Hi there! I don't post on these shaman forums ever, but I do post on WoW's shaman forums. Here, I tend to stick to the warlock forums. However, there is a thread I started a few days ago that shamans here may be interested in looking at and/or discussing:
http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/class.html?wclass=9;mid=12218620534070198;num=24;page=1
Thoughts? Ideas? How much do you dislike Koraa?
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Who or what is Koraa? I don't visit the O-Boards...
I think you just linked to your own thread to get a +1, says the cynical ******* in me ;-)
I think you just linked to your own thread to get a +1, says the cynical ******* in me ;-)
Koraa is the Beta dev for shamans, warlocks and priests. And it's not for a +1 so much as there are several posts in that thread currently, and it would be difficult to try and repost everything from multiple users from there to here.
I forgot to mention that the shaman-related posts aren't until about halfway down the page. >.<
Edited, Sep 23rd 2008 8:36am by wingsofscion
I forgot to mention that the shaman-related posts aren't until about halfway down the page. >.<
Edited, Sep 23rd 2008 8:36am by wingsofscion
I have plenty of issues with Koraa. Complete lack of communication and obliviousness to class balance and how to achieve it. It'd be like me trying to balance warrior in my opinion. My highest one is level 14 and I know enough that I could BS my way to sounding smart, but I'd be wrong 95% of the time. The simple fact that he/she typed out the words "Elemental Shaman are putting out higher dps than any spec of lock or mage" made me lose all respect for him/her.
In my opinion, they're hope of making every class/spec viable is failing miserably because giving no niche to anyone is making it a pure dps race. You can't have 100% balanced dps. It's impossible to achieve. So without some form of niche, the lower dps classes (they will always exist) and lower hps and hpm classes (always exist too) are going to disappear because there will be little to no use for them. Unfortunately, Shaman is falling behind in every category and dev's don't even know it's happening and think we're still OP (even though EVERY single parse has shown that we are near the bottom).
I want to be invited to a raid because I benefit the raid as a whole, not because they need 2 shamans for heroism/bloodlust rotation.
In my opinion, they're hope of making every class/spec viable is failing miserably because giving no niche to anyone is making it a pure dps race. You can't have 100% balanced dps. It's impossible to achieve. So without some form of niche, the lower dps classes (they will always exist) and lower hps and hpm classes (always exist too) are going to disappear because there will be little to no use for them. Unfortunately, Shaman is falling behind in every category and dev's don't even know it's happening and think we're still OP (even though EVERY single parse has shown that we are near the bottom).
I want to be invited to a raid because I benefit the raid as a whole, not because they need 2 shamans for heroism/bloodlust rotation.
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I want to be invited to a raid because I benefit the raid as a whole, not because they need 2 shamans for heroism/bloodlust rotation.
Agreed. CoH priests and resto shamans are valued for raid healing, and Bloodlust/Heroism and totems are really just a perk for shamans at the current state of the game, earth shield notwithstanding. Enhancement shamans are almost a requirement right now, but many are saying that DKs are going to override them (not sure how true that is, because I don't actually play enhancement or elemental).
So really, it seems that resto shamans and CoH priests are losing the niche of raid healing in favor of druids, and main healing in favor of paladins. Granted, I welcome some of the changes that druids are getting, but for druids to be getting everything just about every other healing class has gotten and still have a lock on several of the other things no other healing class has is a bit annoying (read: more than one HoT, battle res).
As far as enhancement goes, I have read multiple posts about how the spec has/is falling way, way behind in terms of raid dps in relation to other classes (and warlock dps has been significantly nerfed since those first parses came out, as well). When we talk elemental, we also must realize that this is the same issue that occured with retribution paladins, affliction locks, shadow priests and again, elemental shamans at the start of BC; the damage was above that of all other classes, but because of the way they scale with gear, they quickly dropped to on par with other specs come T5 content, and sometimes so far below other classes/specs in T6 content, it wasn't worth bringing them except on progression.
