Nobody interested in Holy pallies should miss this rather thoughtful discussion.
From Alla's general forum:
http://wow.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=21;mid=1222911599108639607;num=11;page=1
From the WotLK O-boards:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=10532600037&sid=2000&pageNo=1
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Epic O-Board Thread on Holy Paladins in WotLKFollow
I read the OP's whole post. I didn't read the 90 pages of follow up.
I'm a Prot Pally. So I don't know. Is there problems with the healing mechanics?
I understand that we want a HoT and a few other things that other healer classes have, but my understanding (Purely from a PVE standpoint) is that Holy Paly is a good healer. I've been asked to heal a lot of pugs.
What are the thoughts of some of the Palys here? The O-Boards are a bit wild. I think Hoya and Jack seem more reasonable.
I'm a Prot Pally. So I don't know. Is there problems with the healing mechanics?
I understand that we want a HoT and a few other things that other healer classes have, but my understanding (Purely from a PVE standpoint) is that Holy Paly is a good healer. I've been asked to heal a lot of pugs.
What are the thoughts of some of the Palys here? The O-Boards are a bit wild. I think Hoya and Jack seem more reasonable.
The OP on the oboards was correct in every single one of his points. There are some instances I won't go near as a healadin because of the issues mentioned. Sethekk halls for instance as well as Shadow Labs not to mention the Septhera fight in Mech. All because I need to heal on the run and Pallys...well can't.
For a company who is insisting on making it where all specs can be used in all fights, they are making sure that Holy Paladins simply can't compete against other healers in fights that require a great deal of movement.
And with the new Divine Plea I begin wondering if they're even playing the same game we are.
As for Ghostcrawler, she didn't like the points made, and instead owning up that Blizz made some serious errors with the Holy tree, she decided to ignore it because the OP used a frustrated tone.
Over all I'm glad I've switched to Prot and ret full time because I have enough issues healing some fights without Blizz's 'help'.
For a company who is insisting on making it where all specs can be used in all fights, they are making sure that Holy Paladins simply can't compete against other healers in fights that require a great deal of movement.
And with the new Divine Plea I begin wondering if they're even playing the same game we are.
As for Ghostcrawler, she didn't like the points made, and instead owning up that Blizz made some serious errors with the Holy tree, she decided to ignore it because the OP used a frustrated tone.
Over all I'm glad I've switched to Prot and ret full time because I have enough issues healing some fights without Blizz's 'help'.
Therenody wrote:
As for Ghostcrawler, she didn't like the points made, and instead owning up that Blizz made some serious errors with the Holy tree, she decided to ignore it because the OP used a frustrated tone.
You obviously did not read GC's response. Let me quote it for you:
GC wrote:
You had some thoughtful things to say in your post, but your tone and subject are over the top. Try again and maybe you'll get a better response.
She acknowledged the points. She didn't like to tone. She did not ignore the points. She is just not responding to the OP of that post.
Finally, did you all see:
GC wrote:
We are still showing good healing from Holy paladins. However, we are getting feedback that they may be struggling with mana and perhaps even with boredom. To help with both of these potential problems, We are going to change Divine Plea to only reduce your healing by 20% (up from 100%). However, the original nerf to the spell was partially because of it being difficult to stop a paladin in PvP, so we are going to make the effect dispellable.
We're still taking a look at some of Holy's deep talents and I do want to acknowledge that there have been many great suggestions to change some of those.
We understand that some Holy paladins still feel that their movement and group healing mechanics aren't sufficient yet. However, we still like Bacon of Light , Holy Shock and talents like Infusion of Light to help with these problems. We want to get a few of the kinks out and see them in action more before making further changes here.
We also want to reiterate that measuring healing is much tougher than estimating dps or tank mitigation. While healing throughput and efficiency are important, so is knowing who to heal when and with what spell. We're going to keep a close eye on this through the rest of beta, in the Burning Crusade patch and when Lich King goes live.
Thank you, as always, for your feedback.
