http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sZ0xiVczgtIIRhoE00x0c
what do you guys think?
Edited, Sep 20th 2008 12:29pm by Bigdaddyjug
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- Level 80 5-man tanking build
Level 80 5-man tanking buildFollow
It's OK, a bit too far into Ret IMO.
Imp HoJ is right out, Crusade and Conviction, while nice, are taking up points that would be better spent in:
Imp Righteous Fury, -6% damage, yes please
Imp Judgements, helps a lot on single target threat being able to judge that much faster
I like Stoicism and Kings, some don't. We're going to have more and more stats as we level, and 10% is huge when you have 1500 Stam.
Reckoning is a nice leveling and 5 man talent, but at raid level, you are just asking for more boss parries and that means you eat more damage.
I would also cap out Ardent Defender.
Tank Build
EDIT: Since you do want to focus on 5 mans, feel free to toss the 1 point into Reckoning. Heck, you can almost fill it up if you take out Stoicism
Edited, Sep 20th 2008 4:50pm by Maara
Imp HoJ is right out, Crusade and Conviction, while nice, are taking up points that would be better spent in:
Imp Righteous Fury, -6% damage, yes please
Imp Judgements, helps a lot on single target threat being able to judge that much faster
I like Stoicism and Kings, some don't. We're going to have more and more stats as we level, and 10% is huge when you have 1500 Stam.
Reckoning is a nice leveling and 5 man talent, but at raid level, you are just asking for more boss parries and that means you eat more damage.
I would also cap out Ardent Defender.
Tank Build
EDIT: Since you do want to focus on 5 mans, feel free to toss the 1 point into Reckoning. Heck, you can almost fill it up if you take out Stoicism
Edited, Sep 20th 2008 4:50pm by Maara
I think one thing to bear in mind, unlike BC, we are being itemized to share gear with Warriors, druids and DKs. Meaning alot of strength and stamina on gear. Because of talents like touched by the light our stamina will convert to spellpower, meaning a crapton of spellpower - ie threat, from the get go. I like heart of the crusader due to the 3% increase to ALL attacks, a HUGE boost for the party. Also, as such, with our 51 pt "swipe" talent, a "shield bash" forthcoming in trainable spells, shield of righteousness I think its called,we willhave no problem holding down threat and can actually but out some damage to help maintain strong threat, even on single targets like a warrior.
Maara made some good points I agree with. I might shoot for that extra strength to keep boosting your damage. With the spellpower, we can get a nice wep that does damage as opposed to a toothpick just to get some spellpower.
Some of those second/third tiers in protection still pretty much suck,but have to take something to get further down unfortunately.
Something like this perhaps
http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=smZatVA0zMteIohoEf
A few talents probably can be mixed around to suit your taste. I like the increased dodge and parry, less damage less your healers have to push to heal
Edited, Sep 20th 2008 7:49pm by spicyoctopusroll
Maara made some good points I agree with. I might shoot for that extra strength to keep boosting your damage. With the spellpower, we can get a nice wep that does damage as opposed to a toothpick just to get some spellpower.
Some of those second/third tiers in protection still pretty much suck,but have to take something to get further down unfortunately.
Something like this perhaps
http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=smZatVA0zMteIohoEf
A few talents probably can be mixed around to suit your taste. I like the increased dodge and parry, less damage less your healers have to push to heal
Edited, Sep 20th 2008 7:49pm by spicyoctopusroll
EDit - duplicate
Edited, Sep 20th 2008 7:45pm by spicyoctopusroll
Edited, Sep 20th 2008 7:45pm by spicyoctopusroll
I'm thinking this.
If you have another paladin you roll with then maybe drop the points in kings and use for more threat from Seals of the Pure.
If you have another paladin you roll with then maybe drop the points in kings and use for more threat from Seals of the Pure.
One thing is that Hammer of Justice will also have an interrupt effect, even if your target is immune to stuns, so Imp HoJ wouldn't be completely wasted, although those points would be better spent elsewhere imo.
EDIT: for link.
Edited, Sep 22nd 2008 1:11am by Maulgak
EDIT: for link.
