I'm torn. I question whether a 0/53/18(Deep Fire with Icy Veins) or a 14/57/0(Deep Fire with Spell Impact) will be the better build.
On the one hand, you have:
3% hit
Icy Veins
13% reduced mana cost
A snare on Blizzard
On the other you have:
4% more crit with Pyroblast(nice synergy with Hot Streak)
10% of all spells are free
6% greater damage on both Scorch and Fireball
Firestarter
Focus Magic
So I'm left wondering if 3% hit and Icy Veins truly will outweigh 4% pyro crit and 6% greater Scorch/Fireball damage. Or if perhaps it'll be a matter of scaling. Will the Elementalist build be the better choice early on with the Arcane/Fire build being better later?
I can't wait to see some numbers on this somewhere. I'll keep you all informed if I find any.
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Out of curiosity, why did you spend your second rank talents on Frostbite and not permafrost? If all you are looking for in blizzard is a snare, then the permafrost would make that snare stronger and longer, wouldn't it? Also the blizzard may root some of the aoe with frostbite, making continual aoe a possible problem.
Sorry for the newbish question, just wondering if you could enlighten me on that.
Sorry for the newbish question, just wondering if you could enlighten me on that.
the idea that frostbite is not good for use with blizzard is a myth long perpetuated by players who need more practice with their AOEs. embrace the frostbite. it is your friend.
sorry, pold, and i'm not saying this just cause i like frost. i really think icy veins is the deciding factor. i might like to wonder if cold snap is worth the few more points just to get another icey veins out especially with molten fury.
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/mage/talents2.html?tal=00000000000000000000000000000003552020023033300531200003500235031010032100000000000000
something like that? frostfire bolt for the win. as i understand the way FFB works right now, ice shards stacks with ignite? definitely a build you'll have to use invisibility with. it's not a flexible build, but i have this feeling it'll get some interesting output on boss fights... i'm convinced this build will give mages the screenshots that get FFB nerfed.
sorry, pold, and i'm not saying this just cause i like frost. i really think icy veins is the deciding factor. i might like to wonder if cold snap is worth the few more points just to get another icey veins out especially with molten fury.
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/mage/talents2.html?tal=00000000000000000000000000000003552020023033300531200003500235031010032100000000000000
something like that? frostfire bolt for the win. as i understand the way FFB works right now, ice shards stacks with ignite? definitely a build you'll have to use invisibility with. it's not a flexible build, but i have this feeling it'll get some interesting output on boss fights... i'm convinced this build will give mages the screenshots that get FFB nerfed.
mundaneboy wrote:
Out of curiosity, why did you spend your second rank talents on Frostbite and not permafrost? If all you are looking for in blizzard is a snare, then the permafrost would make that snare stronger and longer, wouldn't it? Also the blizzard may root some of the aoe with frostbite, making continual aoe a possible problem.
Sorry for the newbish question, just wondering if you could enlighten me on that.
Sorry for the newbish question, just wondering if you could enlighten me on that.
Frostbite is for when I'm soloing. I want the root for when I hit things with my FFB. Also, it'll help your frost mages by giving them more frozen targets to shatter with BLIZZARD THAT CAN CRIT NOW!
LaFey wrote:
something like that? frostfire bolt for the win. as i understand the way FFB works right now, ice shards stacks with ignite? definitely a build you'll have to use invisibility with. it's not a flexible build, but i have this feeling it'll get some interesting output on boss fights... i'm convinced this build will give mages the screenshots that get FFB nerfed.
Problem is that FFB is poor at scaling and has too low of a base damage to be a truly devastating spell for raids. Fireball scales much better as fire, and Frostbolt tends towards better scaling as frost. I'm hoping they'll adjust it(best thing, IMO, would be to make it a 3.5s cast with Imp Fireball reducing its cast time to 3.0, thus helping the scaling a fair bit).
