Damn it, I DON"T WANT TO SPAM SS ANYMORE. Please stop nerfing 51/5/5 and buffing combat. Please, for the love of all that is good and decent make them both at least VIABLE!!!
/endrant
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I like that I don't pve anymore and have to care about that ****.
MUT/PREP 08!
MUT/PREP 08!
I looked around EJ and on here but there isn't an actual explicit explanation...
Whats the difference between Muti and Combat? As far as I could tell it was the same thing(spamming your main Damage dealer and watching your combo points) except Muti had a bit of a different rotation.
Someone want to enlighten me?
Whats the difference between Muti and Combat? As far as I could tell it was the same thing(spamming your main Damage dealer and watching your combo points) except Muti had a bit of a different rotation.
Someone want to enlighten me?
Mut is just all around more fun.
The fact that your rotation varies from move to move depending on your cp generation every few seconds.
It basically is a lot more variety than 1s/5r for eternity.
The fact that your rotation varies from move to move depending on your cp generation every few seconds.
It basically is a lot more variety than 1s/5r for eternity.
Alright, thats what I thought it was. So at the very base level its still the same, its just more dynamic.
Thank you, I thought there was some mystical Muti secret I was missing.
Thank you, I thought there was some mystical Muti secret I was missing.
The PvE rogue is all about proper gearing and rotations (and not standing in bad things). Sad but true.
Muti is not as "static" as combat. With combat rotations, it's just keeping an optimal button-mashing series to keep up SnD. Muti, on the other hand, you actually have to watch your energy regen, pooling when needed and make small adjustments here and there. It also looks like interweaving finishers will be possible now with Cut to the Chase. What a world of fun to have a 5pt Rupture ticking away when a 6k Envenom crit lands.
Basically, I'm finding Muti so much fun on a very basic level in beta, and I don't relish the thought of going back to spamming SS at 80 when my raid starts hitting that content and I need to min/max. I will if that's what it takes, but... I wanz to haz daggerz fer raiding now!
EDIT:
Too bad you can't level on HKs
Edited, Sep 25th 2008 12:57pm by TherionSaysWhat
Muti is not as "static" as combat. With combat rotations, it's just keeping an optimal button-mashing series to keep up SnD. Muti, on the other hand, you actually have to watch your energy regen, pooling when needed and make small adjustments here and there. It also looks like interweaving finishers will be possible now with Cut to the Chase. What a world of fun to have a 5pt Rupture ticking away when a 6k Envenom crit lands.
Basically, I'm finding Muti so much fun on a very basic level in beta, and I don't relish the thought of going back to spamming SS at 80 when my raid starts hitting that content and I need to min/max. I will if that's what it takes, but... I wanz to haz daggerz fer raiding now!
EDIT:
MyTeddy wrote:
I like that I don't pve anymore and have to care about that sh*t.
Too bad you can't level on HKs
Edited, Sep 25th 2008 12:57pm by TherionSaysWhat
Relaaaax Ther, Take a chill pill.
Even after the last Assass nerf, the EJ nerds still had a raiding Mut build as doing 15% more dps than Combat (Theo linked the topic, or at the very least mentioned this). With the latest nerf, it now does 3% less, so it's still 12% more as a raiding spec.
Unfortunately (Assuming these are fairly close figures / estimates), we should either expect more Assass nerfs, coupled to Combat buffs ... or a few insane combat buffs. I seriously believe the intention is to bring both in line with each other so that there are no more clear cut lines wrt the ideal raiding tree.
Bottom line, it seems if you want to change to Mut for raiding, you'll not be gimping yourself for not going combat.
I, on the other hand .. have just finished a series of excrutiating BG grinds to pick up the S2 Slicer / Quickblade ... no way in hell I'm going back in there to get some daggers ... so I'm praying to the WoW gods that combat becomes at least close in viability to what Assass is right now.
Even after the last Assass nerf, the EJ nerds still had a raiding Mut build as doing 15% more dps than Combat (Theo linked the topic, or at the very least mentioned this). With the latest nerf, it now does 3% less, so it's still 12% more as a raiding spec.
