dexter season 1 maybe... thats about it
and goddamn this isnt the "Hunger for TV?" thread... althought it could be... hmmmm
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Hunger for Blood?Follow
I missed this monday's entourage! When i click on that link it brings me to a stupid web site that says "web hosting, domain name registration" It pretty much say it cant find it! Post another link so i can watch the episode! lol
O edit time.
Devilsslave > Dexter.
OOooOOooOOoOOOooo lol
Edited, Sep 18th 2008 1:14pm by Devilsslave
O edit time.
Devilsslave > Dexter.
OOooOOooOOoOOOooo lol
Edited, Sep 18th 2008 1:14pm by Devilsslave
mongoosexcore wrote:
dexter season 1 maybe... thats about it
I thought Season 2 was well played. Looking forward to next weeks premier. Hell, I ordered Showtime just to watch it...and Penn & Teller.
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Anyway, HFB is useable in stealth. No, it's not worth the energy cost. It wasn't worth it even when it was 5% per application. It's definitely not worth it at 3%.
Not true. It wasn't worth it when it was 5% per application for 15s. It takes a bit to spin up to full power but 30 energy every ~28s to maintain 9% more damage is really not a huge sacrifice. When soloing and in PvP you'd use it mainly for the removal effect, but in raiding you'd absolutely use it. If you think you wouldn't, you need to learn this 'math' thing.
I'm assuming that removing Recently Bandaged is a bug, though.
RPZip wrote:
Quote:
Anyway, HFB is useable in stealth. No, it's not worth the energy cost. It wasn't worth it even when it was 5% per application. It's definitely not worth it at 3%.
Not true. It wasn't worth it when it was 5% per application for 15s. It takes a bit to spin up to full power but 30 energy every ~28s to maintain 9% more damage is really not a huge sacrifice. When soloing and in PvP you'd use it mainly for the removal effect, but in raiding you'd absolutely use it. If you think you wouldn't, you need to learn this 'math' thing.
I'm assuming that removing Recently Bandaged is a bug, though.
Yeah, you're correct. I haven't done any math on it since the duration change, and I haven't really had time to visit EJ or the beta forum (not that the beta forum helps, it's all just rogues whining about retarded crap).
Overlord Theophany wrote:
RPZip wrote:
Quote:
Anyway, HFB is useable in stealth. No, it's not worth the energy cost. It wasn't worth it even when it was 5% per application. It's definitely not worth it at 3%.
Not true. It wasn't worth it when it was 5% per application for 15s. It takes a bit to spin up to full power but 30 energy every ~28s to maintain 9% more damage is really not a huge sacrifice. When soloing and in PvP you'd use it mainly for the removal effect, but in raiding you'd absolutely use it. If you think you wouldn't, you need to learn this 'math' thing.
I'm assuming that removing Recently Bandaged is a bug, though.
Yeah, you're correct. I haven't done any math on it since the duration change, and I haven't really had time to visit EJ or the beta forum (not that the beta forum helps, it's all just rogues whining about retarded crap).
That wasn't from EJ or the Rogue forums, but 1 E/S for 9% global damage is a pretty obvious "Yeah, that's probably a good thing". It was much worse before because it was 2 E/S and you couldn't sustain any kind of Muti rotation without getting insanely lucky on what was then the rather terrible Focused Attacks and keep it active at the same time.
Muti is looking pretty hot for DPS right now, really.
EDIT;
wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=f0ef0exoidoIzAo0xV0xZ0b
EDIT2: That assumed a Retadin, of course. Without one, drop two points out of Quick Recovery and one out of Imp Poisons or Lethality.
Edited, Sep 18th 2008 5:03pm by RPZip
Edited, Sep 18th 2008 5:04pm by RPZip
This build is better. 
You'll be running 5e/5r or 5e/5en. If you're running 5e/5r, move the points in Fleet Footed to Blood Spatter.
