What is wrong with taking Demonic Tactics?Follow

free trial explained it perfectly there. and your comment about 'min/maxing' doesn't apply here as all that applies is a shorter gcd/cast-time

you may not be waiting, but you are still wasting more time. and as I've explained plenty of times before about destructive reach, due to a lower solo dps (tps) you'll never pull hate before a dest lock anyways. and of course they'll exist, probably 90% of everyone has talented wrong, even if it's just a slight difference (for example... kbd's build which includes 1/5 imp.imm instead of 1/5 emberstorm... it may be a filler talent and still for a spell he'll rarely use.. but the end result is that it's not the optimum dps choice)

in terms of next patch. yeah, doesn't really matter. though there will be plenty of arguements over what spec is the best come next patch, so you'll probably see alot more threads by me or any of my aliases on the other theorycrafting sites.

they spec for threat reduction to increase the possible damage they can do IF their tank sucks. but presuming the tank knows what they're doing, then they don't need it. personally I have destructive reach for the range not for the threat reduction as our main tanks all push out 1400-1800tps. the notion that demo locks need it more than afliction is also wrong. the ratio of afliction(+pet damage) to destruction damage is pretty much identical for both specs (up to 60-70% being from destruction spells, depending on curse choice).
also whether or not there is a destruction lock makes no difference, I was simply using it for comparison. a demo lock, pretty much regardless, is one of the least likely specs to pull hate across the whole range of dps classes because so much of their damage (threat) is generated by the pet.


wings... about the 'waiting' time.

what takes longer:

1.6 sec corruption = 1.6 seconds of time spent casting a spell

1.2 sec corruption + 0.3 seconds wasted due to remainder of GCD = 1.5 seconds of time spent casting a spell


the maths is VERY SIMPLE. I'd expect a retarded primary school kid to be able to understand this. granted our previous discussions have shown that your maths aren't very strong anyways.


oh, another way to look at it:

you need to move to avoid boss abilities or to click something etc... but your dot is about to wear off and you're trying to decide "do i recast dot and maybe die from aoe/wipe raid due to not clicking something etc... or do I not and decrease my damage (raid damage)". well in this situation having the shorter cast time leaves you at an advantage, as the wasted 0.3 seconds can be spent moving instead... oh and this'll occur alot, gruul, mag, prince, aran are all examples, and they're all easy as hell compared to the later and alot tougher examples where maximising damage AND still making sure you complete your other tasks are both as important as each other.

now yes, IF you have a sh*t tank and for some rediculous reason nobody in the guild either 1. teachings them how to play or 2. suggests to replace them with a better tank then sure, the decreased threat would be worthwhile. but as I've said before... this spec is a T5 2set bonus or above point. which means your guild (and so tanks) need to be good enough to cope with T5 content, which is (was... everything's been nerfed alot) tough. so the idea that you have a tank who can't break 1000 tps is pretty far fetched.

POST EDIT

you're arguing for the sake of arguing, you're hopping from one idea to the next hoping to find something that sticks and can actually be a relevant come back to my opinion... but you're not thinking anything through, not researching it and not paying attention to what I say. just give up.

Edited, Oct 6th 2008 6:25pm by Jenovaomega

Here's one thing you both keep forgetting: Waiting = DPS loss. I see that neither of you has even looked at that. This is why we try to Life Tap/Dark Pact as little as possible or while moving away from the fire, as it were. Yes, the wait time is pretty small over even a 15-minute fight, but the fact of the matter is, it's still a DPS loss. That, and .4s isn't going to mean diddly if you're getting hit with Doomfire or something similar (latency be damned).

People don't spec 2/2 Destr. Reach because their tanks suck. People spec 2/2 Destr. Reach because they're using Immolate and Shadow Bolt. Can you get 2/2 Destr. Reach in a 2/41/18 build? Yes, by sacrificing a point in Intensity, which also happens to be a DPS loss by sacrificing that point.

Also, assuming you have a paladin 100% of the time is also retarded; you can't assume every raid ever is going to have the luxury of a paladin. Case in point, 10-man raids. Does Destructive Reach suddenly become far more appealing? Yes, I'm pretty sure it does.

Now also, if you're talking 2pc T5, that's even more reason to take 2/2 Destr. Reach, because the healing caused to your pet (if I remember correctly) causes threat. (Who's the one going from topic to topic now, eh? All I've said was 2/2 Dest. Reach > 2/5 Imp. Corr.)

By the way, don't talk down to me like I don't know how to play my class; I've done enough fights where it's "stick and move," as my raid leader likes to put it, as affliction, where it's even harder than Demo with 1-2 points in Corruption. I am well aware of the mechanics of most T5 stuff, and I watch enough videos to get the idea of how T6+ content works as well. But, I will say this: Because of latency (and possibly framerate), a 1.6s Corruption with 2/2 Dest. Reach and 2/2 Intensity is better than a 1.2s Corruption with 2/2 and 1/2 Destr. Reach/Intensity (however you choose).

Oh, and one final note - Opinion != fact. So, until you come up with some facts, your argument is worthless.

waiting does equal a dps loss... but only if that time could of been spent doing somethihg else / increasing the overall rate at which you get spells off. the concept that me and freetrial are saying is that having 2/5 rather than 1/5 isn't a waste of time because overall, in terms of when you can cast the next spell, 2/5 provides greater utility than 1/5 due to this, and to explain:

in terms of latency...

a 1/5 sec corruption will provide LESS utility. including latency (say 100 ms which is probably less than the average player after you take into account reaction times, so we're being nice here.) that 1.6(1.5+100ms latency) sec cast becomes a 1.7 sec cast, so 0.2 sec wasted. the 1.2 sec (2/5 corruption) becomes a 1.3 sec(1.2+100ms latency), so currently no time being wasted in comparison as you would of had to wait that 1.5 seconds regardless after having casted the spel, be it 0/5 or 5/5.

there is NO reason at all to argue that 1/5 imp.cor is better than 2/5 and almost no reason to argue for destructive reach (other than a crappy tank as I've explained before). the only reason people don't go for 3/5 or 4/5 imp.cor is because those additional talent points can be spent else where to increase dps done.

if you're not riding the tanks threat anyways then either you're doing it wrong OR the tank is doing it right. I can push out 2.5k dps on brutalus and even then I never need to shatter throughout the encounter.. and this is as a dest build. if I was demo then my threat would be even lower. as I've said plenty of times. IF your tank sucks at tps, then yes it's a dps increase. but the presumption is that the tank is good at tpsing, in which case the talents can be spent on actual phsyical dps increases rather than tps decreases to allow for you to dps to your fullest.

and yeah, patch next week. fun :D for me a destro spec that requires more than 1 button :D can't wait ^^

and it's an instant 25% dpsc dps increase which means we're almost more likely to want to cast the spell :)

Edited, Oct 10th 2008 3:44am by Jenovaomega

This.