Unfortunately (Assuming these are fairly close figures / estimates), we should either expect more Assass nerfs, coupled to Combat buffs ... or a few insane combat buffs. I seriously believe the intention is to bring both in line with each other so that there are no more clear cut lines wrt the ideal raiding tree.
Bottom line, it seems if you want to change to Mut for raiding, you'll not be gimping yourself for not going combat.
I, on the other hand .. have just finished a series of excrutiating BG grinds to pick up the S2 Slicer / Quickblade ... no way in hell I'm going back in there to get some daggers ... so I'm praying to the WoW gods that combat becomes at least close in viability to what Assass is right now.
I'm probably the biggest Cookie Cutter hater/avoider out there and even I might be heading Muti soonish... I suppose that has to say something =P
Mozared wrote:
I'm probably the biggest Cookie Cutter hater/avoider ****** out there and even I might be heading Muti soonish... I suppose that has to say something =P
Fixed.
I'd like for Combat to be about the same viability as Mutilate, but I don't think it's going to happen.
Looks like I'll be getting daggers and maces in WotLK.
I really just want Muti and Combat to be equally viable for serious raiding. That's all. They teased us so far that it would be possible, now I pray they will make it so in live.
In PvE questing spec doesn't really matter, PvP is an entirely different enchilada; but having 2 equally good builds for raiding...... /dreams..... Even giving up a small percentage of personal DPS for a good rDPS buff would be great. Rogues could trade specs, switching every month or something, thus giving us a variety of raiding experience. Also allowing us to have more gearing options with drops.
But don't dangle this great change (2 viable raiding specs) only to nerf one to worthlessness again and expect me not to ***** about it. Rumor is that the next beta build will have some serious combat buffs, thus pushing the two raid builds further apart for raiders. /le sigh
Sorry for the rant, but the excitement over actually being able to raid as something other than combat is now starting to turn to disappointment over a mighty nerf-bat. And I'm not alone.
/endrant (?)
In PvE questing spec doesn't really matter, PvP is an entirely different enchilada; but having 2 equally good builds for raiding...... /dreams..... Even giving up a small percentage of personal DPS for a good rDPS buff would be great. Rogues could trade specs, switching every month or something, thus giving us a variety of raiding experience. Also allowing us to have more gearing options with drops.
But don't dangle this great change (2 viable raiding specs) only to nerf one to worthlessness again and expect me not to ***** about it. Rumor is that the next beta build will have some serious combat buffs, thus pushing the two raid builds further apart for raiders. /le sigh
Sorry for the rant, but the excitement over actually being able to raid as something other than combat is now starting to turn to disappointment over a mighty nerf-bat. And I'm not alone.
/endrant (?)
Nothing much has really changed recently, mutilate is still the top build for rogues in raids.
I don't think you have much to worry about.
I don't think you have much to worry about.
I can't concentrate on what you're saying, that avatar of yours is distracting me with it's hypnotic rhythm.
Saw a blue post on the o-boards about the upcoming intent to buff combat's dps which was also reported on these boards somewhere. Not worrying or freaking out, just venting that I'm sick of combat tbh.
Saw a blue post on the o-boards about the upcoming intent to buff combat's dps which was also reported on these boards somewhere. Not worrying or freaking out, just venting that I'm sick of combat tbh.
Quote:
Saw a blue post on the o-boards about the upcoming intent to buff combat's dps which was also reported on these boards somewhere. Not worrying or freaking out, just venting that I'm sick of combat tbh.
Since right now Muti is miles away of combat, the two possible solutions are to nerf the hell out of Muti or buff Combat.
Or both.
I'm clueless at PvP, so apologies if this is a dumb question, but is a raid-focussed Muti build likely to be good for PvP too, or will a PvP-focussed build be very different? If the Muti raid spec is good for PvP, and as good or better than Combat for raid DPS, that would pretty much make Combat redundant for anything except levelling. Surely that's no more desirable than Combat being the only competitive raid spec?