And yeah, Focused Attacks is insane. It's proccing on poisons, finishers...everything.
You'll be running 5e/5r or 5e/5en. If you're running 5e/5r, move the points in Fleet Footed to Blood Spatter.
And yeah, Focused Attacks is insane. It's proccing on poisons, finishers...everything.
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It's proccing on poisons, finishers...everything.
Holy crap, it is!?!?!?!
I have to get home, like NOW to try it out... DAMN! I copied before I got my new dagger! Arrggggggg
TherionSaysWhat wrote:
Quote:
It's proccing on poisons, finishers...everything.
Holy crap, it is!?!?!?!
I have to get home, like NOW to try it out... DAMN! I copied before I got my new dagger! Arrggggggg
It says "melee" but apparently it's applying to poisons, currently.
Seriously doubt it'll make 3.0 release like that, but damn! that's awesomesawz.
*edit: clarification
Edited, Sep 18th 2008 2:38pm by TherionSaysWhat
*edit: clarification
Edited, Sep 18th 2008 2:38pm by TherionSaysWhat
1) Two points into Deadly Brew is pretty pointless if you're running Evisc, and if you're running Envenom there's no real reason to not use it over and over. The math gets a bit complicated on which is better (re: different AP scaling, the bonus chance to proc instant poisons for 1 + CP seconds), but what possible reason would there be to ever run 5e/5en? If En is worth using over Ev (and to me it looks like it is, especially at decent AP totals) then just go 5en or 5en/5r and drop the wasted points in Imp. Evisc.
2) Similarly, even on moderate mobility fights there's no real reason to get Fleet Footed. It's faster than AGI + Run Speed or the equivalent in the expansion, but is it faster enough to justify it over another point into Imp. Poisons? I doubt it. It was a no brainer in TBC because a whopping 6 AGI loss for the mobility was nothing, but more Instant Poison procs (read as: 10% of AP plus some more as free damage) are rather nice.
3) Turn the Tables is similarly rather nice, although I can see dumping it for better points. Combo Points means only Muti (plus I guess SS et al), right? Hmm.
If you spam Envenom, I'd say something more like 51/13/7 (points dropped from Cut to the Chase since if you're hitting Envenom constantly you should get refreshes on SnD anyway, but the points could be adjusted). If you do En/R then I think something more like this. Two points in SnD shouldn't be a requirement if the pattern is Muti, Muti, Finish since you'll be doing that every 12 seconds even with zero bonus energy from Focused Attacks.
I guess I don't really see why you'd ever use En/Evi. Either one is better than the other or it isn't.
2) Similarly, even on moderate mobility fights there's no real reason to get Fleet Footed. It's faster than AGI + Run Speed or the equivalent in the expansion, but is it faster enough to justify it over another point into Imp. Poisons? I doubt it. It was a no brainer in TBC because a whopping 6 AGI loss for the mobility was nothing, but more Instant Poison procs (read as: 10% of AP plus some more as free damage) are rather nice.
3) Turn the Tables is similarly rather nice, although I can see dumping it for better points. Combo Points means only Muti (plus I guess SS et al), right? Hmm.
If you spam Envenom, I'd say something more like 51/13/7 (points dropped from Cut to the Chase since if you're hitting Envenom constantly you should get refreshes on SnD anyway, but the points could be adjusted). If you do En/R then I think something more like this. Two points in SnD shouldn't be a requirement if the pattern is Muti, Muti, Finish since you'll be doing that every 12 seconds even with zero bonus energy from Focused Attacks.
I guess I don't really see why you'd ever use En/Evi. Either one is better than the other or it isn't.
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And yeah, Focused Attacks is insane. It's proccing on poisons, finishers...everything.
Damn... I might actually like a viable build! Go muti!
