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What is wrong with taking Demonic Tactics?Follow
This may seem like a stupid quetion to some, but I have been flipping between Affliction and demonolgy a lot lately, and most of the talent guides I see for demo spec advise against taking Demonic Tactics. I want to know why. 5% extra crit and spell crit seems like a good deal. I can see some people skipping it at end game as it allows you 5 points to put in skills that might help you more in raids or maybe PvP, but from the point of someone who is still leveling up it seems like a good skill. Am I missing something here? Please enlighten me.
Scholar
27 posts
If you play like me, a hefty chunk of your damage is based on dots and drains. Those don't benefit from crit rating.
I personally took the 5 points mainly for the satisfaction of seeing my felguard pop off an extra crit now and then.
I personally took the 5 points mainly for the satisfaction of seeing my felguard pop off an extra crit now and then.
Well, that is what I mean. I know the spell crit is not too useful unless you SB spam, but 5%crit on a felguard seems like it could equate to a lot more damage, which would help to hold more agro as well solo'ing. I don't know, I always thought it was a pretty good talent to take while leveling.
It should be taken in a raid build. I'll elaborate later.
Edit:
Felguard build
Succubus build
Demonic Tactics improves not only your pet's crit chance, but also yours. With the high emphasis on spell crit about midway through T5 content and further, Demonic Tactics is actually a really good talent for raiding. And also, because pets don't scale with hit, pets' crit also tries to make up for that.
Some might argue in favor of Demonic Resilience, but the fact of the matter is, Demo raiding isn't really viable except on farm content beyond early T6, and generally not without 2pc T5 and a Void Star Talisman.
Come Wrath, Demo is becoming a lot like a BM hunter's tree, and synergy is based on your and your pet's crit. Luckily, pets will scale with +hit, so the more crit your pets have, the more Demonic Pact procs.
Edited, Sep 30th 2008 10:32am by wingsofscion
Edit:
Felguard build
Succubus build
Demonic Tactics improves not only your pet's crit chance, but also yours. With the high emphasis on spell crit about midway through T5 content and further, Demonic Tactics is actually a really good talent for raiding. And also, because pets don't scale with hit, pets' crit also tries to make up for that.
Some might argue in favor of Demonic Resilience, but the fact of the matter is, Demo raiding isn't really viable except on farm content beyond early T6, and generally not without 2pc T5 and a Void Star Talisman.
Come Wrath, Demo is becoming a lot like a BM hunter's tree, and synergy is based on your and your pet's crit. Luckily, pets will scale with +hit, so the more crit your pets have, the more Demonic Pact procs.
Edited, Sep 30th 2008 10:32am by wingsofscion
Scholar
27 posts
Quote:
I know the spell crit is not too useful unless you SB spam, but 5%crit on a felguard seems like it could equate to a lot more damage..
For starters, your Felguard does less than half your damage even if you spec the 5% crit bonus. This is readily apparent by simply turning off his taunt and observing that in most fights the mobs eventually ignore your felguard and chase you. To thusly rip aggro off your felguard, you must significantly exceed his dps, since your own dps generates reduced threat presuming you stand beyond melee range.
So yes, no matter how brutal he looks your felguard doesn't contribute even half the dps. Even if you are an orc with the passive pet damage bonus.
Since, in solo grinding, the +crit applies mainly to your pet, what would be a rough 1% dps bonus per talent point is cut at least in half. Meaning you and your pet are collectively getting <0.5% dps per point. The standard for dps talent points is roughly 1% dps bonus per point. So we solo grinders get half value, though as you pointed out it can help the felguard hold aggro.
Quote:
no matter how brutal he looks your felguard doesn't contribute even half the dps.
He's not supposed to, either. Pets are actually supposed to contribute about 30% of the master's DPS. Currently, hunters achieve that, but warlocks are lacking (I believe I read numbers somewhere in the ballpark of the Felguard topping 15% of the warlock's DPS, and the Imp in a Destro build only hitting 10% - I haven't seen anything on the Felhunter).
something along the lines of 2/41/18 is the optimum pve demo spec... god knows why anyone would suggest to not take demonic tactics as up to 60% of your damage (presuming you use both corruption and CoA) will be shadowbolt+immolate, up to 15% will be your pet and the remainder is your afliction dots. (if you only use Corruption due to being on CoE/CoRec duty then even more damage is affected by that increased crit. simply put it's definately worthwhile taking the talent and you should be looking at something very similar to spec I linked.
for someone still leveling, no it is not good. For instances/raiding, yes it is excellent. While leveling though, how often do you actually use SB?
honestly I didn't read beyond "i've read demonic tactics isn't good". lol, yeah I agree for leveling it's pretty much useless, but then if you're leveling the quickest spec is an afliction/demo hybrid with the emphasis on drain tanking multiple mobs and having voidy there to simply take initial threat.