The ideal situation would be for Combat and Mutilate rogues to bring different benefits to a raid, but if Tricks of the Trade is our only raid-utility skill, that's not going to be the case, is it? I guess if one spec has significantly better burst-DPS options that can get more from the 6 seconds of threat transfer, but with a slight loss of total personal DPS, that could work.
I'm just a bit tired of there being only one spec that you can take if you don't want to gimp your party's DPS :(
The ideal situation would be for Combat and Mutilate rogues to bring different benefits to a raid, but if Tricks of the Trade is our only raid-utility skill, that's not going to be the case, is it? I guess if one spec has significantly better burst-DPS options that can get more from the 6 seconds of threat transfer, but with a slight loss of total personal DPS, that could work.
I'm just a bit tired of there being only one spec that you can take if you don't want to gimp your party's DPS :(
RPZip wrote:
Quote:
Saw a blue post on the o-boards about the upcoming intent to buff combat's dps which was also reported on these boards somewhere. Not worrying or freaking out, just venting that I'm sick of combat tbh.
Since right now Muti is miles away of combat, the two possible solutions are to nerf the hell out of Muti or buff Combat.
Or both.
Blue has specifically stated they will be buffing combat (Koraa said it either yesterday or today) ... so one of 2 situations will now apply ... the combat buff will be big, or the combat buff will be mild coupled to a mild Mut nerf.
At the end of the day, they should both be viable.
Edited, Sep 26th 2008 12:46am by robertlofthouse
Master Poisoner is also a minor rDPS boost, but not nearly as good as similar abilities that other classes have imo. TotT is cool and all, but.... I just got Tracker's Blade!!! Arrgggh! ;)
As for PvP/PvE hybrid builds: Well, the farther you go along one of those roads (PvP or PvE) the wider the divide. Just running battlegrounds you can have the same build for both and have some success. But you wouldn't go into Brutatlus as ShS, or 2200 arena as combat with any expectation of success. That is certainly not looking like it'll be changed anytime soon.
Y'know, now that I'm thinking about it, we may need to review if combat actually is still the most efficient leveling spec. As bliz pushes us away from pure grinding for XP and more to quest completion of maximizing XP/hour; ShS and Muti could be more effective with loads of potential burst when called upon over the consistent dps and low-downtime of combat. At least while leveling... hmmm.... just musings right now while I'm at work. But something to consider.
Also: There are a few raid fights where pure burst might outweigh combats' sustained output (Bloodboil being fresh in my mind). I wonder how many fights will form up that don't repeat the same old basic tank-n-spank mechanic at 80 raiding levels... pffft, again I'm musing.
As for PvP/PvE hybrid builds: Well, the farther you go along one of those roads (PvP or PvE) the wider the divide. Just running battlegrounds you can have the same build for both and have some success. But you wouldn't go into Brutatlus as ShS, or 2200 arena as combat with any expectation of success. That is certainly not looking like it'll be changed anytime soon.
Y'know, now that I'm thinking about it, we may need to review if combat actually is still the most efficient leveling spec. As bliz pushes us away from pure grinding for XP and more to quest completion of maximizing XP/hour; ShS and Muti could be more effective with loads of potential burst when called upon over the consistent dps and low-downtime of combat. At least while leveling... hmmm.... just musings right now while I'm at work. But something to consider.
Also: There are a few raid fights where pure burst might outweigh combats' sustained output (Bloodboil being fresh in my mind). I wonder how many fights will form up that don't repeat the same old basic tank-n-spank mechanic at 80 raiding levels... pffft, again I'm musing.
God I could've known Theo would send me such a reply.
That's the problem I mentioned earlier in some other thread. For casual PvP, mutilate will probably > combat. But if you're intent on going seriously into PvP, you will simply háve to respec. There isn't one spec that's per definition the best for both raiding and PvP. The simple reason for that is that PvP builds will always include talents that are (nearly) useless in PvE... To name an obvious example, subtlety has little chance of ever becoming a good raiding build since it's 41-pointer is pretty much completely a PvP ability. For as far as I can remember right now there are only a few classes who can spec something and do well in both raids and PvP. Got a feral druid in mind here. Even then though, the spec could probably work a little better for the other activity with a few points swapped around.
