The consensus on the US forums...Follow

Blarghy, that bites.

My three level 70's are a shammy, priest and a lock I've recently taken to level 70 in hopes of making him my main for WOTLK.

Hopefully they'll keep tweaking those 3 classes upwards.

Generally, Jenova, I'd agree with that statement.

Then we have this thread, posted on the US lock forums:

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=10043318565&sid=1

And then this thread, posted on the EU shaman forums:

http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html;jsessionid=F41AA1CE5D247F2D7AE38A46F768C0D1.app06_07?topicId=5901771580&sid=1

Suffice to say, neither of the two classes are at all (in general) happy with the changes to either class.

PvP lock Maso has considered dropping WoW at this point. Socio says PvP locks are having troubles staying alive versus even one person.

Fallenman (PvE) and Bibdy (also PvE) are rocking hard on Malakai's (sp?) post on the Beta forums in terms of Destro raiding damage.

I think Clearly and Tyrashi both haven't gotten Beta keys at this point, but also are prominent on the US forums in terms of their opinions for raiding.

Take a look at this thread, posted by Octo on the Beta forum:

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=9956359190&pageNo=1&sid=2000#2

Also note the complete lack of Blue posts on the lock Beta forums. Koraa's post in the above thread was the last Blue post on the forum (unless GC has posted again in the Meta discussion). Even if you look at the Hunter forums, it's got SEVERAL blue posts, and Ghostcrawler is communicating with the customers.

Priests and Shamans have one blue post apiece on their front page on Beta forums.

Edited, Sep 19th 2008 7:15pm by wingsofscion

Normally, I'm inclined to ignore them as well. However, one can't ignore that the class design of warlocks, priests and shamans is very quickly turning out to be not up to par with the other six classes that Ghostcrawler is working with - and that is a problem.

From what I understand, Affliction is doing terribly in PvP due to lack of burst (especially given the Haunt and Amp Curse nerfs), and Demo and Destro are doing okay, but not really at the same level as other classes.

That's just it, though; Affliction isn't outliving anything. There's no outlast scenarios anymore, just see how quickly you can kill stuff dead. That is a huge problem for affliction locks, to not be able to put out damage on par with other classes (not just specs of warlock, but other classes) and live long enough for it to do any significant amount of damage (read: getting dispelled, opponents eating though it, CloS, etc.).

I'm sorry Jenova but I really hate this line of reasoning. It has come up time and time again when a class starts to fall behind, I've seen it with Shamans, Hunters and now Locks. Just because something is possible doesnt make it balanced. In reality the "If played correctly" is simply an exceedingly polite way to say "L2P", which is only an effective argument against geriatrics or 12 year olds.

I'll say this for myself, I'm a pretty damn good PvPer. Not massively experienced (I have a whole life to lead, I cant spend it in Arena just so people will listen to me on the internet) but I have been able to maintain a good ratio against most opponents. Now, I have a Ret Paladin, an Enhance Shaman, and a Warlock up on the PTR and I can say the lock is grossly broken in terms of class mechanics. The expansion has completely changed the way I play my Paladin and my Shaman, and although the Shaman is cack for PvP I can at least have some serious fun swinging hammers and shocking and striking. The Retadin is currently a tad overtuned I admit, but the overall mechanic is fluid and fun.

The Warlock 'mechanic' is dull as sh*t.

DoT. Run away. Slowly watch lifebar tick down. Worry about dispels and DoT timers. DoT again.

Affliction is not an 'outlasting' spec Jenova because it has no effective mechanisms that allow it to do that. Haunt was a step in the right direction but it requires you to stop moving to cast the *****; that means against other casters you get silenced (or worse, locked) and against melee they're back in your face. It doesnt heal enough anymore to make it worth the tactical disadvantage of casting it. In essence, it always costs you more than you get back in PvP, unless you're just standing at the back of AB hoping nobody sees you, which has always been a great lock strategy but not a fun game to play. With the current thinking behind Warlocks, apparently we could just keep adding cast-time DoTs every expansion til I'm speccing "Syphillitic Affliction" at 71pts, and locks will be 'imba'. For PvE maybe, but in PvP the whole concept sucks nut.

Now if Haunt, while active, caused all DoTs to heal the Warlock for a reasonable dmg % AND returned health from its' own damage at the end, I'd say it was worth it. It would synergise properly in a PvP situation with your existing DoTs, the same way Death Knight ones do, and the same way Druid HoTs now do with Flourish. Bear in mind I'm just talking about the Affliction tree, I havent even approached the hilarity of the Destro tree which is basically a game of "36 Yards to Go!" vs melee. If you can frontload enough damage you win, if not you're going to get seriously reamed. That is NOT FUN. It works in a mystical theorycraft chocolateland, but knowing that if <xxx> doesnt crit I might as well go home is demoralising. The new Chaos Bolt is an improvement now it actually does damage worth having, but again it's a silly cast time and totally boring in conceptual terms.

