Having been combat spec all of my rogue (and WoW) life I am now ready to try my hand at PvP and trying to put much of the info here to work. I just respecced the 20/0/41 that the compendium references. I assume one would almost always start with Premed->CS simply for the CPs, and so I will probably macro that. After that would you go with a 5pt S&D? (I know S&D is critical in PvE, but would stunning or some type of burst damage take priority here in PvP?) After using 5pts in whatever, I assume I Hemo to rebuild CP. Throw in some KS as they are available along with some ruptures. Still finish with Evis once the end is in sight? When is Prep used? As an emergency to get your Evasion or Vanish up in a pinch? And where does Ghostly Strikes fit in? Also I assumed you start from stealth with the Premed->CS..but when is ShS used? Once you are already engaged to close the distance as your target starts to flee?
Thanks for any help you can give.
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Noob Rogue Question: PvP Skills & RotationsFollow
Do I need to put up a special sticky saying:
THERE ARE NO ROTATIONS IN PVP
before people understand that using the same moves at the same time every single time without reacting to your opponent is ******* retarded?
Watch a ******* PvP video and stop being an idiot.
THERE ARE NO ROTATIONS IN PVP
before people understand that using the same moves at the same time every single time without reacting to your opponent is ******* retarded?
Watch a ******* PvP video and stop being an idiot.
There is no definitive series of steps to take in PvP. For instance, in most cases it's good to open with a cheap shot, but it is better to open with garrote on a mage (two second silence, a mage can blink out of stuns). Sometimes it's better to pool energy rather than build combo points, so that you can kick, gouge, and kidney shot spells (great against resto shamans who just spam lhw). Getting a rupture on a target is generally better than an eviscerate (resilience almost nullifies eviscerate's usefullness, and a five point rupture is great to leave on someone when you know you have to switch targets.)
It comes down to a choice, whether to control or to damage, and the correct decision lies largely on the circumstances that evolve over the course of the fight.
To answer some of your more specific questions...
Prep is used when you need it or when you've already blown all your cooldowns anyway.
Ghostly Strikes fits in when you need to go toe-to-toe with a warrior. (evasion + ghostly strikes = good)
ShS is used when you need to get to someone in a hurry - as in, to interrupt a devastating heal or to stop someone from drinking or to peel somebody off a teammate. You can also use it for getting saps you otherwise wouldnt get.
For example, save ShS for when a mage blinks, then ShS KS.
It comes down to a choice, whether to control or to damage, and the correct decision lies largely on the circumstances that evolve over the course of the fight.
To answer some of your more specific questions...
Prep is used when you need it or when you've already blown all your cooldowns anyway.
Ghostly Strikes fits in when you need to go toe-to-toe with a warrior. (evasion + ghostly strikes = good)
ShS is used when you need to get to someone in a hurry - as in, to interrupt a devastating heal or to stop someone from drinking or to peel somebody off a teammate. You can also use it for getting saps you otherwise wouldnt get.
For example, save ShS for when a mage blinks, then ShS KS.
note: I'm no PvP expert, so take my comments with a grain of salt....
Some of your questions will be quickly answered in about 10 min of a battleground. Experience is the best teacher. Just get in there and try stuff out. If you're going to get into PvP, you're gonna want the Honor points anyway to spend on PvP-specific gear. Yes, even with the expansion coming up.
Another good way to learn some simple tactics is to duel guildies/friends. Ask them how they deal with you, encourage them to ask about your tactics. Experiment.
Other than that: I use premed before opening up to have the Combo Points available for a quick 5-point something. Just gives you more flexibility. The situation and opponent determine what that something is (stun casters, bleed warriors, etc). But as noted: there is no "PvP rotation" (although is can be argued that there is a fairly standard stun-lock sequence). When running BGs on my rogue, I also go with 20/0/41 (or close variation) using Hemo as the main CB generation. Prep often helps with Vanish cooldowns, but has other uses. Shadowstep is great for catching blinking mages, or for shiving those pesky shape-shifting druids. But, again, experience will be the best teacher.