Edited, Sep 22nd 2008 1:11am by Maulgak
7 posts
http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sVZ0xVAbuGteIRhoE is my prot build. although we are able to pull many groups and keep them on us at once with ease, when we raid, we cant be doing that on every pull. in my honest opinion, this is the best spec for raid tanking, mana conservation, and max threat.
now for the talent breakdown...i have divine guardian, because you wont always be the main tank. so if you start seeing the MT going down, or the group is taking a lot of AoE, pop divine shield and your healers will love you.
with the combination of toughness and imp. devo aura, your armor will be stacked, as well as the 6% increased healing you get. maxed ardent defender should go without question. kings is useless unless multiple paladins are present. you will always want blessing of sanctuary on over kings.
im not sure about judgement of the just, sounds like it wont work on boss's like vindication doesnt, so that sounds more like a PvP spot. you shouldnt need it for trash mobs, and if you do, you're undergeared for that instance...
remember. tanking is about avoidance, threat, and staying alive. utilizing the talents to excell in all 3 categories will make you a success. i know most of the people reading this is like "ya ya, we know how to tank". but when i see prot spec's with conviction in it...seems like some people are mistaken as to the tanks priorities
also, imp judgements isnt for threat building anymore. rememeber theres now 3 differant judgement spells, 2 of which are useful in raids, none of which are used for threat
Edited, Sep 23rd 2008 10:09pm by Seabane
now for the talent breakdown...i have divine guardian, because you wont always be the main tank. so if you start seeing the MT going down, or the group is taking a lot of AoE, pop divine shield and your healers will love you.
with the combination of toughness and imp. devo aura, your armor will be stacked, as well as the 6% increased healing you get. maxed ardent defender should go without question. kings is useless unless multiple paladins are present. you will always want blessing of sanctuary on over kings.
im not sure about judgement of the just, sounds like it wont work on boss's like vindication doesnt, so that sounds more like a PvP spot. you shouldnt need it for trash mobs, and if you do, you're undergeared for that instance...
remember. tanking is about avoidance, threat, and staying alive. utilizing the talents to excell in all 3 categories will make you a success. i know most of the people reading this is like "ya ya, we know how to tank". but when i see prot spec's with conviction in it...seems like some people are mistaken as to the tanks priorities
also, imp judgements isnt for threat building anymore. rememeber theres now 3 differant judgement spells, 2 of which are useful in raids, none of which are used for threat
Edited, Sep 23rd 2008 10:09pm by Seabane
Seabane wrote:
also, imp judgements isnt for threat building anymore. rememeber theres now 3 differant judgement spells, 2 of which are useful in raids, none of which are used for threa
Incorrect. All three Judgement spells will do a certain amount of Holy damage when cast. That damage is based on the Seal you have active. If you have Seal of Wisdom up and cast Judgement of Light, you'll do damage. If you have Seal of Righteousness up and then cast Judgement of Light you'll do a little more damage then the previous combo.
Non-damaging Seals when Judged will still do damage, but damaging Seals will provide more damage to the Judgement spells.
7 posts
ah see, theres always something to be learned. thanks for the responce :). made me a little worried because i always have a judgement of righteous ready, not only for added threat, but in case my shield misses. i hate it when 3 mages have pyro timed so they land when my shield lands, and my shield misses. silly mages. well ill have to read into the judgements a little more. thanks :D
np at all, I've seen this issue come up before, so don't feel too bad ;)
On wotlkwiki there is a detailed explanation of the new system, as well as a video showing off how it works.
On wotlkwiki there is a detailed explanation of the new system, as well as a video showing off how it works.
I do believe that these guys have some good points. Actually reading it again, they pretty much have it down.
My build goes like this. I believe without a threat reduction Blessing (BoS) that we will be using Kings more often (I do). Also, with the Holy damage output being so much more for us, it's easier to keep agro even if we do bless Kings. It does leave 7 pts left over. Different options to go... Conviction and Sanctified Seal for more damage (and threat) for the MT types, Seals of the Pure and Divine Int (another 6%) is something to think about too. Anyway, options. The only one I see as totally usless is Judgements of the Just. As a prot pally you really don't mind getting hit... Anyway, I just did a big thing about tanking in 3.0. See here.
GL
My build goes like this. I believe without a threat reduction Blessing (BoS) that we will be using Kings more often (I do). Also, with the Holy damage output being so much more for us, it's easier to keep agro even if we do bless Kings. It does leave 7 pts left over. Different options to go... Conviction and Sanctified Seal for more damage (and threat) for the MT types, Seals of the Pure and Divine Int (another 6%) is something to think about too. Anyway, options. The only one I see as totally usless is Judgements of the Just. As a prot pally you really don't mind getting hit... Anyway, I just did a big thing about tanking in 3.0. See here.