Let's forget about numbers and review some key 'fun-ness' changes shall we?
Warriors: Leap through the air like Batman, heal self, can DW Frostmourne and Ashbringer just for lulz
Paladins: Frontload more burst than Shamans ever could, heal self while kicking ***, never run out of mana, instant ranged Execute
Druids: Fear immunity in Feral, yet another instant HoT (I admit Druids need work)
Hunters: Can tame CORE HOUNDS and TYRANNOSAURS (need survivability though)
Mages: Where to start... can blow up AV packs and send them flying, solid ranged Stun, more survivability, AoE now obscenely strong
Rogues: Love it or hate it, Shadow Dance is FUN

Now we get to the classes that are in dire need:
Shamans: Elemental aside (20yd knockback coming back to Thunderstrike), bugger all. Literally. Fun to play in PvE but PvP corpses.
Priests: Seriously, exactly the same mechanics. Dispersion is fun I guess but banishing yourself while your Arena buddies die sucks.
Warlocks: Pet scaling fixed but mechanics the same and talent requirements HUGE, DoT mechanics same, brief glimpse of light with Pandemic (crits at last...), Demon Form fun but never available, Chaos Bolt extremely situational and opens you to spell-locks, Destro plays essentially identically. Oh but Nether Protection and Soul Link, our TWO defensive talents, nerfed into the deep earth. Nice.

My point, dear friends, is that the top classes play differently than before, more fluidly and organically, they really do feel more like you are in control of something that has power to cause other people misery if you can just restrain that power. When I play my Warlock I feel like a sack full of weaknesses waiting to be exploited, that I have to work hard to compensate for, when I am victorious it never feels like my victory, just that my opponent didnt splatter me quite right so now I get honour. Whoop.

Apart from those glorious Destro crit-trains which have always been around, I see no fun in the mechanics. It's like being Pinnochio surrounded by Real Boys, you look similar and perform similar tasks but are fundamentally jealous of those around you. Here's the thing though, I am not a Warlock, I'm a human being, so all I do is switch class and adopt a new toon with a cleverer name.

Like everyone else.

EDIT: PS don't forget the difference between the guys pulling the strings. Ghost is a friendly, intelligent-sounding and quite jocular personality with what appears to be genuine enthusiasm for his/her work. Koraa comes across as annoyed, belligerent, diminutive of his customer base and in many cases basically inattentive and slow. Look at the class list above, it's NOT coincidence.

Edited, Sep 21st 2008 4:47am by Sinstralis

afliction has loads of mechanics that allow it to outlast. it can kite, instant aoe CC, dot for a large amount, drain for an even more rediculous amount, debuff each class with the worst possible debuff for them (attack speed/casting speed/movement speed reductions). the fact that with glyphs, you'll have an 8% chance for nightfall each tick of corruption is imba, mixed in with a 10% chance for 20% haste at the same time can lead to some nice fast CC/damage/drains. the abilities and talents are all built to beable to 'counter' everything. now yeah, we may have not gotten as many imba buffs as alot of the other classes, but from what I've looked at, I still see it to be a powerful spec. maybe boring in your eyes "running dotting, watching them die", but the fact is, that's the tactic. I think spamming SB is boring as hell, sadly it's the current pve tactic. you use what you're given and you make it work as best as possible

Ok holy panic stations batman. I only just fully checked the warlock talents and read everyone...even the ones which aren't new or i thought weren't unchanged.

1) Making corruption have a cast time even with talents sucks a lot and is imo the biggest nerf.
2) Amplify curse, wtf is the point in this talent other than to get to CoEx
3) Shadow Emrace is now pretty cool but should be triggered by Drain Life ticks also
4) Nether Protection nerf is a big one also as this could turn the game against a SP or fire mage or fellow lock

Possible Changes (some will be overpowered as i am a lock and biased)

1) Haunt cast tiem increase to 2.5s but for every affliction effect on the target the cast time is reduced by .5s (potential instant cast)
2) Amplify curses and CoEx swap places and Amplify curse no allows the warlock to have 2 curses on the same target (possible OP)
3) Pandemic triggered by siphon life as well (therefore able to heal yourself for 100% more if it procs from SL)
4) Grim Reach changed to 15% / 30% distance changes since with multiple casts we need to be far away
5) Soul leech changed to say "Gives your destruction spells....
6) Reduce CD of Chaos Bolt to 10 seconds (possibly included in Bane talent)
7) Master Conjuror increased to 25% / 50% increase and reduce CD on spellstone use
8) Demonic Pact increases raid / party members haste rating by 5% stacks up to 2x
9) Demonic Empowerment, change CD to 30s and change felhunters ability to an AoE shriek that silences all nearby enemies for 2s at the cost of 10% of its HP. Change the felguards ability to a whirwind with each successive hit causing 50% more damage lasts for 3 seconds (1 hit per second)

Possible changes not sure what you will think but as it stands yes we seem screwed

Double Post, sorry.