Most importantly I'd say learn to be highly situationally aware. Knowing where the battle stands, how many allies you have nearby, where the flag is, which node is hotly contested, etc... is vital to helping you contribute to a win as well as help you determine what ability to use, which enemy to use it on, and when.
Links of interest: epic EJ PvP thread, wowmovies, arenajunkies, theo's pvp faq
And above all, have fun! Good luck.
Some of your questions will be quickly answered in about 10 min of a battleground. Experience is the best teacher. Just get in there and try stuff out. If you're going to get into PvP, you're gonna want the Honor points anyway to spend on PvP-specific gear. Yes, even with the expansion coming up.
Another good way to learn some simple tactics is to duel guildies/friends. Ask them how they deal with you, encourage them to ask about your tactics. Experiment.
Other than that: I use premed before opening up to have the Combo Points available for a quick 5-point something. Just gives you more flexibility. The situation and opponent determine what that something is (stun casters, bleed warriors, etc). But as noted: there is no "PvP rotation" (although is can be argued that there is a fairly standard stun-lock sequence). When running BGs on my rogue, I also go with 20/0/41 (or close variation) using Hemo as the main CB generation. Prep often helps with Vanish cooldowns, but has other uses. Shadowstep is great for catching blinking mages, or for shiving those pesky shape-shifting druids. But, again, experience will be the best teacher.
Most importantly I'd say learn to be highly situationally aware. Knowing where the battle stands, how many allies you have nearby, where the flag is, which node is hotly contested, etc... is vital to helping you contribute to a win as well as help you determine what ability to use, which enemy to use it on, and when.
Links of interest: epic EJ PvP thread, wowmovies, arenajunkies, theo's pvp faq
And above all, have fun! Good luck.
Scholar
16 posts
Overlord Theophany wrote:
Do I need to put up a special sticky saying:
THERE ARE NO ROTATIONS IN PVP
before people understand that using the same moves at the same time every single time without reacting to your opponent is @#%^ing retarded?
Watch a @#%^ing PvP video and stop being an idiot.
THERE ARE NO ROTATIONS IN PVP
before people understand that using the same moves at the same time every single time without reacting to your opponent is @#%^ing retarded?
Watch a @#%^ing PvP video and stop being an idiot.
Nope, no sticky needed. If I had suggested anywhere in my post that I thought there was one single set of key strokes you needed to press every single time..that would be idiotic. As others have stated THERE ARE MANY TYPES OF ROTATIONS IN PVP. If you can show me one single successful rogue that does not use some sort of rotation in every fight (even if it is a different rotation each time) then I will retract my statement. I am not even sure how you would even deviate from a basic Opener->CP build->finisher->CP build->finisher->(repeat until dead) rotation. I guess you could try and not repeat any sequence of keystrokes at all (maybe just spam Hemo the whole fight)but not having some sort of rotation seems idiotic to me (but not to Theo).
Whatever, I have still learned more from Theo's 50% "useful posts" to more than make up for his other 50% "posting to be a jerk" posts.
Thanks to the others for their actual helpful answers.
Quote:
Nope, no sticky needed. If I had suggested anywhere in my post that I thought there was one single set of key strokes you needed to press every single time..that would be idiotic. As others have stated THERE ARE MANY TYPES OF ROTATIONS IN PVP. If you can show me one single successful rogue that does not use some sort of rotation in every fight (even if it is a different rotation each time) then I will retract my statement. I am not even sure how you would even deviate from a basic Opener->CP build->finisher->CP build->finisher->(repeat until dead) rotation. I guess you could try and not repeat any sequence of keystrokes at all (maybe just spam Hemo the whole fight)but not having some sort of rotation seems idiotic to me (but not to Theo).
A rotation implies a set order of abilities. What you actually do in PvP is adapt the abilities to the situation.
You use combo point builders before you use a finisher? No way! It still isn't a rotation except under the loosest possible definition, not the one used in the game (a set attack order).
Edited, Sep 29th 2008 7:06pm by RPZip
Commonly, the word "rotation" implies a very specific order of key-strokes used every time it's possible. In PvE raiding for example, I use 3s4r every time it's possible during a boss fight. Deviations occur, but sticking to the rotation (which is different for different builds/gear/etc) provides optimal DPS uptime on target during sustained fights.
