-The noob will improve and you'll have a very succesfull run in which you even learned somebody something.
-The noob will start shouting at you, calling you an *sshole for criticizing the way he plays, etc. Unless the group leader kicks him, this is the point where you can safely say 'au revoir' because you can be 99.99% sure the group as it is is NEVER going to complete the instance. If you leave at this point, nobody should even dare to question your ettiquette since you were plainly right and the noob can be blamed for messing up everything. This is what you should tell people who do attack you on leaving. Ofcourse, you'll have to be 100% sure you ARE right. If you're telling a MM hunter he's being a noob for not using Bestial Wrath you have absolutely no right to speak at all.
To summarize this, it all comes down to the following 3 steps;
1) When you join a group, assure that the gear, specs, levels and group make-up are sufficient enough to do the instance. If you're not sure about the instance, you'll learn this on the go and can comment about it then; just make sure you mention that you don't know the instance.
2) You should at this point be able to complete the instance without much trouble. If you dó end up in a wipefest, observe what's going on. Is your group simply being unlucky, then stick around and try to keep the motivation up.
3) If you've observed the situation and you've noticed somebody is messing up something, politely adress them and try to improve their play. If after trying a bit he (for whatever reason) does not succeed in improving his play, you can either ask the leader for a replacement or safely leave.
At least, that's my ettiquette.
Mozared, as always is completely right on this, lol.
I was going to say something along those lines, but not nearly as detailed :P
I'll just go hide in my own little corner now.
I was going to say something along those lines, but not nearly as detailed :P
I'll just go hide in my own little corner now.
E-peen skill raised to level 316.
Just feel like I ought to thank you for your compliment /bow
Don't hesitate to reply though, the less people agree with me the more I can learn from it, right?
Just feel like I ought to thank you for your compliment /bow
Don't hesitate to reply though, the less people agree with me the more I can learn from it, right?
This is a fun thread, so I think I'll add my 2 copper.
My first thought was, yeah, Krystenn is right on the money.
My second thought was Mozared (ps, cool name) has some really good pts and has it going on.
I personally started as a tank and still love tanking. I was a prot pally back when everyone wanted druids or warriors for tanks till they found out how cool it was to have a prot pally in a 5 man :-) As my priest grew in lvl I learned to love prot pallys in 5 mans and seek one out every time I can. My point? Well, the problem that I met so often was a warrior or druid who couldn't hold agro on multi mob pulls and I would get ganked from healing agro and had to learn early how to deal with a good way to bow out.
First hint, don't put yourself in a group that you think you will have to bow out of! LOL! See step one of Mozared. It's always a good idea to quickly look over people's gear and talents. I do believe above all other classes, Healers not only need to know their toon better than most but, understand the mechanics of other classes as well (second most important being the tank from the healer pov). Going into Slave Pens, if your tank has 6 blues but is spec Ret or Furry you've got problems. If your shammy forgot that he could get mail and is geared in all leather, then you have a problem :-) Not to say that some people don't like a challenge. I took in a group with 2 lvl 62 dps a 60 hunter and a 59 tank into Ramps. But I also knew that I could keep them all alive. Some of this will always depend on your own ability and how well you play your toon. Another way to check out your group is look them up in the Armory if you have the time. Epically if it's taking a while to put your pug together.
Second, I always try to say please and thank you. It's amazing how much of a difference it can make in some groups. ???? Can I have water? vs May I please get some water when you have a chance? Yeah, it's a few more key strokes, but I've been added to so many f-lists now that I can barely log on for 5 min before someone is pst me for heals, or even just a hello... but mostly heals :-)
Third, praise in public... scold in private (damn... did I give away that I'm a Dad?)
Work with your group. As in the noob, well most noobs I've talked to are cool in learning. Pst them though. If they want to learn then they will respond in kind. If not, you'll know and can bow out in any fashion you want. Hell, say your mom says you have to go if you can't think of anything! But if you pst them, then you can save them and yourself face. They look better as they improve because of you and no one is worst off. If they don't want lessons you saved yourself the pain of having to defend yourself in front of others. Also work with your Group Leader (or the one who put the group together as I will create the pug and hand off lead to the tank quite often). Again pst.
Something else to think about, I've made a rep for working with Pally Tanks. I've helped a few get their charger, lvl, and get items (what? 3 dailies later I get the gold back! or it's really just 15 min to do the quest!). My favorite online pally tank was so new to it when I met it (I just know it as a toon) and has now WAY passed me in gear and experience (as far as pally tanks go). But guess who's getting invited to the Heroics to heal? Yeah... so good.
Knowing your limits and recognizing the limits of the group is just the key thing. If you can see that and they can't, really it's not your fault. There will always be those players... and that is that. But I've met 3x as many cool players. Anyway... there's probably like 4 copper but hey!