Quote:
something along the lines of 2/41/18 is the optimum pve demo spec...
I think it's 1/41/19, but I believe from what I've read that it's better to go 0/41/20 or 0/40/21+succubus for a demo build. The 1/41/19 is easy enough by dropping shadowburn, but meh, I'm too much into that spell to drop it anytime soon.
As for leveling, it definitely isn't necessary, because you're essentially using your Felguard as a tank and using drains and health funnel more than shadow bolt/incinerate (and that is totally a preference choice there for solo - should always be sbolt in raids). It is nice if you're in groups a lot, though.
wingsofscion the Sly wrote:
Quote:
something along the lines of 2/41/18 is the optimum pve demo spec...
I think it's 1/41/19, but I believe from what I've read that it's better to go 0/41/20 or 0/40/21+succubus for a demo build. The 1/41/19 is easy enough by dropping shadowburn, but meh, I'm too much into that spell to drop it anytime soon.
As for leveling, it definitely isn't necessary, because you're essentially using your Felguard as a tank and using drains and health funnel more than shadow bolt/incinerate (and that is totally a preference choice there for solo - should always be sbolt in raids). It is nice if you're in groups a lot, though.
Shadowburn is an 11-point talent, going from 20 to 19 in destro doesnt force you to drop the only instant cast(un-talented/proc'd) burst spell a warlock has.
which in pve isn't needed. the 2/41/18 build exists because it brings corruption down to almost the base gcd (down to 1.2sec cast) and still has the important dps increasing talents in dest of intensity. to be honest you could drop the 1/2 demonic reach for shadowburn if you really wanted to as the decreased threat isn't needed for a demo build, just I personally would take it for the increased range
Yes, this is all what I have been hearing. I was talking mainly for leveling, ie, going from 50-70. Not raiding at end game. So it seems the skill is pretty much a 'take it if you like the idea' or 'leave it as it isn't that important for solo'ing' skill. I personally like the idea of it, but as my lock get more levels, i am seeing more and more things i would rather be spending the points on. And, I mainly duo with my wifes' BM hunter as well, so even more so I am not sure of this skill, as most things die so fast anyways, even in the mid-60's.
Quote:
the 2/41/18 build exists because it brings corruption down to almost the base gcd (down to 1.2sec cast)
That's why people go 1/41/19 - the GCD is 1.5s, and 1 point in Imp Corr brings it to 1.6 (without haste, 1.2s is under the GCD), which is a pretty negligible difference, and you can afford another point somewhere else (specifically, Destructive Reach in your example). Since Demo spams Shadow Bolt more than Affliction (only having three dots), it is very worthwhile for them to take both points in it, as well as Intensity. Besides that, Destructive Reach without Grim Reach for range is a pretty poor excuse for taking only one point. As right now, locks are some of the highest threat DPSers, we always want as much threat reduction as possible (a Demo raiding build doesn't lend to being able to get IDS though).
Edited, Oct 2nd 2008 11:56am by wingsofscion
seeing as up to 15% of your threat is generated by your pet, threat isn't an issue as demo. about the gcd.. don't quote me on this but I was under the assumption that due to the change to gcd so it can go down to 1second, any spell over a 1second cast's 'gcd' is based on its current cast time, so making 2/5 imp.cor (currently at least, come 3.0.2 cor becomes instant anyways) more worthwhile.
It takes like 700+ haste to get the GCD down to 1s - more than can actually be stacked in current game. Even with that much haste, though, 2 points in Corruption will be lower than the GCD (and 1.6s Corruption, with haste, will still be a negligible difference).
And while 15% of your threat is generated by your pet, how much of your threat is generated by Immolate and Shadow Bolt? Probably closer to 60-75% (depending on your curse duty). As far as cast time affecting GCD, that is not how it works; I can cast Rank 1 Healing Wave on my shaman, which has a 1s cast time, and with no haste, I am still subject to a 1.5s GCD (and yes, I do know this from fooling around with it).