We're still taking a look at some of Holy's deep talents and I do want to acknowledge that there have been many great suggestions to change some of those.
We understand that some Holy paladins still feel that their movement and group healing mechanics aren't sufficient yet. However, we still like Bacon of Light , Holy Shock and talents like Infusion of Light to help with these problems. We want to get a few of the kinks out and see them in action more before making further changes here.
We also want to reiterate that measuring healing is much tougher than estimating dps or tank mitigation. While healing throughput and efficiency are important, so is knowing who to heal when and with what spell. We're going to keep a close eye on this through the rest of beta, in the Burning Crusade patch and when Lich King goes live.
Thank you, as always, for your feedback.
Yes, they are still working on Paladins.
Although I don't play a pally healer, I think the main thing Blizz is worried about is that healers will lose their speciality in raids.
Let me clarify this, I think Blizz meant to give every healer a place in a raid. They did this by giving every single class an aspect of healing at wich they're good. Think about pallies being great single-target healers, druids having great HoT's etc. That way, in big raids you would want some of every class. However, if they're gonna give every class a HoT, a group heal and single target heals, it won't matter as much wich class your taking to raid, wether they are 7 pallies or 7 druids. Sure, there'll still be classes that'll be better at an aspect, but it won't matter as much as it does now.
I do understand, as I think Blizz does very well too, that this in normal 5 man groups can cause problems like described in the post on the Oboards, but I think Blizz is afraid every class will lose their own special healing capability, like I described above.
Let me clarify this, I think Blizz meant to give every healer a place in a raid. They did this by giving every single class an aspect of healing at wich they're good. Think about pallies being great single-target healers, druids having great HoT's etc. That way, in big raids you would want some of every class. However, if they're gonna give every class a HoT, a group heal and single target heals, it won't matter as much wich class your taking to raid, wether they are 7 pallies or 7 druids. Sure, there'll still be classes that'll be better at an aspect, but it won't matter as much as it does now.
I do understand, as I think Blizz does very well too, that this in normal 5 man groups can cause problems like described in the post on the Oboards, but I think Blizz is afraid every class will lose their own special healing capability, like I described above.
I read her response to the o-boards thread and it reeked of condensation. Every patch until the last DP fix was one nerf after another. Holy Paladins as well as Ret and Prot made polite suggestions and possible fixes, using the best possible tone only to see Holy slammed with more nerfs.
Her post basically said "Say it nicely and we might talk about what you said" They've been saying it nicely and were ignored. Then the pally board got mean, irate, and rebelled.
Then GC brought out the new DP.
It reminds me of how Rome brought out gladiators to keep the people happy even though the Empire was falling apart. It feels like the new DP was brought out to shut up the complaints while the rest of the tree remains broken.
Her post basically said "Say it nicely and we might talk about what you said" They've been saying it nicely and were ignored. Then the pally board got mean, irate, and rebelled.
Then GC brought out the new DP.
It reminds me of how Rome brought out gladiators to keep the people happy even though the Empire was falling apart. It feels like the new DP was brought out to shut up the complaints while the rest of the tree remains broken.
Quote:
Her post basically said "Say it nicely and we might talk about what you said" They've been saying it nicely and were ignored.
This is where our interpretation differs. I saw it as "Say it nicer, and I'll respond. Be a dink, and I won't. Either way, we already know all the points you made, and are working on it. Oh look, we changed Divine Plea. Yes, it is improved. Also, the so-called "nerf" was just a test we did to get a better feel for the talent. If you've ever done real testing, you know that you test beyond the limits, then then scale back. That is what happened with that particular ability."
Maybe I read a bit too much into things tho :)
GC wrote:
However, we still like Bacon of Light...
Sweet, I love bacon. Pallies will rule the World of....Breakfast!
On a more serious note...