Gl.
edited for spelling
Edited, Oct 8th 2008 10:07pm by Simskin
My first thought was, yeah, Krystenn is right on the money.
My second thought was Mozared (ps, cool name) has some really good pts and has it going on.
I personally started as a tank and still love tanking. I was a prot pally back when everyone wanted druids or warriors for tanks till they found out how cool it was to have a prot pally in a 5 man :-) As my priest grew in lvl I learned to love prot pallys in 5 mans and seek one out every time I can. My point? Well, the problem that I met so often was a warrior or druid who couldn't hold agro on multi mob pulls and I would get ganked from healing agro and had to learn early how to deal with a good way to bow out.
First hint, don't put yourself in a group that you think you will have to bow out of! LOL! See step one of Mozared. It's always a good idea to quickly look over people's gear and talents. I do believe above all other classes, Healers not only need to know their toon better than most but, understand the mechanics of other classes as well (second most important being the tank from the healer pov). Going into Slave Pens, if your tank has 6 blues but is spec Ret or Furry you've got problems. If your shammy forgot that he could get mail and is geared in all leather, then you have a problem :-) Not to say that some people don't like a challenge. I took in a group with 2 lvl 62 dps a 60 hunter and a 59 tank into Ramps. But I also knew that I could keep them all alive. Some of this will always depend on your own ability and how well you play your toon. Another way to check out your group is look them up in the Armory if you have the time. Epically if it's taking a while to put your pug together.
Second, I always try to say please and thank you. It's amazing how much of a difference it can make in some groups. ???? Can I have water? vs May I please get some water when you have a chance? Yeah, it's a few more key strokes, but I've been added to so many f-lists now that I can barely log on for 5 min before someone is pst me for heals, or even just a hello... but mostly heals :-)
Third, praise in public... scold in private (damn... did I give away that I'm a Dad?)
Work with your group. As in the noob, well most noobs I've talked to are cool in learning. Pst them though. If they want to learn then they will respond in kind. If not, you'll know and can bow out in any fashion you want. Hell, say your mom says you have to go if you can't think of anything! But if you pst them, then you can save them and yourself face. They look better as they improve because of you and no one is worst off. If they don't want lessons you saved yourself the pain of having to defend yourself in front of others. Also work with your Group Leader (or the one who put the group together as I will create the pug and hand off lead to the tank quite often). Again pst.
Something else to think about, I've made a rep for working with Pally Tanks. I've helped a few get their charger, lvl, and get items (what? 3 dailies later I get the gold back! or it's really just 15 min to do the quest!). My favorite online pally tank was so new to it when I met it (I just know it as a toon) and has now WAY passed me in gear and experience (as far as pally tanks go). But guess who's getting invited to the Heroics to heal? Yeah... so good.
Knowing your limits and recognizing the limits of the group is just the key thing. If you can see that and they can't, really it's not your fault. There will always be those players... and that is that. But I've met 3x as many cool players. Anyway... there's probably like 4 copper but hey!
Gl.
edited for spelling
Edited, Oct 8th 2008 10:07pm by Simskin
Quote:
Third, praise in public... scold in private (damn... did I give away that I'm a Dad?)
Work with your group. As in the noob, well most noobs I've talked to are cool in learning. Pst them though. If they want to learn then they will respond in kind. If not, you'll know and can bow out in any fashion you want. Hell, say your mom says you have to go if you can't think of anything! But if you pst them, then you can save them and yourself face. They look better as they improve because of you and no one is worst off. If they don't want lessons you saved yourself the pain of having to defend yourself in front of others. Also work with your Group Leader (or the one who put the group together as I will create the pug and hand off lead to the tank quite often). Again pst.
Work with your group. As in the noob, well most noobs I've talked to are cool in learning. Pst them though. If they want to learn then they will respond in kind. If not, you'll know and can bow out in any fashion you want. Hell, say your mom says you have to go if you can't think of anything! But if you pst them, then you can save them and yourself face. They look better as they improve because of you and no one is worst off. If they don't want lessons you saved yourself the pain of having to defend yourself in front of others. Also work with your Group Leader (or the one who put the group together as I will create the pug and hand off lead to the tank quite often). Again pst.
That
Quote:
Second, I always try to say please and thank you. It's amazing how much of a difference it can make in some groups. ???? Can I have water? vs May I please get some water when you have a chance? Yeah, it's a few more key strokes, but I've been added to so many f-lists now that I can barely log on for 5 min before someone is pst me for heals, or even just a hello... but mostly heals :-)
And that.
Simskin's third point is basically a worked out version of my "politely try to improve the noob" and he's stated exactly what I meant by that. His second point is that even while it might not always appear like that, karma works. A little friendliness does get you a long way. Heck, I notice it on myself. In a BG, I'm a lot less likely to assist/heal/help players who didn't even take the effort to make up at least a SEMI-normal name instead of "dwarvrouge". Say "Table plz" and I'm not even going to bother buffing you the entire game.