The MAIN problem I see is that CoH now can hit 6 targets and it's a "static" heal in the respect that it does the same base healing to all 6. It also will go outside of group. Splash damage in raids is STATIC damage. It doesn't hit one person for 5k and another for 2k and another for 500. Chain heal will heal for 3.4k, 1.7k, then 850. So one of those 3 heals was "right" for the job. The other two were either over healing, under healing, or a mix of the two. This is making shaman VERY inefficient at raid healing for time spent doing it.
What's worse is that they think by adding "glyph of chain heal" to heal a 4th person they've helped us. W T F. Do they realize a 4th jump will heal LESS than a single tick of rejuvenation? /boggle. 3.4k > 1.7k > 850 > 425.... REALLY... 425. Thanks. Now I'm a healing machine. Hell the third jump of chain heal sucks a good bit. Priests have nothing to fear about losing their spots. The new druid aoe heal sucks now (Wild Regrowth). Paladins Beacon of Light still only heals 2 people at once. Maybe if you had a ton of paladins all just raid healing with beacons on people it might work overall. I still see CoH and Chain heal as being superior to what druids and paladins can bring to raid healing HOWEVER, CoH is going to destroy CH with the new mechanics. The huge drawback to CoH was that they had to be in the same group. Even with that stipulation, it had a larger range than CH AND could still easily out-heal me. Reliquary of Souls in BT is the perfect example. I simply can't out-heal a CoH priest there. It's impossible. The only reason I can keep up with some CoH priests on Felmyst is because they have to cast mass-dispel, otherwise they'd destroy me there too.
Shamans are good raid healers live BECAUSE of the restrictions on CoH. Removing those restrictions is going to make us antiquated and a sad substitute to a priest.
What's worse is that they think by adding "glyph of chain heal" to heal a 4th person they've helped us. W T F. Do they realize a 4th jump will heal LESS than a single tick of rejuvenation? /boggle. 3.4k > 1.7k > 850 > 425.... REALLY... 425. Thanks. Now I'm a healing machine. Hell the third jump of chain heal sucks a good bit. Priests have nothing to fear about losing their spots. The new druid aoe heal sucks now (Wild Regrowth). Paladins Beacon of Light still only heals 2 people at once. Maybe if you had a ton of paladins all just raid healing with beacons on people it might work overall. I still see CoH and Chain heal as being superior to what druids and paladins can bring to raid healing HOWEVER, CoH is going to destroy CH with the new mechanics. The huge drawback to CoH was that they had to be in the same group. Even with that stipulation, it had a larger range than CH AND could still easily out-heal me. Reliquary of Souls in BT is the perfect example. I simply can't out-heal a CoH priest there. It's impossible. The only reason I can keep up with some CoH priests on Felmyst is because they have to cast mass-dispel, otherwise they'd destroy me there too.
Shamans are good raid healers live BECAUSE of the restrictions on CoH. Removing those restrictions is going to make us antiquated and a sad substitute to a priest.
Well... that's not quite how chain heal works. Chain Heal is, on Live, the only "smart heal." Chances are in most cases (regardless of Live or Beta) that the first of Chain Heal is probably going to be overhealing. It's the other two that jump based on other players' health - hitting the lowest amount first.
On the other hand, CoH also has a cooldown in Beta - a cooldown long enough that Shamans can cast not one, but two or even three Chain Heals (depending on haste - 2 for sure, regardless of haste). As for a fourth person getting hit by chain heal, well, I wouldn't be so quick to knock that. I think it's a decent addition to top someone in the raid off. However, I would like to see Chain Heal's jump range extended rather than add another jump to it.
As for Beacon of Light, that's exactly how it's meant to work. And with a 40yd range on the extra heal, everyone except hunters will likely be in that range (they have a longer range, if specced for it, than healers do).
On the other hand, CoH also has a cooldown in Beta - a cooldown long enough that Shamans can cast not one, but two or even three Chain Heals (depending on haste - 2 for sure, regardless of haste). As for a fourth person getting hit by chain heal, well, I wouldn't be so quick to knock that. I think it's a decent addition to top someone in the raid off. However, I would like to see Chain Heal's jump range extended rather than add another jump to it.