GL
I'm not totally sold on getting Kings anymore. As a single rank talent it was easy to pick up for any charecter going deep enough in the tree. Now it's a total waste unless you can put all 5 points into it, and I've been messing around with the calculator for a while now trying to find the best way to get those 5 points: I'm not seeing it. Granted I'm most interested in a raid build while others may be more focused on a 5 man build, but this is what I've come up with:
This.
I tried to take just the necessary talents and then spread the rest among "flavor" talents. With this build there were really only 3 points I'd consider floater talents that I wasn't really sure where to put: the 3 in Improved Hammer of Justice. At first I was putting these in Kings as a means to progress down the tree. I decided though that a 6% Kings wasn't worth it. There are some other options.
- Stoicism 3/3: seems more useful as a PvP talent, but the stun duration reduction could prove worthy for a tank as well.
- Guardian's Favor 2/2: could take this and be able to use your Hand of Protection more frequently. Again, more useful as a PvP talent, but with the removal of Blessing of Salvation this may or may not become a more used tactic: HoPing a DPS (C wut eye dud thar?) to save their *** from their own overeagerness :P This does leave one more point though to stuff somewhere.
- Reckoning 3/5: Can't max out Reckoning, but with the removal of crushing blows I don't think this talent will be frowned upon as much for a raid tank. There's still the issue of it proccing less and less, and only having 3 ranks doesn't help that at all.
Now a couple things on why I chose some of the talents I did:
- I think they are self-explanatory until tier 4. Improved Hammer of Justice: HoJ will have an interrupt component now, even on targets that are stun immune. One of our weaknesses has always been casters, Blizzard knows this, hence the change. Being able to put this ability on a 30 second CD I believe would be very valuable depending on the encounter.
Also with the removal of Sanctity Aura, increased viability of Ret as raid DPS, and Auras affecting the whole raid (within range), it looks like we are being pushed to use Devotion Aura more, leaving Ret Aura to the Ret Paladins. So, improving the Aura we'll be using just makes sense right? Particularly when it involves us being healed better :) Of course we'll probably still use Ret Aura in an AOE situation when no Ret is available, but Devo probably for bosses, larger trash mobs, etc..
- Redoubt simply for the block value to increase our damage reduction and threat from Shield of Righteousness. Still don't care about the block chance proc >.>
- Judgements of the Just: I know some people have said they'll skip it because "Paladins like getting hit more". Yes that's true, but this is only one mob, not many like Warrior's Thunderclap. On AOE this won't affect how much we are getting hit too much, but on bosses it can be a real boon to our survivability.
Comments, suggestions, counter arguments: all very much welcome :)
This.
I tried to take just the necessary talents and then spread the rest among "flavor" talents. With this build there were really only 3 points I'd consider floater talents that I wasn't really sure where to put: the 3 in Improved Hammer of Justice. At first I was putting these in Kings as a means to progress down the tree. I decided though that a 6% Kings wasn't worth it. There are some other options.
- Stoicism 3/3: seems more useful as a PvP talent, but the stun duration reduction could prove worthy for a tank as well.
- Guardian's Favor 2/2: could take this and be able to use your Hand of Protection more frequently. Again, more useful as a PvP talent, but with the removal of Blessing of Salvation this may or may not become a more used tactic: HoPing a DPS (C wut eye dud thar?) to save their *** from their own overeagerness :P This does leave one more point though to stuff somewhere.
- Reckoning 3/5: Can't max out Reckoning, but with the removal of crushing blows I don't think this talent will be frowned upon as much for a raid tank. There's still the issue of it proccing less and less, and only having 3 ranks doesn't help that at all.
Now a couple things on why I chose some of the talents I did:
- I think they are self-explanatory until tier 4. Improved Hammer of Justice: HoJ will have an interrupt component now, even on targets that are stun immune. One of our weaknesses has always been casters, Blizzard knows this, hence the change. Being able to put this ability on a 30 second CD I believe would be very valuable depending on the encounter.