Edited, Sep 21st 2008 11:21pm by Sinstralis

Ok Jenova, fair enough. I really do hope you are proven right. As a guy in T6 gear on the PTR right now, I am not confident.

If the talents remain 'as-is' then Affliction locks will succeed most convincingly in BGs, where multi-dotting for Nightfall procs is possible. However, with an 8% chance to proc you will almost certainly see a hidden cooldown creeping in there, so it's not going to be all candy and fizzy drinks. As I have said, PvE is currently solid, they basically just increased the numbers for us, that's fine.

Most people's concern stems from PvP, and in that arena, RIGHT NOW on the PTR, it isnt looking so hot because of the vastly enhanced burst most other classes got. The upgrade to Shadow's Embrace to reduce HoT efficiency was a giant leap in the right direction but 15% still isnt that great. Again, I am with you that Affliction can do reasonable damage, but as I've said it simply lacks the survivability even with the now-mandatory Soul Link.

Now you can listen to me or ignore me on that point, my advice is to gin up and get on the PTR yourself. If there were even some minor defensive utility added to Afflic I'd be right with you, just something other than hoping their bar goes down faster than yours. I'd take almost anything from increased self-healing (cast-time independent, thank you), short-term self-banish (while the DoTs tick), increased runspeed if more DoTs are going, anything.

But, listen to me please, if the talents go live as they are you will need to significantly outgear or outplay your opponents to achieve any kind of victory, even as Afflic.

I was under the impression each tick was counted as a separate 8% chance - like flipping a coin is always 50%, regardless of how many times you've flipped it.

if the chances are instead additive (IE: based on whether or not it procced before), then I'll agree it's a bit much. If it's a solid 8% per tick, with no "memory", I can't see that as imbalanced. True, you'd have 6 separate rolls for that 8% chance, but each roll is still 8%? Right?

Unfortunately, from what I understand, the level 80 blues (which is all that are available) don't do much to increase survivability. Destruction still has serious problems in arena because of the long cast times. The only instants Destruction has are Shadowburn, Conflag and Shadowfury - only one of which is available to all specs.

Read this thread:

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=10043164719&sid=2000

I'd growl at you along the lines of "situational" and "in many situations" are actually antithetical statements but I've had my coffee today so you're safe :)

I would also prefer Spirit Link as it was intended simply because it's a new mechanic instead of a hashed-up old one, but there are serious technical restrictions on that spell. Basically the WoW engine just can't handle it. The devs actually said it can't be done, particularly there is a problem refreshing it on a target that already has one, and Koraa's dream of having it break on CC to nerf its PvP utility (into nothing basically, nice one Koraa you maleficent little C*NT...) was technologically impossible.

As an amateur coder I can imagine the extra server overhead it takes to make such an ability work, and it's not pretty. Considering all the extra conditionals like health%, targetting and so forth, it absorbed so much dev time that they just abandoned it. Hence, Koraa has no more devtime left for his class, so he tacked on a silly Regrowth ability which, since it is trainable like a skill and not a talent, is clearly a copy-past from the Druid database with the coefficients tweaked. Lazy, stupid.

Basically I'd prefer the stable, reliable Regrowth knockoff to the inevitably broken, frustrating Spirit Link malarkey, but that's no excuse for Koraa being a douche.


I guarantee you that a statistically improbable proportion of Death Knights will be broken-hearted Enhance Shaman rerolls. Skipping 55 levels and actually having fun with a melee class is better than sitting on your Shaman waiting, as John Mayer puts it, on the world to change.

EDIT: To be honest this probably belongs on the Shaman forums.

Edited, Sep 23rd 2008 8:29am by Sinstralis

I'm sorry if I wasnt clear; his attempted nerf was to cause Spirit Link to break ON CC; ie, you cast Spirit Link when you see the Rogue go stealth and then as soon as he stuns you you lose your 51pter. That was his dream, and it's quite clear why if you stop thinking of Koraa as a balanced individual and imagine yourself as someone who really, really loves his Druid. Every change he makes I can see so clearly from a Druid's perspective; Improved Fear nerf (Druids can break snares but not Fear... voila) Cripple gone (Druids cant break that one), any attempt to make Resto Shaman PvP viable is nerfed away immediately (no other PvP healarz! I sez!).

I really try to see people's point of view when they tell me these people are professionals, but looking at he raw results it just looks like the work of a man who doesnt really care much about Shamans or Locks and almost resents having to play around with them to keep the whiners happy. Only recently has he begun to communicate about changes in a civil manner, probably because of Ghost becoming so popular, and even then only to defend his balls-up of Priests.

Alas, what can you do.

Oh wait, reroll. Yeah.