The GCD is only lowered based on a specific spell (e.g., Shadowfury, which doesn't incur GCD) or by stacking haste.
And while 15% of your threat is generated by your pet, how much of your threat is generated by Immolate and Shadow Bolt? Probably closer to 60-75% (depending on your curse duty). As far as cast time affecting GCD, that is not how it works; I can cast Rank 1 Healing Wave on my shaman, which has a 1s cast time, and with no haste, I am still subject to a 1.5s GCD (and yes, I do know this from fooling around with it).
The GCD is only lowered based on a specific spell (e.g., Shadowfury, which doesn't incur GCD) or by stacking haste.
15% of your total damage ( total threat) being made by the pet is more of a threat reduction than the threat reducing talents, now seeing as this spec does LESS damage (and so threat) than a 0/21/40 build, the decrease in threat from demonic reach will never be needed presuming your tank knows what they're doing. and if your tank doesn't, well then get a new tank or show him some guides on how to not suck as he's holding back not just you, but everyone.
oh and you obviously didn't read what I said. last I checked, spells that have a cast time of less than the GCD (1.5 seconds), last i knew, didn't incure a gcd of 1.5 seconds but simply one of its cast time. hence why 2/5 imp.cor is the better choice. also in terms of haste, i never said getting down to a 1sec gcd (50% haste), but a 1.2sec gcd is actually doable (30% haste). maybe not on a passive not (passively a haste of 20-25% is around the 'cap' due to gear, so a 1.2-1.3sec gcd) but with procs (and regular procs at that, i.e. quag's eye) a 30% haste rating is easy. so having anything less than a 1.2 sec corruption from the outset would actually be a waste as if you put haste onto a 1.6 sec cast, it'll always be slightely slower than your gcd, but with a 1.2 sec cast it'll always make full use of your gcd aswell as provide you with a greater ability to move around and keep your dots up tighter.
simply put, the build I've put, with exception of that 1 point that could go into either Sburn or demonic reach, is the perfect pve demo spec
oh and you obviously didn't read what I said. last I checked, spells that have a cast time of less than the GCD (1.5 seconds), last i knew, didn't incure a gcd of 1.5 seconds but simply one of its cast time. hence why 2/5 imp.cor is the better choice. also in terms of haste, i never said getting down to a 1sec gcd (50% haste), but a 1.2sec gcd is actually doable (30% haste). maybe not on a passive not (passively a haste of 20-25% is around the 'cap' due to gear, so a 1.2-1.3sec gcd) but with procs (and regular procs at that, i.e. quag's eye) a 30% haste rating is easy. so having anything less than a 1.2 sec corruption from the outset would actually be a waste as if you put haste onto a 1.6 sec cast, it'll always be slightely slower than your gcd, but with a 1.2 sec cast it'll always make full use of your gcd aswell as provide you with a greater ability to move around and keep your dots up tighter.
simply put, the build I've put, with exception of that 1 point that could go into either Sburn or demonic reach, is the perfect pve demo spec
And I'm telling you that they DO incur the GCD. A 1s Healing Wave (at rank 1, on my resto shaman, it is a 1s cast) still incurs 1.5s GCD. Obviously, you didn't read what I posted.
You keep going on about pet threat, but I'm telling you to consider the threat of what you personally put out via Immolate and Shadow Bolt while using a Demo build. Since pet threat is actually separate from yours, I'm not taking that into consideration. But this build also does MORE damage than an affliction build (and thus, threat), and as affliction have caught up to tanks that outgear me before - and yes, they know what they're doing. Threat reduction is important to warlocks because they are the highest threat casters, and also have a resistable threat reduction (which actually makes shamans kinda suck in that regard, because they don't get threat reduction abilities).
With haste, a 1.2s cast is still going to be less than a 1.2s GCD to the same degree than 1.2s cast with no haste at 1.5s GCD (I think that makes sense?). Going under the GCD is DPS loss, because you could be doing other things in that time.
...Of course, none of this matters, because we're getting it instant in a month.