I just don't think the sky is falling. Personally, I prefer to keep classes with separate capabilities...with strengths and weaknesses. I'm not really in favor of giving every class the same abilities as every other class. But, Blizz seems to be headed more toward homogenization. I suspect Holy Pallies will get in on more of the action, too.
bah. that O-board post was a huge rant with lots of one-sided arguments.
the OP took months of issues, topics, and post and turned it into a super-vent. i dont blame GC for not responding. its like being in a relationship where the other person is keeping a tally of all your mistakes and unloading 5-yrs worth in one argument. leaves you saying "wtf?".
if you are gonna rant you need to offer some sort of proposal. the OP just pointed out what he was unhappy with, not the actual data. AND he was inconsistant about it:
killed every boss? sounds like a success to me. whats the problem?
2v2 is NOT the pally's playground. 5v5? gratz, thats more like it.
then the OP goes on about all the joys that the other classes share. he conveniently leaves out:
-plate armor
-no spell pushback heals(ever try to Kick a hasted FoL?)
-limited immunity
-buffs-on-demand
-raw healing power
the OP also contradicts himself by wanting more priest/shammy/druid-like abilities, YET wants pallies to be more distictive and "wanted".
I SAY: pallies serve(d) their role. they have their strengths, they have their weaknesses, and they have their place just as everyone does(except Ret :P). i find the OP's rant to be unwarranted. too many buffs in one area will lead to nerfs in another. let the master plan play out and see where Blizz goes before calling for a "redo". Blizzard is not "The Man", they do not profit from the misery of any class.
the OP took months of issues, topics, and post and turned it into a super-vent. i dont blame GC for not responding. its like being in a relationship where the other person is keeping a tally of all your mistakes and unloading 5-yrs worth in one argument. leaves you saying "wtf?".
if you are gonna rant you need to offer some sort of proposal. the OP just pointed out what he was unhappy with, not the actual data. AND he was inconsistant about it:
Quote:
First, I would like to provide a background to my own knowledge of the class. I have played a holy Paladin since January of 2005. I have leveled up as holy, even back when there was the bugged Seal of the Crusader. I remember the promises of Paladin fixes in 1.9, only to be disappointed (the first of many times) with more lasting nerfs than buffs to the class (hello to you Forbearance). I have been lucky enough over the years to be in quality raiding guilds, and have killed every raid boss in the game, from Lucifron to Kil’Jaeden and everything in between. I am also a Scarab Lord, showing that yes I can get a good amount of guildies to farm Hive Regal for carapaces with me. I am also a Gladiator, getting a mount in 2v2 and 5v5 in season 2 (though for 2v2 I had to have a druid take my spot from 2100 to our gladiator ranking, but we will get into that later). I will now break down holy concerns for both PvE and PvP going into Wrath with the state of holy Paladins as they currently are.
killed every boss? sounds like a success to me. whats the problem?
2v2 is NOT the pally's playground. 5v5? gratz, thats more like it.
then the OP goes on about all the joys that the other classes share. he conveniently leaves out:
-plate armor
-no spell pushback heals(ever try to Kick a hasted FoL?)
-limited immunity
-buffs-on-demand
-raw healing power
the OP also contradicts himself by wanting more priest/shammy/druid-like abilities, YET wants pallies to be more distictive and "wanted".
I SAY: pallies serve(d) their role. they have their strengths, they have their weaknesses, and they have their place just as everyone does(except Ret :P). i find the OP's rant to be unwarranted. too many buffs in one area will lead to nerfs in another. let the master plan play out and see where Blizz goes before calling for a "redo". Blizzard is not "The Man", they do not profit from the misery of any class.
one more thing. wtf is this?
normalized for popularity? F that. even "normalized" the data is whack. pallies are 3 specs, only 1 of which is truly arena-ready. normalize that! pallies are also 2nd most popular in 5v5, where druids become 3rd lowest. normalize that! mages and hunters look relatively unrepresented...which is a lie.
then if you do the research on arena teams, you will see many successful teams with NO HEALER! in arena, most pallies are healers! normalize that!
this snapshot is about as skewed as my screenie of 2500 dps as Ret. i'd show it to you but then someone will call nerf Ret!