Also with the removal of Sanctity Aura, increased viability of Ret as raid DPS, and Auras affecting the whole raid (within range), it looks like we are being pushed to use Devotion Aura more, leaving Ret Aura to the Ret Paladins. So, improving the Aura we'll be using just makes sense right? Particularly when it involves us being healed better :) Of course we'll probably still use Ret Aura in an AOE situation when no Ret is available, but Devo probably for bosses, larger trash mobs, etc..
- Redoubt simply for the block value to increase our damage reduction and threat from Shield of Righteousness. Still don't care about the block chance proc >.>
- Judgements of the Just: I know some people have said they'll skip it because "Paladins like getting hit more". Yes that's true, but this is only one mob, not many like Warrior's Thunderclap. On AOE this won't affect how much we are getting hit too much, but on bosses it can be a real boon to our survivability.
Comments, suggestions, counter arguments: all very much welcome :)
As a prot paladin in raids its pretty common to fall to the "off tank" role picking up trash and whatnot with another tank on the big guy. With this in mind it might be more beneficial to move 2 points from Imp Hammer of Justice to Divine Guardian, essentially letting you give the tank (and the entire raid in fact if AoE is coming) a 30% bubble. If you're your raid's normal main tank this may not be as useful, but as an off tank that has a chance to actually bubble this could make your bubble a valuable tool for increasing raid survivability.
Also, I've always been a fan of 8 second judgements, so I would probably move 2 points from Seals of the Pure to reduce that cooldown.
Also, I've always been a fan of 8 second judgements, so I would probably move 2 points from Seals of the Pure to reduce that cooldown.
spicyoctopusroll wrote:
I think one thing to bear in mind, unlike BC, we are being itemized to share gear with Warriors, druids and DKs. ur taste. I like the increased dodge and parry, less damage less your healers have to push to heal
This simply isn't true. We are sharing gear with warriors but DK gear is much different. DK gear doesnt have block value nor does it have block rating.
Druids wear druid dps gear now. They are actually complaining about the lack of strength on their bear gear.
Quote:
- Judgements of the Just: I know some people have said they'll skip it because "Paladins like getting hit more". Yes that's true, but this is only one mob, not many like Warrior's Thunderclap. On AOE this won't affect how much we are getting hit too much, but on bosses it can be a real boon to our survivability.
IT kills me to see how many pallies are skipping this talent. That talent offers the best mitigation of any 2 point talent in the whole damn tree. 20% reduction in attack speed without wasting a cooldown?
WArriors have to actually cast thunderclap. Ask any warrior how much easier their life is when someone else can apply demo shout and thunderclap on single targets.
Quote:
As a prot paladin in raids its pretty common to fall to the "off tank" role picking up trash and whatnot with another tank on the big guy. With this in mind it might be more beneficial to move 2 points from Imp Hammer of Justice to Divine Guardian, essentially letting you give the tank (and the entire raid in fact if AoE is coming) a 30% bubble.
Several blues have posted that this will not be the cast. If they only see warriors main tanking, pallies off tanking, they will chang things. Their goal with tanks is to make all 4 viable at every stage of raiding.
Edited, Sep 24th 2008 7:29am by ramera
ramera wrote:
Several blues have posted that this will not be the cast. If they only see warriors main tanking, pallies off tanking, they will chang things. Their goal with tanks is to make all 4 viable at every stage of raiding.
This. Currently we are (as Blizz has even said was their intention) pushed into an off tanking role. In Wrath they want all 4 classes that tank to be able to be MT and to tank AOE packs to some degree.
This brings up a question though: Divine Shield will still shed aggro right? It's just Divine Protection that is turning into a mini Shield Wall? If so, I don't see why any tank would take Divine Guardian. You won't be using Divine Shield while tanking (for any length of time to make use of that talent). Again this seems like a PvP centered talent.
Maulgak wrote:
This brings up a question though: Divine Shield will still shed aggro right? It's just Divine Protection that is turning into a mini Shield Wall? If so, I don't see why any tank would take Divine Guardian. You won't be using Divine Shield while tanking (for any length of time to make use of that talent). Again this seems like a PvP centered talent.
Yes, Divine shield will still drop agg while immune. Even as the MT, you are not always the primary person taking damage.
Divine guardian would nerf Shade of Aran's Pryoblast. Shatter... and how about Brutallus?