You keep going on about pet threat, but I'm telling you to consider the threat of what you personally put out via Immolate and Shadow Bolt while using a Demo build. Since pet threat is actually separate from yours, I'm not taking that into consideration. But this build also does MORE damage than an affliction build (and thus, threat), and as affliction have caught up to tanks that outgear me before - and yes, they know what they're doing. Threat reduction is important to warlocks because they are the highest threat casters, and also have a resistable threat reduction (which actually makes shamans kinda suck in that regard, because they don't get threat reduction abilities).
With haste, a 1.2s cast is still going to be less than a 1.2s GCD to the same degree than 1.2s cast with no haste at 1.5s GCD (I think that makes sense?). Going under the GCD is DPS loss, because you could be doing other things in that time.
...Of course, none of this matters, because we're getting it instant in a month.
BECAUSE the pet threat is seperate to yours, you don't have to worry about damage. demo specs rely on the pet dealing a decent amount of damage.. dest don't (currently)
soo..if you do say... 1000 damage as dest, that's 1000 threat or 900 threat with talents
as demo. you do 1000 damage combined. that's 1000 threat total, 850 to you, 150 to pet. hence, you don't need demonic reach for the threat reduction. ty for correcting me about the gcd part, but as I said, after some haste, 2/5 is better than 1/5 as you benefit more.
soo..if you do say... 1000 damage as dest, that's 1000 threat or 900 threat with talents
as demo. you do 1000 damage combined. that's 1000 threat total, 850 to you, 150 to pet. hence, you don't need demonic reach for the threat reduction. ty for correcting me about the gcd part, but as I said, after some haste, 2/5 is better than 1/5 as you benefit more.
Stop talking about pet damage. We are talking about the warlock's threat, not the pet's. The warlock's threat is NOT split with the pet. The damage and threat that the pet is putting out does not matter when it comes to the warlock itself.
If YOU do 1000 damage, as any spec, YOU do 1000 damage. If YOU AND YOUR PET do a combined total of 1000 damage, then YOU AND YOUR PET do a combined total of 1000 damage. See the difference here?
So, Destro doing 1k dmg with talents only produces 900 threat, Salv, Subtlety and Tranquil Air notwithstanding.
Demo doing 1k dmg (as in, the warlock, not warlock+pet) with 1/2 Destructive Reach, puts out 950 threat.
Also, it's Destructive Reach, not Demonic Reach. And in the wide world of min/maxing, you're better off taking 2/2 Destructive Reach and 1/5 Imp. Corruption with current gaming itemization and standards (and Shadowburn, actually).
...Actually, with current gaming itemization and standards, you're better off with a 41/0/20, 40/0/21, or 0/21/40 spec than a Demo spec.
If YOU do 1000 damage, as any spec, YOU do 1000 damage. If YOU AND YOUR PET do a combined total of 1000 damage, then YOU AND YOUR PET do a combined total of 1000 damage. See the difference here?
So, Destro doing 1k dmg with talents only produces 900 threat, Salv, Subtlety and Tranquil Air notwithstanding.
Demo doing 1k dmg (as in, the warlock, not warlock+pet) with 1/2 Destructive Reach, puts out 950 threat.
Also, it's Destructive Reach, not Demonic Reach. And in the wide world of min/maxing, you're better off taking 2/2 Destructive Reach and 1/5 Imp. Corruption with current gaming itemization and standards (and Shadowburn, actually).
...Actually, with current gaming itemization and standards, you're better off with a 41/0/20, 40/0/21, or 0/21/40 spec than a Demo spec.
yes i know their threat is seperate.. but the reason WHY i'm using both is because the warlocks ability to solo generate threat (damage) is greatly nerfed as a demo lock. to look at it another way..
dest lock generates 1000 dps, including talents, that's 900 tps.
demo lock, generates 850 dps, so 850 tps.
yes, for 1000 damage the demo lock will do more threat than a dest lock dealing 1000 damage.. sadly it's not THREAT that's the issue but THREAT PER SECOND.. and that's where a demo lock has the advantage, their personal TPS (DPS) is lower than a dest lock, so they'll never have to worry about pulling hate.
demo locks rely on their pets BECAUSE their solo damage isn't comparable to that of a dest spec, the simple fact that, presuming they can deal as much damage as a dest lock, up to 15% of that damage is done by their pet MEANS that they're already solo generating less threat than a dest lock. and if a dest lock doesn't pull hate then there's no way the demo lock will pull hate.
oh and with current game mechanics, a 2/41/18 build is actually the 2nd best dps spec for us, it's damage is actually only about 50-100 dps below a dest lock IF the pet gets the chance to dps fully... but 0/21/40 wins overall due to the increased solo damage and increased raid damage.
with the concept of min/maxing, a slight dps increase in corruption > an unneeded threat decrease. and yes for total raid scenarios (so trash included) shadowburn would be better than 1/2 destructive reach (i'm bad with names, so easy to type demonic reach without thinking it's wrong :P) but it is kinda down to personal preference and I don't use Sburn much.