Quote:
So being that this was done to level off the “grossly over-represented†Paladins in arena, Kalgan’s arena numbers a few months later should show that Paladins were around where they should be since they needed this much weakening. (Numbers as of March 2008)
"One of the things we look at is class representation in arenas (although normalized for class popularity). In this particular chart, a value of 100% means the class is represented as we'd expect, a value over 100% means the class is represented that much more often than we'd expect, a value below 100% means they're represented less than we'd want (obviously this chart doesn't include a spec breakdown in any way)."
2v2 3v3 5v5
Druid 276.0% 184.0% 80.5%
Hunter 43.0% 50.2% 43.0%
Mage 8.7% 96.0% 96.0%
Paladin 19.7% 29.5% 147.4%
Priest 113.3% 164.8% 185.4%
Shaman 37.8% 50.4% 138.6%
Rogue 144.2% 175.1% 61.8%
Warlock 149.2% 93.2% 111.9%
Warrior 130.4% 90.7% 79.3%
"One of the things we look at is class representation in arenas (although normalized for class popularity). In this particular chart, a value of 100% means the class is represented as we'd expect, a value over 100% means the class is represented that much more often than we'd expect, a value below 100% means they're represented less than we'd want (obviously this chart doesn't include a spec breakdown in any way)."
2v2 3v3 5v5
Druid 276.0% 184.0% 80.5%
Hunter 43.0% 50.2% 43.0%
Mage 8.7% 96.0% 96.0%
Paladin 19.7% 29.5% 147.4%
Priest 113.3% 164.8% 185.4%
Shaman 37.8% 50.4% 138.6%
Rogue 144.2% 175.1% 61.8%
Warlock 149.2% 93.2% 111.9%
Warrior 130.4% 90.7% 79.3%
normalized for popularity? F that. even "normalized" the data is whack. pallies are 3 specs, only 1 of which is truly arena-ready. normalize that! pallies are also 2nd most popular in 5v5, where druids become 3rd lowest. normalize that! mages and hunters look relatively unrepresented...which is a lie.
then if you do the research on arena teams, you will see many successful teams with NO HEALER! in arena, most pallies are healers! normalize that!
this snapshot is about as skewed as my screenie of 2500 dps as Ret. i'd show it to you but then someone will call nerf Ret!
tommyguns wrote:
one more thing. wtf is this?
normalized for popularity? F that. even "normalized" the data is whack.
normalized for popularity? F that. even "normalized" the data is whack.
If I'm not mistaken this is actually taken verbatim from a blue post made by Kalgan last Spring explaining how they look at arena population numbers. Normalized means simply that Blizzard takes the proportion of players of a specific class in the three arena brackets and compares it to the general population in the game. When you have the same proportion of eg pallies in an arena bracket as you have pallies playing the game vs other classes, you get 100% representation.
EDIT: ah, here it is: http://blue.cardplace.com/newcache/us/5103773379.htm
Edited, Oct 3rd 2008 11:18am by Alastaironsiren
You know, ive played a holy pally from 1-70. From heroics to Felmyst. And i dont really see where pallies get off crying. Last time i checked, you can see what spells a class can use before leveling. If you want to run around throwing hots, and group heals there are better classes.
Honestly if blizz ended up changing the class the way all these pallies want, i would prolly quit and go back to my rogue. The best thing about being a pally is sitting back and tossing out flash heals for 20 mins! I really dont see a problem with us, maybe im just too in love with the class.../shrug.
Also, i have never had a problem with any fight, heroic or non, except that one guy in auch that has the aura that increases cast time, thats not cool.
Honestly if blizz ended up changing the class the way all these pallies want, i would prolly quit and go back to my rogue. The best thing about being a pally is sitting back and tossing out flash heals for 20 mins! I really dont see a problem with us, maybe im just too in love with the class.../shrug.
Also, i have never had a problem with any fight, heroic or non, except that one guy in auch that has the aura that increases cast time, thats not cool.
crazeecracker wrote:
You know, ive played a holy pally from 1-70. From heroics to Felmyst. And i dont really see where pallies get off crying. Last time i checked, you can see what spells a class can use before leveling. If you want to run around throwing hots, and group heals there are better classes.