Oh and cheers, you must be the first one in years to actually like my nickname *chuckles*.
6 posts
I am a lvl 70 holy priest, in full epics, and I have run across this problem many times. While I agree with Mozared in a good portion of what he listed, I have a few things to add. There are occasions, no matter how well geared your group is, that things just dont work. Heroic Magister's Terrace for instance. The priestess boss fight in that dungeon depends heavily on your group makeup, and the healer's ability to stay alive. If the group makeup isn't correct, the healer will die, and the rest of the group will soon follow, no matter how well you know how to play your charictor. I am not talking about having a healer and all tanks, but having the wrong kind of dps. Sometimes it takes a certian type of dps to do a fight. If you need cc and have none, that would hurt. If you need aoe and have none, that would hurt too. It pays to know the fight when you put your group togeather. I happen to be the stubborn type, where if I have the time, and the rest of the group is willing, I will keep on going no matter how many times i die and repair. I have once spent 3 hours in heroic magister's, only to finally call it quits because it was almost time to run ZA. Most of the time, after a couple of deaths, my groups manage do down her and move on, and the rest of the fights in there are relatively easy. I so far have found no way to bow out without feeling like a heel, so my tactic is to set a time limit.. ie.. i only have an hour and a half, then i have to go. Most groups are understanding of this. I have found being polite a must in this game, not only because people react better to you when you are polite, but because so many dps players tend to think that tanks and healers get away with anything just because they are sought after, and I dont like falling under that catigory. I would not suggest being as stubborn as I am when it comes to finishing a dungeon though, especially if your repair bills get as high as mine. Another tip.. if you are pugging, and someone whispers you, asking for you to come in because thier healer dropped.. think about it, thier healer probably dropped for a reason. And if they send you a blind invite (inviting you without whispering first), they probably arn't the kind of people you will enjoy playing with.
I am facing this from the other direction. I have a 70 mage, 70 Paly Tank, and now a lowbie priest. I think the largest thing that I do prior to starting with a group is talk to them. If I am talking to a class and I ask a class specific question - they better be able to answer it. I'm not talking about demanding that the 30 WAR tank know how to stance dance out of potential fears.... That's extreme. But if I ask if he has a sword/board combo and he says no... I'm out.
I think 1/2 the problems can be avoided if you talk ahead of time. I had a 30+ Lock ask me what "DPS" meant when I was saying it in /LFG channel. Suddenly our /LF2M became a LF3M.
Having said that... We were all new once. I am still new to the priest/healing class. My mage is good, but I've never Raided Illidan... I could learn too... If you get someone who's new - and the group will be capable of absorbing their mistakes - teach them. Tell the mage why he should be far away when casting. Tell the rogue to melee from behind the mob. Explain the boss fight even if the Warlock who's using a fishing pole as a 2H staff tells you he's run this instance a ton of times. Just say - "ok, when the buttons flash, someone needs to push them, you are it..."
And remember - there are noobs galore in Outland. My tank didn't get to really tank until 60. I was geared to tank SM, but someone got a guildie and suddenly we had a P.Run. The first real test of many classes comes in outland.
I think 1/2 the problems can be avoided if you talk ahead of time. I had a 30+ Lock ask me what "DPS" meant when I was saying it in /LFG channel. Suddenly our /LF2M became a LF3M.
Having said that... We were all new once. I am still new to the priest/healing class. My mage is good, but I've never Raided Illidan... I could learn too... If you get someone who's new - and the group will be capable of absorbing their mistakes - teach them. Tell the mage why he should be far away when casting. Tell the rogue to melee from behind the mob. Explain the boss fight even if the Warlock who's using a fishing pole as a 2H staff tells you he's run this instance a ton of times. Just say - "ok, when the buttons flash, someone needs to push them, you are it..."
And remember - there are noobs galore in Outland. My tank didn't get to really tank until 60. I was geared to tank SM, but someone got a guildie and suddenly we had a P.Run. The first real test of many classes comes in outland.
4 posts
I personally am one of those ppl who will stay in a group till all hours of the night regardless of what the repair bill is if the group is sincerely trying. HOWEVER, if the wipes are due to poor gear or because ppl are not paying attention or listening to either raid leader or tank (5-mans) - then I usually will tell the group that I will not stay unless said problem is changed or someone is swapped in. Like someone else said, if someone is just learning an instance - I'll stick it out because we've all been the "noob" at some point in time. But if ppl are arguing in chat or on vent then I bow out because unless something is changed, wipes are gonna continue. Just remember to discuss ahead of time why you're leaving - instead of just going offline or leaving group - that leaves a bad name for yourself.
Edited, Nov 11th 2008 5:01pm by Alesti
Edited, Nov 11th 2008 5:01pm by Alesti
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