RPZip wrote:
1) Two points into Deadly Brew is pretty pointless if you're running Evisc, and if you're running Envenom there's no real reason to not use it over and over. The math gets a bit complicated on which is better (re: different AP scaling, the bonus chance to proc instant poisons for 1 + CP seconds), but what possible reason would there be to ever run 5e/5en? If En is worth using over Ev (and to me it looks like it is, especially at decent AP totals) then just go 5en or 5en/5r and drop the wasted points in Imp. Evisc.
2) Similarly, even on moderate mobility fights there's no real reason to get Fleet Footed. It's faster than AGI + Run Speed or the equivalent in the expansion, but is it faster enough to justify it over another point into Imp. Poisons? I doubt it. It was a no brainer in TBC because a whopping 6 AGI loss for the mobility was nothing, but more Instant Poison procs (read as: 10% of AP plus some more as free damage) are rather nice.
3) Turn the Tables is similarly rather nice, although I can see dumping it for better points. Combo Points means only Muti (plus I guess SS et al), right? Hmm.
If you spam Envenom, I'd say something more like 51/13/7 (points dropped from Cut to the Chase since if you're hitting Envenom constantly you should get refreshes on SnD anyway, but the points could be adjusted). If you do En/R then I think something more like this. Two points in SnD shouldn't be a requirement if the pattern is Muti, Muti, Finish since you'll be doing that every 12 seconds even with zero bonus energy from Focused Attacks.
I guess I don't really see why you'd ever use En/Evi. Either one is better than the other or it isn't.
2) Similarly, even on moderate mobility fights there's no real reason to get Fleet Footed. It's faster than AGI + Run Speed or the equivalent in the expansion, but is it faster enough to justify it over another point into Imp. Poisons? I doubt it. It was a no brainer in TBC because a whopping 6 AGI loss for the mobility was nothing, but more Instant Poison procs (read as: 10% of AP plus some more as free damage) are rather nice.
3) Turn the Tables is similarly rather nice, although I can see dumping it for better points. Combo Points means only Muti (plus I guess SS et al), right? Hmm.
If you spam Envenom, I'd say something more like 51/13/7 (points dropped from Cut to the Chase since if you're hitting Envenom constantly you should get refreshes on SnD anyway, but the points could be adjusted). If you do En/R then I think something more like this. Two points in SnD shouldn't be a requirement if the pattern is Muti, Muti, Finish since you'll be doing that every 12 seconds even with zero bonus energy from Focused Attacks.
I guess I don't really see why you'd ever use En/Evi. Either one is better than the other or it isn't.
The point is you lose a lot of damage just spamming Envenom, as it clears your DP stack. You alternate Envenom with Evis so you can rebuild your DP stack. Mut builds CPs so fast that you wouldn't be able to get a 5 stack of DP up fast enough to just use 5en/5en.
The main thing rogues are looking at right now is the damage that you're doing per finisher. It's very close right now in Envenom versus Rupture, due to the DP ticks being lost, but Eviscerate is a clear winner unless boss armor scales incredibly in WotLK.
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I did a short test on those combat dummies or whatever, and here's what I found:
As this spec: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?rogue=005205000000000000000000000000532300535010250210230310515020000000000000000000000000
Rupture did 35418 damage after 10 applications (of 8 ticks each), which gives 3541.8 damage per finisher.
Envenom did 39525 damage after 11 applications, which gives 3593.2 damage per finisher.
Eviscerate did 87552 damage after 15 applications, which gives 5836.8 damage per finisher.
I then subtracted 37% of Eviscerate's damage (lost due to armor... arrived at 37% because that's what BC bosses give. Anyone know what LK boss armor values are?) and got 3677.2 damage per finisher.
Eviscerate seems to be winning out pure damage wise, and while I didn't record the total DPS using each of these methods, I will say I noticed that Eviscerate was giving more overall DPS. I was not spec'd into imp eviscerate at the time of the test, but if I rearranged some talents to look more like this:
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?rogue=005205000000000000000000000030500300535210250210230310515020000000000000000000000000
I would be able to spec 3/3 imp Evisc, which would further boost Evisc's lead (I took all the points out of Ruthlessness because too often I was using Mutilate to generate the 5th combo point. The increased movement speed allows for additional agility to get thrown onto the boots, and still have increased speed).