Honestly if blizz ended up changing the class the way all these pallies want, i would prolly quit and go back to my rogue. The best thing about being a pally is sitting back and tossing out flash heals for 20 mins! I really dont see a problem with us, maybe im just too in love with the class.../shrug.
Also, i have never had a problem with any fight, heroic or non, except that one guy in auch that has the aura that increases cast time, thats not cool.
Honestly if blizz ended up changing the class the way all these pallies want, i would prolly quit and go back to my rogue. The best thing about being a pally is sitting back and tossing out flash heals for 20 mins! I really dont see a problem with us, maybe im just too in love with the class.../shrug.
Also, i have never had a problem with any fight, heroic or non, except that one guy in auch that has the aura that increases cast time, thats not cool.
honestly, i respect your opinion on holy. i really do. however, 2 things you say i don't agree with 100%.
first, we shouldn't complain because we knew what we were getting into when we made our pally. not always true. i played risk, warhammer 40,000 (the tabletop version before the first computer version), warcraft 2, starcraft, warcraft 3, space empires, masters of orion and some other games of those types. i had never played an MMO or RPG game before. read the class descriptions on the character creation screen... it didn't say you're going to be spamming one spell for hours on end for the next 4 years. i was lvl 15 before i knew i had talent points. i was in my 30's i think before i realize i had options other than holy, but didn't want to pay to respec at the time. did i know what i was getting into? i read character descriptions and they all souned fun, but the paladin sounded like it fit me. spamming FoL isn't what i was looking for.
secondly TBC healing. are pallies worse healers because of spamming one ability? not in anappropriate team. as main tank healer in raids, holy pallies rock at keeping tanks up. does silence bother me? a little, but i survive and ovecome silences usually despite not having HoTs. can another healer do what i do? yep. can i do what they do? no. i'm not the group healer. can i heal 5 mans, sure. most of them. MgT? not even on regular without an off-healer. but then i never claimed to be the best anyway. honestly, i'd been bored with holy long before MgT. thats why my ret pally was 70 by the time it came out. several failed attempts in MgT convinced me to put my healadin aside except for raiding and only if he was really needed.
i won't say holy is bad. its not weak. its actually very strong in its 1 stong suit - single target endurance. this is true even after the illumination nerf.
my complaint really has never been the BC state of Pallies. it bored me, but i love having one around when i'm needing to tank. my complaint, which may be different than the o-board poster is that wotlk has made all tanks able to do everything, all dps specs similar dps levels and utility, all 3 real healing specs able to heal any situation equally, but holy pallies aparently aren't a real healing spec. holy pallies seem to be the only class intentionally limited to one job and its a job the 3 real healers can do just as well.
and last thing, to tommyguns. you know i'm sure i respect you a lot. i was encouraged in playing my ret pally mostly because of you here in the forums. we seem to have different areas of preference. your points were valid though and since i don't pvp much at all (and even when i do its very reluctantly) i hadn't really thought too much about how holy was doing in pvp. i think the trick for blizz will probably be to make holy fun in PVE without being OP in pvp. this is probably easier said than done and while i can recognize the PvE limitations of holy, i don't have the pvp experience to make suggestions that would be balanced in both pve and pvp. i'm not sure if you have healed at all in pve (all i remember is you going ret and prot) but if you have you might be a good one to help with some suggestions for making holy fun w/o being OP in pvp. my thought (as much as i'd hate it as ret) would be to move the HoT and instant FoL parts of the ret talents either in the first few tiers of ret or maybe fully in the holy tree while leaving the AP -> SP conversion in deep ret. would a hot and occassional instant FoL be OP in pvp do you think?
Quote:
When you have the same proportion of eg pallies in an arena bracket as you have pallies playing the game vs other classes, you get 100% representation.
only problem with this method is the last lil bit:
Quote:
Edit: one other detail regarding the chart, this one is set at 2200+ rating.
hunters are indeed the most popular class in the game, perhaps the most played lvl 70. but they are not always rolled for pvp purposes. i would argue that the majority play em pve. this chart would suggest that there are very few hunters in arena, which we all know is not true.