In PvP the situation changes too dynamically for this to be feasible. You're not going to stand there and wail on anyone who isn't DC'd. Of course we have to use the mechanics of the class (opener->CBs->finisher) to a large extent, that's just how the game works. But you're not going to use exactly the same set of abilities every time you attack a PvP opponent. There is far more diversity in PvP situations than in PvE boss fights (sadly) that makes it impossible to have a set rotation for every fight.
Looks like the disagreement is over definitions. Hope the above makes sense.
In PvP the situation changes too dynamically for this to be feasible. You're not going to stand there and wail on anyone who isn't DC'd. Of course we have to use the mechanics of the class (opener->CBs->finisher) to a large extent, that's just how the game works. But you're not going to use exactly the same set of abilities every time you attack a PvP opponent. There is far more diversity in PvP situations than in PvE boss fights (sadly) that makes it impossible to have a set rotation for every fight.
Looks like the disagreement is over definitions. Hope the above makes sense.
Scholar
16 posts
RPZip wrote:
A rotation implies a set order of abilities. What you actually do in PvP is adapt the abilities to the situation.
You use combo point builders before you use a finisher? No way! It still isn't a rotation except under the loosest possible definition, not the one used in the game (a set attack order).
Edited, Sep 29th 2008 7:06pm by RPZip
In order for a rotation to be useful you HAVE to deviate from it at least some of the time. Even in pve. Your rotation may be CS-SnD-SS-SS-SS-SS-Rup but if a caster starts throwing a spell after the 2nd SS you might Kick...or it may happen after the 3rd. You might have an add spawn and throw in a blade flurry. You might need a garrote and bandage. There is always going to be flexability in your rotation, and much more so in pvp. But with all the theorycrafting done on this board, there is bound to be some guidelines as to what to look for in a given target. Against a mage you are going to want to try opening with this..then following up with this if he counters with this. On a warrior don't bother with this...just throw such and such at them and go right to such and such. Theo has an entire section on 'you do this, they should do that, you counter with this, etc', I was just asking for basics as I have never played anything other than combat swords throwing out SS. And I simply was asking when the new (to me) active abilities in this build (Hemo, Prep, Premed, Ghostly, ShS) would best be used. And Eon and Therion both gave multiple examples as to when certain abilities would best be utilized.
EDIT: Or...errr...what Therion just posted. So yeah..sorry..it appears to be a definition thing.
Edited, Sep 29th 2008 7:32pm by kjckjc
kjckjc wrote:
So yeah..sorry..it appears to be a definition thing.
It's actually an idiot thing; it has nothing to do with definitions.
Convince yourself any way you want, but you're still an idiot in my book.
Scholar
16 posts
Overlord Theophany wrote:
kjckjc wrote:
So yeah..sorry..it appears to be a definition thing.
It's actually an idiot thing; it has nothing to do with definitions.
Convince yourself any way you want, but you're still an idiot in my book.
I don't need to convince myself...I need you to convince me. In the PvP thread (that you wrote) you define strategies that would be used against differing targets. Unless you are stating that what you wrote was pure bunk and that every single fight you get into should be 100% made up on the spot, I don't see how I am an idiot. I asked when certain abilities would be used against certain classes. Eon and Therion answered those questions with the caveat that you still need to be flexible. If having a general idea of what you were going to do against a certain class is idiotic, then why bother writing an entire section of your PVP FAQ on it? Trying to be a better rogue isn't idiotic, calling people idiots when you know about a thousand different things that would be helpful to tell them is.
kjckjc wrote:
Overlord Theophany wrote:
kjckjc wrote:
So yeah..sorry..it appears to be a definition thing.
It's actually an idiot thing; it has nothing to do with definitions.
Convince yourself any way you want, but you're still an idiot in my book.
I don't need to convince myself...I need you to convince me. In the PvP thread (that you wrote) you define strategies that would be used against differing targets. Unless you are stating that what you wrote was pure bunk and that every single fight you get into should be 100% made up on the spot, I don't see how I am an idiot. I asked when certain abilities would be used against certain classes. Eon and Therion answered those questions with the caveat that you still need to be flexible. If having a general idea of what you were going to do against a certain class is idiotic, then why bother writing an entire section of your PVP FAQ on it? Trying to be a better rogue isn't idiotic, calling people idiots when you know about a thousand different things that would be helpful to tell them is.