As this spec: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?rogue=005205000000000000000000000000532300535010250210230310515020000000000000000000000000
Rupture did 35418 damage after 10 applications (of 8 ticks each), which gives 3541.8 damage per finisher.
Envenom did 39525 damage after 11 applications, which gives 3593.2 damage per finisher.
Eviscerate did 87552 damage after 15 applications, which gives 5836.8 damage per finisher.
I then subtracted 37% of Eviscerate's damage (lost due to armor... arrived at 37% because that's what BC bosses give. Anyone know what LK boss armor values are?) and got 3677.2 damage per finisher.
Eviscerate seems to be winning out pure damage wise, and while I didn't record the total DPS using each of these methods, I will say I noticed that Eviscerate was giving more overall DPS. I was not spec'd into imp eviscerate at the time of the test, but if I rearranged some talents to look more like this:
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?rogue=005205000000000000000000000030500300535210250210230310515020000000000000000000000000
I would be able to spec 3/3 imp Evisc, which would further boost Evisc's lead (I took all the points out of Ruthlessness because too often I was using Mutilate to generate the 5th combo point. The increased movement speed allows for additional agility to get thrown onto the boots, and still have increased speed).
There's some of the kinds of math we're looking at right now, but since things are still in flux and we're still getting used to how we'll DPS as mut (as it's dramatically different with CttC), we don't know for sure. I'd imagine the next month or so will see some changes to the mutilate spec as people get more comfortable with how to DPS as mut and what the big problems facing it at.
Of course that's a small sample size, but it's fairly representative. Larger data collections would tell us what the damage range looks like on Evis with a more exacting range, but as it's about ~100 damage ahead per finisher (and keep in mind that doesn't subtract the damage missed out on from DP going down), we can pretty safely assume that evis will be one of the finishers in WotLK.
60% is risky with no points in imp SnD. 21 seconds is like two envenoms with your cycle. There's a 16% chance that neither will prock Cut to the Chase. You can't afford that kind of chance when talking about SnD uptime. either max out cut to the chase or get imp snd.
Estimating focused at 3e/sec (too conservative if it procs off poisons too, but no way is that going through) you should get an extra 61 energy over the 21 sec - not enouh to do another envenom, even if it's only 3 point.
If you're using evi instead then this doesn't change.
EDIT: actually, @#%^ it, my estimate is too conservative anyway. I'd say more like 5e/sec, which would be 105 energy, which still isn't enough for a 3 point evisc/envenom (you lose 10 energy per finisher, so after mutilate you'd have approx 20 energy to try and envenom/evi with - obviously you're not going to succeed.
EDIT 2: Actually, it would be enough if you had Glyph of SnD as one of your 3 majot glyphs. Hum, cutting it fine, though.To realkly tell, we'd need more than a very loose estimate of the amoutn of energy focused attacks gives with an average critrate.
Edited, Sep 18th 2008 5:31pm by Kavekk
Edited, Sep 18th 2008 5:37pm by Kavekk
Estimating focused at 3e/sec (too conservative if it procs off poisons too, but no way is that going through) you should get an extra 61 energy over the 21 sec - not enouh to do another envenom, even if it's only 3 point.
If you're using evi instead then this doesn't change.
EDIT: actually, @#%^ it, my estimate is too conservative anyway. I'd say more like 5e/sec, which would be 105 energy, which still isn't enough for a 3 point evisc/envenom (you lose 10 energy per finisher, so after mutilate you'd have approx 20 energy to try and envenom/evi with - obviously you're not going to succeed.