Ofcourse you can make a compromising build that gets 'avarage' results on both raids and PvP, but that will only work up to a specific point. If you want to seriously get into something you'll end up having to seriously spec for it.
Quote:
I'm clueless at PvP, so apologies if this is a dumb question, but is a raid-focussed Muti build likely to be good for PvP too, or will a PvP-focussed build be very different?
That's the problem I mentioned earlier in some other thread. For casual PvP, mutilate will probably > combat. But if you're intent on going seriously into PvP, you will simply háve to respec. There isn't one spec that's per definition the best for both raiding and PvP. The simple reason for that is that PvP builds will always include talents that are (nearly) useless in PvE... To name an obvious example, subtlety has little chance of ever becoming a good raiding build since it's 41-pointer is pretty much completely a PvP ability. For as far as I can remember right now there are only a few classes who can spec something and do well in both raids and PvP. Got a feral druid in mind here. Even then though, the spec could probably work a little better for the other activity with a few points swapped around.
Ofcourse you can make a compromising build that gets 'avarage' results on both raids and PvP, but that will only work up to a specific point. If you want to seriously get into something you'll end up having to seriously spec for it.
Other than his knowledge base on this game, the other thing I respect about Theo is that he calls 'em like he sees 'em. He doesn't pull punches on his opinions. We don't have to like them or agree, but at least we know where he stands.
The spec decision pales in comparison to the class decision. I have my respectably old rogue toon and a brand new level 68 shaman. Which to develop first in the expansion?
Ughhhhh.
R4Lyfe I guess.
Ughhhhh.
R4Lyfe I guess.
Quote:
Other than his knowledge base on this game, the other thing I respect about Theo is that he calls 'em like he sees 'em. He doesn't pull punches on his opinions. We don't have to like them or agree, but at least we know where he stands.
That's just as much a good as a bad thing though... It would be easier for me if he didn't know **** about the game; now I actually have to respect the ******* =P
And Eon, I know that problem =(
I'm facing the same problem with my lock. It's a blast and easy to level, but I haven't read anything about locks lvling 70-80 either.
I thought combat/shiv builds were ahead of muti builds?
nvm was slightly behind muti.
http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t26242-rogue_pve_dps_wotlk_discussion/p97/#post905840
Edited, Sep 26th 2008 11:51am by spdr
nvm was slightly behind muti.
http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t26242-rogue_pve_dps_wotlk_discussion/p97/#post905840
Edited, Sep 26th 2008 11:51am by spdr
Based on that post I am gathering that the problem is not that mutilate is better than combat, but that combat is doing better using Shiv instead of Sinister Strike due to the amounts of damage it puts out when coupled with Instant Poison.
So the problem they are having is finding a way to buff SS over Shiv, but without destroying Mut's viability?
So the problem they are having is finding a way to buff SS over Shiv, but without destroying Mut's viability?
Wow, rated down for saying I respected Theo. Good job. Please see my avatar for my response.
Anyway, after talking a bit with my guild's melee lead and respecing after the new beta build last night I'm feeling less rant-y today. Sorry for my outburst. I'm still having a torrid love affair with Muti (even went 51/5/5) and prey that this love is long-term. At least after my divorce from SS is finalized. Here's to hoping the nerf-bat is done with assassination.
And thanks everyone for putting up with my rant.
Anyway, after talking a bit with my guild's melee lead and respecing after the new beta build last night I'm feeling less rant-y today. Sorry for my outburst. I'm still having a torrid love affair with Muti (even went 51/5/5) and prey that this love is long-term. At least after my divorce from SS is finalized. Here's to hoping the nerf-bat is done with assassination.
And thanks everyone for putting up with my rant.
Quote:
Wow, rated down for saying I respected Theo. Good job. Please see my avatar for my response.
The balls need to be more firmly cupped next time you give a reacharound.
Zip, please see my avatar for my response.
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