Blizzard loves making our job hard. We will have to swap agg with other tanks. You could pop divine shield while the other tank is tanking. That would reduce his damage as well as the raids damage.
The talent isn't about personal mitigation, its about raid mitigation.
I guess I'm not understanding how Divine Guardian works with Divine Shield then. It says damage is redirected to the Paladin, but since the Paladin is immune to damage, does that mean the damage is actually prevented entirely (the 30%)? Or since it's "redirected" to the Paladin will the Paladin take the sum of that damage and just be immune to anything the enemy does to the Paladin themself? If the Paladin takes their damage, with enough raid members nearby, that could 1 shot a tank Paladin.
Which makes me think more that the damage would be redirected and then prevented from the Paladin because of Divine Shield's effect. Still it's somewhat situational, but honestly so are all the other options you could put those talent points into.
Which makes me think more that the damage would be redirected and then prevented from the Paladin because of Divine Shield's effect. Still it's somewhat situational, but honestly so are all the other options you could put those talent points into.
Maulgak wrote:
I guess I'm not understanding how Divine Guardian works with Divine Shield then. It says damage is redirected to the Paladin, but since the Paladin is immune to damage, does that mean the damage is actually prevented entirely (the 30%)? Or since it's "redirected" to the Paladin will the Paladin take the sum of that damage and just be immune to anything the enemy does to the Paladin themself? If the Paladin takes their damage, with enough raid members nearby, that could 1 shot a tank Paladin.
Which makes me think more that the damage would be redirected and then prevented from the Paladin because of Divine Shield's effect. Still it's somewhat situational, but honestly so are all the other options you could put those talent points into.
Which makes me think more that the damage would be redirected and then prevented from the Paladin because of Divine Shield's effect. Still it's somewhat situational, but honestly so are all the other options you could put those talent points into.
My understanding is that the 30% raid damage redirected to the pally is nullified. The talent simply lowers the raid damage by 30%. At first the talent worked with both divine shield and divine protection. But since protection was got changed, it became suicide for any tank using it. Thus, they removed divine protection.
7 posts
can you imagine 2 prot pallies in like a 10 man? one pops divine protection, and the other with divine guardian pops divine shield. instant 80% dmg midigation to main tank for 12 seconds....thats godly for any main tank, especially with such a short cooldown. i can see that getting nerfed. now my question is...with ardent defender maxed, 30% dmg, divine protection, 80% dmg, and if a pally pops divine shield with divine guardian...110%...does that mean the tank becomes invulnerable with both shields popped when hes below 35%? thats kinda retarded if it is, because that would make yourself unkillable every 3 minutes.
It wouldn't be additive, it would be multiplicative.
So damage taken with Divine Protection + Divine Guardian + Argent Defender = 50% * 70% (remember, damage taken, not damage mitigated) * 70% = 1*.5*.7*.7 = 24.5% damage taken = 76.5% damage mitigation (before armor). With say a 60% dmg mitigation from armor, you would need to multiply that in so .5*.7*.7*.6 = 14.7% damage taken = 85.3% damage mitigation total.
So damage taken with Divine Protection + Divine Guardian + Argent Defender = 50% * 70% (remember, damage taken, not damage mitigated) * 70% = 1*.5*.7*.7 = 24.5% damage taken = 76.5% damage mitigation (before armor). With say a 60% dmg mitigation from armor, you would need to multiply that in so .5*.7*.7*.6 = 14.7% damage taken = 85.3% damage mitigation total.
Is a switch to Devo Aura coming full time? Have we hit the point where we don't need a Ret aura? I could see Devo in raid with another pally... but w/MT in 5 mans? IMO, yeah. I think with the changes in prot that we don't need ret to do the damage anymore, or as a agro tool. Can we? Yeah, but with so many other options why? With HoRight, Conceration, Holy Shield, and the mad extra holy damage added becuase of JotL... A ranged pull would be Avengers Shield and Con, spam; HoRight and HS. A run in pull would be... well run in, Con, spam; Holy Shield and HoRight.
Thoughts?
Maybe Maulgak and I can go toe to toe on this one as I'm such a beliver in Holy Shield (In the PTR my HS went from doing 128ish to over 300 w/no gear changes) and anything to add to block rating, is Rum in my eyes...and it adds to Shield of Righteousness! BUT, Maulgak, I love your raid build, and even as a MT in 5 mans it's hot. I really think that it's viable in both sits. I was thinking, drop Seal of the Pure and go with Imp Judge and Heart of the Crusader. But I'm really a 5 man Tank so I'd have to bow to someone who's been there. Is the faster Judges and added utiliy better then the extra 15%... either way, I think you should include it in the FAQ (maybe even with your notes).