Quote:
holy pallies seem to be the only class intentionally limited to one job and its a job the 3 real healers can do just as well.
This is the key complaint from a majority of the Healadins complaining. Every other healer can do a Paladin's job, but a Paladin can not do any other healer's job.
Paladins may be the best MT healer (imho), but priests, druids, and shammys are VERY close behind. When it comes to AoE healing, we are VERY far behind all other classes. This is where class "balance" is broken. Paladin's don't need to be awesome AoE healers, but some kind of capability would be nice to make up for that shortcoming.
I think there is some real potential with Bacon, but it needs to be refined. Hopefully Blizz will do so. Combining this with a modified version of Hand of Sacrifice could be PHENOMENAL!! For example:
Healer is Bacon.
Healer casts Hand of Sacrifice on tank, reducing tank damage by 30% (which is transfered to healer)
Healer heals tank, and heals himself too (through Bacon).
Unfortunately, with the 2 min CD on Hand of Sacrifice, this is currently of rare situational use. If that CD issue got removed - this could be phenomenal for MT healing. So a Holy Talent that made Hand of Sacrifice last 2 mins would be AWESOME! I would even say that this would move us so far ahead in MT healing that I would be just fine without any AoE healing. Yes, this would create class balance. If Paladins are so far behind in AoE healing, then we should be equally ahead at MT healing.
Edited, Oct 3rd 2008 9:38am by YJMark
YJMark wrote:
Quote:
holy pallies seem to be the only class intentionally limited to one job and its a job the 3 real healers can do just as well.
This is the key complaint from a majority of the Healadins complaining. Every other healer can do a Paladin's job, but a Paladin can not do any other healer's job.
Paladins may be the best MT healer (imho), but priests, druids, and shammys are VERY close behind. When it comes to AoE healing, we are VERY far behind all other classes. This is where class "balance" is broken. Paladin's don't need to be awesome AoE healers, but some kind of capability would be nice to make up for that shortcoming.
I think there is some real potential with Bacon, but it needs to be refined. Hopefully Blizz will do so. Combining this with a modified version of Hand of Sacrifice could be PHENOMENAL!! For example:
Healer is Bacon.
Healer casts Hand of Sacrifice on tank, reducing tank damage by 30% (which is transfered to healer)
Healer heals tank, and heals himself too (through Bacon).
Unfortunately, with the 2 min CD on Hand of Sacrifice, this is currently of rare situational use. If that CD issue got removed - this could be phenomenal for MT healing. So a Holy Talent that made Hand of Sacrifice last 2 mins would be AWESOME! I would even say that this would move us so far ahead in MT healing that I would be just fine without any AoE healing. Yes, this would create class balance. If Paladins are so far behind in AoE healing, then we should be equally ahead at MT healing.
Edited, Oct 3rd 2008 9:38am by YJMark
hmm, that has some potential :) essentially improving your healing by majorly improving tank mitigation. its different. it's powerful. its much better than just trying to play catch up. i think i like it :)
tommyguns wrote:
Quote:
When you have the same proportion of eg pallies in an arena bracket as you have pallies playing the game vs other classes, you get 100% representation.
only problem with this method is the last lil bit:
Quote:
Edit: one other detail regarding the chart, this one is set at 2200+ rating.
Shrug. Take it up with the o-boards OP. I'm not taking any stance on the merits, just clarifying where the guy got his numbers from, since they appeared to raise some skepticism. That being said, on the same thread you also get the 1850 rating chart, which the OP didn't quote.
I don't have a horse in this controversy so far. In its current state, Ret appears to combine sweet melee-range action with a solid potential for off-healing. It's really close to the archetype ideal vision of the holy warrior smiting enemies and keeping allies alive at the same type. I'll play that build over static FoL spamming until they nerf it myself, or until I get bored of it.