Edited, Oct 4th 2008 6:17am by Jenovaomega
dest lock generates 1000 dps, including talents, that's 900 tps.
demo lock, generates 850 dps, so 850 tps.
yes, for 1000 damage the demo lock will do more threat than a dest lock dealing 1000 damage.. sadly it's not THREAT that's the issue but THREAT PER SECOND.. and that's where a demo lock has the advantage, their personal TPS (DPS) is lower than a dest lock, so they'll never have to worry about pulling hate.
demo locks rely on their pets BECAUSE their solo damage isn't comparable to that of a dest spec, the simple fact that, presuming they can deal as much damage as a dest lock, up to 15% of that damage is done by their pet MEANS that they're already solo generating less threat than a dest lock. and if a dest lock doesn't pull hate then there's no way the demo lock will pull hate.
oh and with current game mechanics, a 2/41/18 build is actually the 2nd best dps spec for us, it's damage is actually only about 50-100 dps below a dest lock IF the pet gets the chance to dps fully... but 0/21/40 wins overall due to the increased solo damage and increased raid damage.
with the concept of min/maxing, a slight dps increase in corruption > an unneeded threat decrease. and yes for total raid scenarios (so trash included) shadowburn would be better than 1/2 destructive reach (i'm bad with names, so easy to type demonic reach without thinking it's wrong :P) but it is kinda down to personal preference and I don't use Sburn much.
Edited, Oct 4th 2008 6:17am by Jenovaomega
Proof? I have heard everywhere that 1/41/19 is better.
proof? well simple
1/5 corruption = 1.6 second cast, so still above GCD and will be regardless of how much haste you have
2/5 corruption = 1.2 second cast, so 0.3 below gcd from the outset, i.e. 0.1 seconds faster than the 1/5 corruption as well as having a much greater dpsc so also allowing you more room in your spell rotation as you can recast corruption at a later time.
bonuses from destructive reach... 6 additional yards for half the spells you'll use, also meaning that even if you are in range for the dest spells, you'll still need to move in closer anyways so the increased range is useless.
10% less threat. only useful if you have a poor tank.. and seeing as you generally should only be speccing demo for pve after having 2/5 T5... so in theory your tank should at least be alright
1/5 corruption = 1.6 second cast, so still above GCD and will be regardless of how much haste you have
2/5 corruption = 1.2 second cast, so 0.3 below gcd from the outset, i.e. 0.1 seconds faster than the 1/5 corruption as well as having a much greater dpsc so also allowing you more room in your spell rotation as you can recast corruption at a later time.
bonuses from destructive reach... 6 additional yards for half the spells you'll use, also meaning that even if you are in range for the dest spells, you'll still need to move in closer anyways so the increased range is useless.
10% less threat. only useful if you have a poor tank.. and seeing as you generally should only be speccing demo for pve after having 2/5 T5... so in theory your tank should at least be alright
Thoerycrafting != proof.
sure it does. that's like saying "1 apple + 1 apple = 2 apples" isn't true in reality just 'cos i'm writing it down and it's not taking into account other variables like the size of the apple.. whether or not it's damage (so not whole) or if the apple is fully grown or not. theorycrafting IS proof and it's more than capable of coming out with very accurate results compared to practical testing.. if it didn't then nobody would bother doing so. you're just being stubborn 'cos you hate me being right
No, I'm calling you an idiot because .1s downtime is less than .3s downtime. In practical terms, the time from loss of ability to cast by being below GCD is more than the extra time casting. In the world of min/maxing, 1.6s > 1.2s.
I will say again, though, this doesn't matter because Corruption will soon enough be instant cast. No sense in arguing about something that will be moot in less than a month.
I will say again, though, this doesn't matter because Corruption will soon enough be instant cast. No sense in arguing about something that will be moot in less than a month.
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