It's idiotic to ask when it should be common sense after reading my PvP FAQ completely.
Look, most of PvP is twitch-mechanics and you really do make up most of it on the fly. That's all I can say. There's no "rotation" as such, but everyone naturally has certain strategies for different opponents.
For example, you'll want to open with Garrote on a mage, because Blink removes stuns, but it's possible that he just blew Blink two seconds ago in which case CS is a much better option. Conversely, you will always want to open with CS on a warlock, as anything else would let him get off a fear (2sec silence doesn't do much, from the locks I've spoken to). But, if the warlock is an orc, he has a 15% chance to resist stuns...so you might want to reconsider. You see what I'm getting at?
It all changes drastically depending on a number of factors, and the best thing to do is go out into a BG and get your *** kicked a couple dozen times until you realise what to do. As a general rule, Rupture is better than Eviscerate, Cheap Shot is better than Garrote, SnD isn't much use, people tend to trinket out of KS and not CS, and Prep is most commonly used for the second Vanish over anything else. Hitting CoS before vanishing is something you should get used to quickly. Save Evasion for when you're fighting other rogues, not warriors, and save Sprint for when you need to get the hell away from something.
In case you're worried Theo's just jerking your chain. He'll switch to Helpful Theo so long as you're polite. If you get as narky as he is he'll derail the entire thread and you won't get any help.
For example, you'll want to open with Garrote on a mage, because Blink removes stuns, but it's possible that he just blew Blink two seconds ago in which case CS is a much better option. Conversely, you will always want to open with CS on a warlock, as anything else would let him get off a fear (2sec silence doesn't do much, from the locks I've spoken to). But, if the warlock is an orc, he has a 15% chance to resist stuns...so you might want to reconsider. You see what I'm getting at?
It all changes drastically depending on a number of factors, and the best thing to do is go out into a BG and get your *** kicked a couple dozen times until you realise what to do. As a general rule, Rupture is better than Eviscerate, Cheap Shot is better than Garrote, SnD isn't much use, people tend to trinket out of KS and not CS, and Prep is most commonly used for the second Vanish over anything else. Hitting CoS before vanishing is something you should get used to quickly. Save Evasion for when you're fighting other rogues, not warriors, and save Sprint for when you need to get the hell away from something.
In case you're worried Theo's just jerking your chain. He'll switch to Helpful Theo so long as you're polite. If you get as narky as he is he'll derail the entire thread and you won't get any help.
Quote:
In the PvP thread (that you wrote) you define strategies that would be used against differing targets.
and
Quote:
I asked when certain abilities would be used against certain classes.
contradicts itself.
If you read the PVP FAQ, you would know that each class has it's own counters. Those can be different because you may encounter them in different situations. Logical right?
PVP in a BG isn't real PVP in my book unless it's one on one and both of you have all your cooldowns and are at full health and mana. 3 vs 1, 5 vs 1, killing someone with low mana / low health etc is just plain old ganking. As a stealthed rogue, ideally you have the choice of initiating combat. You only need to adapt whatever you attack.
Example:
1v1 for a mage (i hope you use one of the PVP hemo builds), my tactics => premed -> shadowstep -> garrote -> hemo if needed to 5 point, then expose armor -> (this is usually when he blinks) sprint (if he fired frostbolts or your frozen to the ground CLoS -> (maybe get a 1 point SnD in there) hemo X 5 and try to get a KS off. -> (he'll probably trinket or try to blink that) -> vanish -> shadowstep -> CS -> and just hemo. Most of the time they'll be dead. You have still have two CC abilities that you can use if the mage is better than you at controlling the fight. Blind and gouge still remains. You also still have prep if you want to add another garrote + KS combo or just finish it of with CS and hemo X 5.
Preffered poisons :
mind numbing + crip
A warrior on the other hand is a completely different story.