As for Beacon of Light, that's exactly how it's meant to work. And with a 40yd range on the extra heal, everyone except hunters will likely be in that range (they have a longer range, if specced for it, than healers do).
Apparently the 4th jump from the glyph heals for the same as the third jump... so I guess it isn't AS bad. But the fact CoH's 6th is the same as the 1-5 heals is annoying. I'd rather have the 4th jump "increase" in effectiveness back to the healing of the 2nd jump since that's the "average" heal of the chain heal.
The issue isn't that CH isn't "smart" it is that it isn't the right heal for the job. Everyone is going to take the same amount of splash damage, but CH does 3 different size heals. So you choose to heal someone for the big heal, then there's the medium and then the small. Only one of those heals is in the right range of the amount needed while the other 2 are either too big or too small. It's just the nature of splash damage. It's why shamans are usually WAY high on overhealing on live until fights where there's so much raid damage that you can't possibly overheal.
Edited, Sep 26th 2008 2:09pm by Jiade
The issue isn't that CH isn't "smart" it is that it isn't the right heal for the job. Everyone is going to take the same amount of splash damage, but CH does 3 different size heals. So you choose to heal someone for the big heal, then there's the medium and then the small. Only one of those heals is in the right range of the amount needed while the other 2 are either too big or too small. It's just the nature of splash damage. It's why shamans are usually WAY high on overhealing on live until fights where there's so much raid damage that you can't possibly overheal.
Edited, Sep 26th 2008 2:09pm by Jiade
Splash damage, of course, can be situational depending on the fight, and the nature of the splash damage. Take, for example, Void Reaver now. The splash damage from the Arcane Orbs can be partially resisted, as all magical damage can. On the other hand, there are things like Magtheridon, where AoE damage from the cave-in is all the same. Typically, in the first scenario, CoH priests will probably actually have more overhealing than a shaman would, whereas the reverse might be true in the latter. But again, CoH is getting a cooldown (as far as I last can recall), but CH doesn't get a cooldown, so it may prove to be more effective overall when it comes to raid healing. Also the reason Druids tend to be very high on overhealing; since Shamans and CoH priests tend to take care of the "topping off" that HoTs would normally do, Druids become less effective overall in raid healing.
I do agree with you, though, the way CH works is a little odd, but like every multi-person heal, it has its perks and downsides. I actually would rather have Glyph of Chain Heal work more like Glyph of Chain Lightning, where the effectiveness loss is decreased, instead of adding a fourth target.
I do agree with you, though, the way CH works is a little odd, but like every multi-person heal, it has its perks and downsides. I actually would rather have Glyph of Chain Heal work more like Glyph of Chain Lightning, where the effectiveness loss is decreased, instead of adding a fourth target.
I'm thinking about END end-game. Felmyst aoe doing 1000 a tick to everyone. Kalecgos with increasing arcane damage to everyone. Brutallus with meteor slashes. Bloodboil 600 damage/second. Reliquary of Souls phase 3. Etc. Etc. The VAST majority of splash damage is a static amount. Naj'entus. etc. There is very very very rarely a time where all 3 jumps of chain heal are the exact right amount for healing all 3 people.
Right, I understand that. Which is why I went on to say I'd rather have it work like Glyph of Chain Lightning; the effectiveness reduction would be lessened with each jump. I'd rather have that than have an extra heal jump.
On the other hand, it seems they're trying to make it so we're not stacking certain healers (read: resto shamans, CoH priests). So, between the various heals, we may actually see some better synergy, and less overhealing from shamans (though I'm willing to bet that resto druids will be relegated to tank healing, since HoTs tend to create massive overhealing).
On the other hand, it seems they're trying to make it so we're not stacking certain healers (read: resto shamans, CoH priests). So, between the various heals, we may actually see some better synergy, and less overhealing from shamans (though I'm willing to bet that resto druids will be relegated to tank healing, since HoTs tend to create massive overhealing).
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