It's not as if I'd see anything more than 2-3 bosses of Naxx10 before the following expansion anyway, so the new Retadin is quite attractive to casual dirt like me.
how about a holy ability deep in the holy tree like the mages flamestrike, make it a holy strike that heals all within that area, but obviously a 1 min CD or something and a say a 1.5 or 2 sec cast time. I`m not to sure what size of space that should cover, but something like our consecration would be cool. It would help with pallie AoE healing. But I don`t for see bliz changing much at this point, Im hopeful, but its not likely till the x-pac goes live.
tommyguns wrote:
hunters are indeed the most popular class in the game, perhaps the most played lvl 70. but they are not always rolled for pvp purposes. i would argue that the majority play em pve. this chart would suggest that there are very few hunters in arena, which we all know is not true.
What that table indicates is that very few GOOD arena teams have a hunter or paladin. What would be the point of looking at overall Arena participation rates if a class is virtually locked out of competitive Arena participation?
The O-board rant was focused pretty clearly on high-end players, both PVE and PVP. If his concern in PVE is SWP and WotLK raiding, it only makes sense to examine PVP problems from the high end of the rating spectrum as well.
But there is one question that no one's asking Blizzard. There's a huge purple elephant playing piano in a room and neither Blizz or the players are going wtf?
Well I'm going to ask the question.
Why is Blizzard trying to balance the classes around such a tiny part of the game?
Classes are being randomly nerfed and buffed based on Arena even though most of a player's time is spent in the real WoW, if they even bother to do Arena. Arena will NEVER be balanced no matter what they do. Classes with stealth and races with the ability to break cc will ALWAYS have an advantage. And many people go into Arena wanting every advantage possible. Changing abilities to try to balance something that will never be balanced will only frustrate and anger the players who don't want to do arena, who don't like arena, and who wishes Arena was never added.
WoW's balance has always been based on WORLD pvp, one raid group facing off with another with the random npc getting involved. By taking it down to smaller groups it changes the balance. Blizz needs to forget about equal class representation in Arena and get back to what they do best, World PVP/PvE. And, yes, I consider the BGs part of it even though they're instanced.
Well I'm going to ask the question.
Why is Blizzard trying to balance the classes around such a tiny part of the game?
Classes are being randomly nerfed and buffed based on Arena even though most of a player's time is spent in the real WoW, if they even bother to do Arena. Arena will NEVER be balanced no matter what they do. Classes with stealth and races with the ability to break cc will ALWAYS have an advantage. And many people go into Arena wanting every advantage possible. Changing abilities to try to balance something that will never be balanced will only frustrate and anger the players who don't want to do arena, who don't like arena, and who wishes Arena was never added.
WoW's balance has always been based on WORLD pvp, one raid group facing off with another with the random npc getting involved. By taking it down to smaller groups it changes the balance. Blizz needs to forget about equal class representation in Arena and get back to what they do best, World PVP/PvE. And, yes, I consider the BGs part of it even though they're instanced.
Therenody wrote:
Why is Blizzard trying to balance the classes around such a tiny part of the game?
So basically what you're saying is: Balance all classes with World PvP in mind, and forget about Arena. If Blizzard does this then surely some classes will (almost) completely dissapear from Arena's.
In my opinion balancing based on Arena is one of the best methods. As PvP/Arena will always be the part of the game where you will feel your strenghts and weaknesses the most.
I think PvE isn't that touchy when it comes to nerfs or buffs, I mean has there ever been a class that couldn't compete in PvE because of a nerf?.
Quote:
Why is Blizzard trying to balance the classes around such a tiny part of the game?
I actually agree with this a lot. It's called World of Warcraft. Not Arena. Not Street Fighter 26 (Capcom vs WoW). Not Mortal Warcraft.
I play on a PVP server because of the feel... I'm not a huge PVP guy. I'll jump in a BG from time to time. I gank and get ganked. I never do arena, but the specs on my mage, the abilities of my paly, etc are all determined by what other people do in a part of the game that is, at best, a tangent.