1v1 vs a warrior, my tactics => premed -> shadowstep -> garrote -> hemo if needed to 5 point, then expose armor -> he'll be using hamstring, deep wound (to keep you from stealthing) and probably mortal strike (not 100% sure about this, i'm not very perceptive in pvp situations, hence my lolrating at arena :P) -> in any case this is a great time to use either ghostly strike or evasion to dodge most of the incoming damage -> hemo to 5 points again -> rupture -> check when the deep wound runs out + vanish -> shadowstep -> garrote -> either use the 2-3 points you get for SnD or build up to 5 for a stun or evis. You still have goude + blind + prep if needed. You can try the bleed cycle again.
Preffered poisons :
crip + deadly/instant
I'm not saying i'm great at PVP (usually i forget to blind + sap or even use ghostly strike) but these sort of strategies can be read all over and are also very logical. A mage is very good at CC and very mobile, so you need to save shadowstep and sprint for when he uses blink for example. A warrior has high armor, so you need something that ignores armor (bleeds) or use expose armor.
Please read up on the class before asking questions that can be answered. The rogue forums are a very cruel place :)
samperor wrote:
A warrior has high armor, so you need something that ignores armor (bleeds) or use expose armor.
What?!
I'm not expert at pvp, I only have full S2 set and S4 legs, some stuff bought for honor points but using expose armor on warrior who have ********* of armor is just... wrong. Bleeds are better: garrote, rupture.
To OP: read PvP FAQ, go to arena forum and read topics there, watch movies how others play rogue and practice. Duel with your friends, with your guildies. You can also go to official WoW forum and in rogue forum you should find sticky topic about PvPing as a rogue (but if I were you, I would stick with elitistjerks and Theo's PvP guide here).
didnt say i was an expert either, just said what i do :)
Most of the time, i already have either garrote and/or rupture on the target and have points to waste. Besides i have improved expose armor in my build :P
This is the "rotation" i have in my fingers and my head when confronting warriors, it comes from teaming up with a druid in arena. It's not perfect. I'm aware of that but works for me. Especially when i have a second series of attacks with prep.
General rule of thumb for warriors is indeed garrote+rupture > expose armor.
Most of the time, i already have either garrote and/or rupture on the target and have points to waste. Besides i have improved expose armor in my build :P
This is the "rotation" i have in my fingers and my head when confronting warriors, it comes from teaming up with a druid in arena. It's not perfect. I'm aware of that but works for me. Especially when i have a second series of attacks with prep.
General rule of thumb for warriors is indeed garrote+rupture > expose armor.
Drayna wrote:
What?!
I'm not expert at pvp, I only have full S2 set and S4 legs, some stuff bought for honor points but using expose armor on warrior who have sh*tloads of armor is just... wrong. Bleeds are better: garrote, rupture.
I'm not expert at pvp, I only have full S2 set and S4 legs, some stuff bought for honor points but using expose armor on warrior who have sh*tloads of armor is just... wrong. Bleeds are better: garrote, rupture.
I assume it's more beneficial if you have another rogue attacking the same target. I don't use it, though. My usual run against a warrior is premed>garrote>hemo-to-5>rupture, then start running circles around them spamming hemo and refreshing rupture, unless he's >10% in which case eviscerate is doable.
My new 2v2 partner gets EA up on him all the time, especially against rogue/rogue.
samperor wrote:
didnt say i was an expert either, just said what i do :)
Most of the time, i already have either garrote and/or rupture on the target and have points to waste. Besides i have improved expose armor in my build :P
Most of the time, i already have either garrote and/or rupture on the target and have points to waste. Besides i have improved expose armor in my build :P
That is your first problem assuming you're shs.
samperor wrote:
General rule of thumb for warriors is indeed garrote+rupture > expose armor.
EA = Clothies. Putting an EA on a warrior with 18k armor is akin to equipping a whiffle ball bat.
ThomasMagnum wrote:
samperor wrote:
didnt say i was an expert either, just said what i do :)
Most of the time, i already have either garrote and/or rupture on the target and have points to waste. Besides i have improved expose armor in my build :P
Most of the time, i already have either garrote and/or rupture on the target and have points to waste. Besides i have improved expose armor in my build :P
That is your first problem assuming you're shs.