Either way, I'll probably hit instances and early raids as FF spec just for fun.
scaling and all that jazz, yeah. you won't have max gear right off the bat, you know. and as for scaling -- take crit over dmg and allow ignite + shards + burnout to do their work. don't forget chaotic skyfire diamond!
what we actually need now is some real numbers. we want to know at what point of +dmg plain ole fireball will outdamage any FFB. if that number isn't realistically reachable, then FFB would still be preferred even if fireball did scale better. i'm unsure whether talents like fingers of frost will allow frostbolt to compete for raid boss meters.
i think the serious differences between FFB and fireball is simply the empowered and improved fireball talents and natural coefficients. is it possible to run numbers and find out exactly how those compare to the added crit damage of ice shards? my original post did not include piercing ice, but possibly that's a better choice for those points than shatter, especially for raid encounters.
i'm bitter that they aren't giving us a universally useful spell instead. adding yet another bolt spell and forcing mages to bend over backward to make it useful just seems... tacky.
what we actually need now is some real numbers. we want to know at what point of +dmg plain ole fireball will outdamage any FFB. if that number isn't realistically reachable, then FFB would still be preferred even if fireball did scale better. i'm unsure whether talents like fingers of frost will allow frostbolt to compete for raid boss meters.
i think the serious differences between FFB and fireball is simply the empowered and improved fireball talents and natural coefficients. is it possible to run numbers and find out exactly how those compare to the added crit damage of ice shards? my original post did not include piercing ice, but possibly that's a better choice for those points than shatter, especially for raid encounters.
i'm bitter that they aren't giving us a universally useful spell instead. adding yet another bolt spell and forcing mages to bend over backward to make it useful just seems... tacky.
LaFey wrote:
scaling and all that jazz, yeah. you won't have max gear right off the bat, you know. and as for scaling -- take crit over dmg and allow ignite + shards + burnout to do their work. don't forget chaotic skyfire diamond!
what we actually need now is some real numbers. we want to know at what point of +dmg plain ole fireball will outdamage any FFB. if that number isn't realistically reachable, then FFB would still be preferred even if fireball did scale better. i'm unsure whether talents like fingers of frost will allow frostbolt to compete for raid boss meters.
what we actually need now is some real numbers. we want to know at what point of +dmg plain ole fireball will outdamage any FFB. if that number isn't realistically reachable, then FFB would still be preferred even if fireball did scale better. i'm unsure whether talents like fingers of frost will allow frostbolt to compete for raid boss meters.
The Elitist Jerks folks seem convinced that you won't use it at any stage of the raiding game based on initial damage and scaling considering level 80 blues/early epics. At least not as a min/max raider. But it could still see a buff to its scaling or damage(I think it was built around the assumption of the pre-fingers of frost "target is frozen for everyone" talent synergizing with shatter and thus is no longer where it was intended to be).
LaFey wrote:
scaling and all that jazz, yeah. you won't have max gear right off the bat, you know. and as for scaling -- take crit over dmg and allow ignite + shards + burnout to do their work. don't forget chaotic skyfire diamond!
what we actually need now is some real numbers. we want to know at what point of +dmg plain ole fireball will outdamage any FFB. if that number isn't realistically reachable, then FFB would still be preferred even if fireball did scale better. i'm unsure whether talents like fingers of frost will allow frostbolt to compete for raid boss meters.
i think the serious differences between FFB and fireball is simply the empowered and improved fireball talents and natural coefficients. is it possible to run numbers and find out exactly how those compare to the added crit damage of ice shards? my original post did not include piercing ice, but possibly that's a better choice for those points than shatter, especially for raid encounters.
i'm bitter that they aren't giving us a universally useful spell instead. adding yet another bolt spell and forcing mages to bend over backward to make it useful just seems... tacky.
what we actually need now is some real numbers. we want to know at what point of +dmg plain ole fireball will outdamage any FFB. if that number isn't realistically reachable, then FFB would still be preferred even if fireball did scale better. i'm unsure whether talents like fingers of frost will allow frostbolt to compete for raid boss meters.
i think the serious differences between FFB and fireball is simply the empowered and improved fireball talents and natural coefficients. is it possible to run numbers and find out exactly how those compare to the added crit damage of ice shards? my original post did not include piercing ice, but possibly that's a better choice for those points than shatter, especially for raid encounters.
i'm bitter that they aren't giving us a universally useful spell instead. adding yet another bolt spell and forcing mages to bend over backward to make it useful just seems... tacky.
As Pold has stated, the people at EJ have gone through and run some numbers of some basic factors. they have come out with Arcane > Fire > Frost > FFB spec (I do believe), although mana regeneration/etc could provide conflict so that remains to be seen. The problem with FFB is that it just does not scale as well, even if it is double-dipping in talents, the deep-fire talents scale better with fireball and the deep frost better with frostbolt.
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