Resiliance is only sought after by PVP players. Major changes to the game have been made due to PVP. Note - Everyone say it the way my last sentence was structured:
Changes occured to the game
Due to PVP balancing.
No one says:
Major changes occured to PVP
Because of balancing the game.
It's somewhat annoying that this one small section of the entire WoW universe is the metric that was chosen to measure inter-class balance...
Zignaestos wrote:
Therenody wrote:
Why is Blizzard trying to balance the classes around such a tiny part of the game?
So basically what you're saying is: Balance all classes with World PvP in mind, and forget about Arena. If Blizzard does this then surely some classes will (almost) completely dissapear from Arena's.
In my opinion balancing based on Arena is one of the best methods. As PvP/Arena will always be the part of the game where you will feel your strenghts and weaknesses the most.
I think PvE isn't that touchy when it comes to nerfs or buffs, I mean has there ever been a class that couldn't compete in PvE because of a nerf?.
Um, no offense but have you been keeping up with what is going on with Holy Paladins? They have been nerfed to the point of being a liability in raids because they are over represented in 5vs5 arena.
Quote:
Why is Blizzard trying to balance the classes around such a tiny part of the game?
As someone else mentioned, Arena and end game Raids are where each class tries to squeeze out every last piece of perfection. This is where differences in balance are noticed the most, and why they are focusing on it. The differences (or "imbalances") are felt the most at those levels.
Plus, it is more isolated and controlled, which makes it easier to compare issues. There are way too many variables to consider World PvP-wise.
First I read Ghostcrawler's post and thought it was rather snippy and rude. Then, reading that o-board post, I realized that was an amazingly civil response for the post. While yes the original poster might bring up a lot of good points, he also seems to personally attack GC several times, in one instance just for a seemingly friendly ressaurance to another board. That seems really out of hand to me.
Also, I guess I should say something about arena buffs/nerfs since that seems to be the topic, but really at this point buffing/nerfing classes with things that drastically impact raid performance because of a side event that is fairly recent (just comparing how long world pvp, raiding, etc have been a major focus in WoW vs arena play) does actually often worry me, especially considering <5% of the players I know particpate in arena seriously.
(By seriously I mean "Attempt to get a decent rating" vs "Let's throw ourselves into the enemy until we get arena points, kk?")
Also, I guess I should say something about arena buffs/nerfs since that seems to be the topic, but really at this point buffing/nerfing classes with things that drastically impact raid performance because of a side event that is fairly recent (just comparing how long world pvp, raiding, etc have been a major focus in WoW vs arena play) does actually often worry me, especially considering <5% of the players I know particpate in arena seriously.
(By seriously I mean "Attempt to get a decent rating" vs "Let's throw ourselves into the enemy until we get arena points, kk?")
Illumination changes didn't hurt us as bad as he said. If you stack a bunch of haste its going to bite you in the *** for mana, that's true if you are a Druid, Shaman or even a mage. The key is to find balance. Changes to downranking will probably be a kick to the nuts on fights like Brutallus but honestly I've played around with some wonky healer set ups on that fight when people didnt show and we did the entire fight with 3 Holy Paladins just timing FoL so they were always stacked 0.5 seconds apart and we downed Brut without using a mana pot. I am sure we will survive.
As for one button healers, if you are only using one button, if you arent using multiple ranks etc of spells if you dont have BoP,BoF, Cleanse keybound and ready to use on Grid then you are an awful paladin who is only getting half of what is possible out of your character. It is like any class when you break it down in PvE the basic mechanics of it are simple but its the nuance that separates those in SWP and those stuck on Bloodboil.
As for one button healers, if you are only using one button, if you arent using multiple ranks etc of spells if you dont have BoP,BoF, Cleanse keybound and ready to use on Grid then you are an awful paladin who is only getting half of what is possible out of your character. It is like any class when you break it down in PvE the basic mechanics of it are simple but its the nuance that separates those in SWP and those stuck on Bloodboil.
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