Why would it be a problem?
Lots of builds use Imp Expose effectively, especially 17/0/44 and 20/0/41.
Lethality sucks for PvP FYI. We take it because there's nothing else better and we need filler to get to Vile.
I've seen ghostly strike mentioned twice when going up against a warrior. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't you just kill yourself by doing that? Won't a warrior then get to overpower you and kill you very fast? Same with evasion. You pop that against a warrior and I'd expect you're as good as dead. Am I missing something here?
bsgnitro wrote:
I've seen ghostly strike mentioned twice when going up against a warrior. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't you just kill yourself by doing that? Won't a warrior then get to overpower you and kill you very fast? Same with evasion. You pop that against a warrior and I'd expect you're as good as dead. Am I missing something here?
You can Overpower once every 5 seconds. The chance of you dodging at least one attack (esp. if they're using Spamstring) is extremely high even without Evasion, which means they can use OP whenever it's up... but you're still eating the Mortal Strikes and white attacks anyway.
You're going to dodge enough they can use Overpower anyway; don't let the Warrior get Overpowers _AND_ MS/White attacks. If you hit Evasion (or just boost it a bit with Ghostly Strike) they'll get less normal damage on you and rely more and more on the Overpowers, which are on cooldown anyway.
bsgnitro wrote:
I've seen ghostly strike mentioned twice when going up against a warrior. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't you just kill yourself by doing that? Won't a warrior then get to overpower you and kill you very fast? Same with evasion. You pop that against a warrior and I'd expect you're as good as dead. Am I missing something here?
Pretty much what RPZip said. Only bad rogues don't use Evasion/GS on Warriors.
Edit: and RPZip can correct me on this, but they usually have to stance-dance to Overpower anyway.
Edited, Sep 30th 2008 12:27pm by Theophany
Overlord Theophany wrote:
bsgnitro wrote:
I've seen ghostly strike mentioned twice when going up against a warrior. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't you just kill yourself by doing that? Won't a warrior then get to overpower you and kill you very fast? Same with evasion. You pop that against a warrior and I'd expect you're as good as dead. Am I missing something here?
Pretty much what RPZip said. Only bad rogues don't use Evasion/GS on Warriors.
Edit: and RPZip can correct me on this, but they usually have to stance-dance to Overpower anyway.
Edited, Sep 30th 2008 12:27pm by Theophany
It depends.
In group PvP you spend most of your time in Berserker Stance, which gives you a Fear (Gouge) Break, Intercept, Pummel and Whirlwind. When dueling a Rogue, the smart move is to pop Berserker Rage preemptively (to stop a Gouge), go into Battle Stance and throw a Shield on and wait for Overpowers to pop up. Then you stance dance to Disarm and Intercept (usually Intercept->Disarm so it can't be dodged if you know what you're doing, although WS->Disarm works too if you're a Tauren).
Disarm usually leads into a Blind and chances are your Trinket is down after breaking a KS, but at least it's harder for them to bandage and if you're really smart you'll actually Rend to stop them from easily stealthing or bandaging during the Blind. Then you just wear them down, keeping up debuffs (Demo Shout and TC) to slow your incoming damage along with the shield.
I assumed EA wasn't viable in a 20/0/41 arena build, and I kill clothies well enough without it. I wasn't saying it wasn't viable at all, but should have clarified the spec I was referring to.
Got it. So using ghostly stike and evasion dodges more damage than you would take without them even while absorbing more overpowers. That's cool, because I like my ghostly strike! : )
ThomasMagnum wrote:
I assumed EA wasn't viable in a 20/0/41 arena build, and I kill clothies well enough without it. I wasn't saying it wasn't viable at all, but should have clarified the spec I was referring to.
Try killing a disc priest with 494 resilience.
Overlord Theophany wrote:
ThomasMagnum wrote:
I assumed EA wasn't viable in a 20/0/41 arena build, and I kill clothies well enough without it. I wasn't saying it wasn't viable at all, but should have clarified the spec I was referring to.
Try killing a disc priest with 494 resilience.
Try tossing your cat out the window on the highway. Probably just as hard.
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