EDIT 2: Actually, it would be enough if you had Glyph of SnD as one of your 3 majot glyphs. Hum, cutting it fine, though.To realkly tell, we'd need more than a very loose estimate of the amoutn of energy focused attacks gives with an average critrate.
Edited, Sep 18th 2008 5:31pm by Kavekk
Edited, Sep 18th 2008 5:37pm by Kavekk
BTW, remember that if you glyph for it, eviscerate has 10% higher crit chance than envenom. I don't think the guy Theo quoted took that into account.
Quote:
The point is you lose a lot of damage just spamming Envenom, as it clears your DP stack. You alternate Envenom with Evis so you can rebuild your DP stack. Mut builds CPs so fast that you wouldn't be able to get a 5 stack of DP up fast enough to just use 5en/5en.
I doubt it. You've got a what, 50% chance to proc DP with two hasted daggers? DP is going to fly back up after an Envenom, and if you're waiting for 5 CP? It should be up fast enough.
Actually, it's 50% chance to proc off of instant poison, 35% to proc instant poison with Improved Posions, so really it's a 17.5% chance to proc DP per weapon.
Just couldn't pass up a chance to prove RPZipp wrong on math XD
Just couldn't pass up a chance to prove RPZipp wrong on math XD
imanohealu wrote:
Actually, it's 50% chance to proc off of instant poison, 35% to proc instant poison with Improved Posions, so really it's a 17.5% chance to proc DP per weapon.
Just couldn't pass up a chance to prove RPZipp wrong on math XD
Just couldn't pass up a chance to prove RPZipp wrong on math XD
It's actually 100% proc off IP, 35% chance to apply IP.
And it's RPZip, not RPZipp.
Overlord Theophany wrote:
imanohealu wrote:
Actually, it's 50% chance to proc off of instant poison, 35% to proc instant poison with Improved Posions, so really it's a 17.5% chance to proc DP per weapon.
Just couldn't pass up a chance to prove RPZipp wrong on math XD
Just couldn't pass up a chance to prove RPZipp wrong on math XD
It's actually 100% proc off IP, 35% chance to apply IP.
And it's RPZip, not RPZipp.
And it's 50% for 1 + CP seconds after using envenom (+15%).
Scholar
28 posts
A lot of the discussion here revolves around damage per energy, yet none of the suggested builds include Vigor. Could someone remind me of the energy regen mechanics? Is it a fixed amount per second, or is it a percentage of maximum per second? If it is the former, then I can see Vigor being a waste because it only affects your opening series of abilities, since you will likely never make it to a full pool of energy once the fight starts. However if it is the latter, and one regenerates 110 energy over the same span of time as 100, maybe that translates (along with Focused Attacks) into some good energy efficiency that could be worth a point into the talent.
DoubleEagle wrote:
A lot of the discussion here revolves around damage per energy, yet none of the suggested builds include Vigor. Could someone remind me of the energy regen mechanics? Is it a fixed amount per second, or is it a percentage of maximum per second? If it is the former, then I can see Vigor being a waste because it only affects your opening series of abilities, since you will likely never make it to a full pool of energy once the fight starts. However if it is the latter, and one regenerates 110 energy over the same span of time as 100, maybe that translates (along with Focused Attacks) into some good energy efficiency that could be worth a point into the talent.
Fixed amount per second.
Scholar
28 posts
RPZip wrote:
DoubleEagle wrote:
A lot of the discussion here revolves around damage per energy, yet none of the suggested builds include Vigor. Could someone remind me of the energy regen mechanics? Is it a fixed amount per second, or is it a percentage of maximum per second? If it is the former, then I can see Vigor being a waste because it only affects your opening series of abilities, since you will likely never make it to a full pool of energy once the fight starts. However if it is the latter, and one regenerates 110 energy over the same span of time as 100, maybe that translates (along with Focused Attacks) into some good energy efficiency that could be worth a point into the talent.
Fixed amount per second.
That's what I thought - thanks.
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