I see 3.0 really giving us more options depending on what your overall goal is. MT? 5 Man? Raid utility? You can almost do all of it from prot depending on how you spend your pts. Hell I was playing with a Prot/Holy Shockadin`ish thing last night for solo PvE work! LOL!
Thoughts?
Maybe Maulgak and I can go toe to toe on this one
Quote:
- Redoubt simply for the block value to increase our damage reduction and threat from Shield of Righteousness. Still don't care about the block chance proc >.>
I see 3.0 really giving us more options depending on what your overall goal is. MT? 5 Man? Raid utility? You can almost do all of it from prot depending on how you spend your pts. Hell I was playing with a Prot/Holy Shockadin`ish thing last night for solo PvE work! LOL!
Ret Aura honestly wasn't doing that much threat. Sure it was nice to build up more then "HEY I SAW YOU AND I DON'T LIKE YOU" threat, but consecration far outpaced it. The new Devo Aura allows for 6% more incoming heals to you and everyone else in the raid 10 yards away from you. Which is way better.
Sim, the thing about Redoubt again was more for a raid Tankadin. As avoidance goes up, as you know, the effectiveness of Redoubt goes down. Currently (and for a while actually) I do not gain the full ~35.4% block rating when I pop Holy Shield. Roughly 3% falls off the attack table. When Redoubt procs, it entirely falls off.
I will side with you though thinking leveling and 5 man play. Avoidance won't be as high, so you still should see some benefit from both Redoubt and Holy Shield being up at the same time. Since all blocks are attributed to Holy Shield (you don't get 30% chance its a Holy Shield block, X% Redoubt block, etc..) that's a very valid point to make, I agree.
Either way though the other benefits of Redoubt are, imo, well worth the 3 points :D
Seals of the Pure vs. Improved Judgements and Heart of the Crusader:
I think you've got a point. For raids Heart of the Crusader will add a lot to the output of the raid. And Improved Judgements (current form) has always been a very nice addition to threat, particularly since Judgement is off the GCD. Now that Judgements are ON the GCD it may or may not be wise to take Improved Judgements, due to the new spells we'll be working into our rotation. I'd imagine it'll still be a boost to our threat though, but I have not seen any testing done on that matter.
The only thing I'm concerned about right now is how well our threat gain will scale compared to that of the DPS. Seals of the Pure I would think would add more for our personal benefit, at the expense of the raid.
One last thing to consider: it's very available for a Holy Paladin to grab this talent on their way to Conviction and they are being encouraged to use Judgement while healing, and Ret has had their raid viability increased and would be stupid to not pick this talent up. Now, I don't know if this talent from multiple Paladins stack or not, but this really isn't a "must have" for all tanks with how readily available it is for other specs to pick up.
I will side with you though thinking leveling and 5 man play. Avoidance won't be as high, so you still should see some benefit from both Redoubt and Holy Shield being up at the same time. Since all blocks are attributed to Holy Shield (you don't get 30% chance its a Holy Shield block, X% Redoubt block, etc..) that's a very valid point to make, I agree.
Either way though the other benefits of Redoubt are, imo, well worth the 3 points :D
Seals of the Pure vs. Improved Judgements and Heart of the Crusader:
I think you've got a point. For raids Heart of the Crusader will add a lot to the output of the raid. And Improved Judgements (current form) has always been a very nice addition to threat, particularly since Judgement is off the GCD. Now that Judgements are ON the GCD it may or may not be wise to take Improved Judgements, due to the new spells we'll be working into our rotation. I'd imagine it'll still be a boost to our threat though, but I have not seen any testing done on that matter.
The only thing I'm concerned about right now is how well our threat gain will scale compared to that of the DPS. Seals of the Pure I would think would add more for our personal benefit, at the expense of the raid.
One last thing to consider: it's very available for a Holy Paladin to grab this talent on their way to Conviction and they are being encouraged to use Judgement while healing, and Ret has had their raid viability increased and would be stupid to not pick this talent up. Now, I don't know if this talent from multiple Paladins stack or not, but this really isn't a "must have" for all tanks with how readily available it is for other specs to pick up.
Actually I spaced this , totally my bad. Makes sence though.
So another ? (yeah, I'm full of them :-) As Blizz has dropped Crushing Blow (so I've heard), do we still need as much avoidance? I understand that it's a great tool in lowering the damage we take, but with added Stam (for life and holy damage) that we are searching for, and the added damage to our spells overall... (and Blessing of Sanctuary... my fav atm) we could let our avoidance drop a bit (not sure what would be a good # anymore) so that we could make HS and BoS more effective. If my rum soaked brain has it right we got 490 def to avoid Crits.
Something I did note, I have same gear in PTR as in live play and they have changed something (either +from stat or gear +'s) but my def dropped from 49x to 47x. Just a brain fart there...
And once more, Maulgak, CapJack, you guys have been great. Thanks for the discussions and all the knowlage!!
Quote:
As avoidance goes up, as you know, the effectiveness of Redoubt goes down. Currently (and for a while actually) I do not gain the full ~35.4% block rating when I pop Holy Shield. Roughly 3% falls off the attack table. When Redoubt procs, it entirely falls off.
So another ? (yeah, I'm full of them :-) As Blizz has dropped Crushing Blow (so I've heard), do we still need as much avoidance? I understand that it's a great tool in lowering the damage we take, but with added Stam (for life and holy damage) that we are searching for, and the added damage to our spells overall... (and Blessing of Sanctuary... my fav atm) we could let our avoidance drop a bit (not sure what would be a good # anymore) so that we could make HS and BoS more effective. If my rum soaked brain has it right we got 490 def to avoid Crits.
Something I did note, I have same gear in PTR as in live play and they have changed something (either +from stat or gear +'s) but my def dropped from 49x to 47x. Just a brain fart there...
And once more, Maulgak, CapJack, you guys have been great. Thanks for the discussions and all the knowlage!!
This discussion is pretty much complete without me, but I'd like to echo the sentiment that the oft-skipped talents in the Prot tree really should be taken. Divine Guardian and Judgements of the Just are, in my mind, essential for making a Paladin tank more attractive to the raid, as is Improved Devotion Aura.
6% healing on a melee group is HUGE, ask a resto Shaman, it will significantly skew DPS-flavoured encounters in your favour.
Divine Guardian is wonderful for snap-casting DS when some huge AoE nuke is coming, and no other class in the game can do it. There are tons of encounters where heavy AoE is both predictable and unavoidable, and a Protadin would completely excel in this field. Remember you can always cancel the buff.
And seriously, anyone not taking JoJ is just dumb. A huge melee debuff that is innate to your tanking process. You may be assured that all future encounters will be designed with an attack speed reduction factored in, not having it at endgame will probably kill you unless you have a nuclear-powered healing team.
6% healing on a melee group is HUGE, ask a resto Shaman, it will significantly skew DPS-flavoured encounters in your favour.
Divine Guardian is wonderful for snap-casting DS when some huge AoE nuke is coming, and no other class in the game can do it. There are tons of encounters where heavy AoE is both predictable and unavoidable, and a Protadin would completely excel in this field. Remember you can always cancel the buff.
And seriously, anyone not taking JoJ is just dumb. A huge melee debuff that is innate to your tanking process. You may be assured that all future encounters will be designed with an attack speed reduction factored in, not having it at endgame will probably kill you unless you have a nuclear-powered healing team.
Sinstralis wrote:
6% healing on a melee group is HUGE, ask a resto Shaman, it will significantly skew DPS-flavoured encounters in your favour.
Not just the melee group, but anyone within 30 yards of said Paladin (40 if that Paladin has the increased Aura range from Holy). Remember Auras, Totems, pretty much everything that used to affect a group (as far as I am aware) will now affect all raid members within range. This also makes stacking a melee group, a caster group, etc.. seem like a moot point. Unless there are still some "group only" buffs I'm not aware of.
On the defense thing: some gear is having their defense rating nerfed. Also the change to Anticipation from 20 Defense Skill to 5% Dodge. I will become crittable once the patch goes live, and that's WITHOUT gemming for pure stamina ...
And I think avoidance is still going to be just as important. There won't be some "magic number" to shoot for, but I don't see it losing any of its importance.
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