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- Ret the new two handed fury - and some other notes
Ret the new two handed fury - and some other notesFollow
I started as Ret ... I miss being Ret ... I love to tank ... Tank as Ret? It's so crazy, it just might work! Can't wait to try it.
And best healer for a Ret Paladin... Priests. They can bubble you now, because you don't rely on getting hit for mana regeneration or threat regeneration. Just gotta heal through the incoming damage.
The 'dire ramifications' I can see are a hefty thwacking with the nerfhammer. Since Blizz lost their Paladin love back in vanilla and instead got a lasting ***** for Druids, I've been pretty worried about any Paladin buffs that I see as being precursors to a commensurate nerf. To check out what the OP was saying I hopped onto my friend's Merciless/Vengeful Retadin on the PTR to see what all the fuss is about in PvP.
Oh. My. God.
Now I know that Ret DPS is fine compared to Arms Warriors and Rogues, and I know that PvP balance is going to be preserved, but with the addition of new baseline spells like Sacred Shield I'm a bit worried Ret will be seen as too survivable now; on the PTR I recently outlasted a Resto Druid. The fight lasted eleven minutes. Thing was, that 20% mana return means a Retadin basically can't run out of mana unless they spam max Consecrate on top of everything else. With the increased DPS the Druid was forced to heal in caster form a LOT more often, and using those windows to Repent/CS and then DS/Judge to cut through the Bear armour afterwards was too much for their mana pool, even with regular Innervates. That's the first time I've beaten a geared Resto Druid on any class except my Purge-happy Shaman. Any meagre damage the Resto could return to me could either be Cleansed (Moonfire/Insect Swarm), interrupted or just healed with a quick FoL, which with Sheath is just.... oh my god.
In essence, slow-n-steady no longer wins the race against a skillful Retadin, because every 10secs Im getting back more mana than I can spend. Disc Priests with Mana Burn remain a problem, havent found an easy way around that yet. I think this is wonderful personally because Warriors sure as hell don't run out of Rage (in the permanent sense) but it changes the dynamic to something so much fun I'm genuinely worried they'll take it away.
Oh. My. God.
Now I know that Ret DPS is fine compared to Arms Warriors and Rogues, and I know that PvP balance is going to be preserved, but with the addition of new baseline spells like Sacred Shield I'm a bit worried Ret will be seen as too survivable now; on the PTR I recently outlasted a Resto Druid. The fight lasted eleven minutes. Thing was, that 20% mana return means a Retadin basically can't run out of mana unless they spam max Consecrate on top of everything else. With the increased DPS the Druid was forced to heal in caster form a LOT more often, and using those windows to Repent/CS and then DS/Judge to cut through the Bear armour afterwards was too much for their mana pool, even with regular Innervates. That's the first time I've beaten a geared Resto Druid on any class except my Purge-happy Shaman. Any meagre damage the Resto could return to me could either be Cleansed (Moonfire/Insect Swarm), interrupted or just healed with a quick FoL, which with Sheath is just.... oh my god.
In essence, slow-n-steady no longer wins the race against a skillful Retadin, because every 10secs Im getting back more mana than I can spend. Disc Priests with Mana Burn remain a problem, havent found an easy way around that yet. I think this is wonderful personally because Warriors sure as hell don't run out of Rage (in the permanent sense) but it changes the dynamic to something so much fun I'm genuinely worried they'll take it away.
What may,I think, get nerfed is the mana regen, not the damage and healing. I feel they addressed three main problems with ret balancing: low DPS compared to similarly geared characters, low survivability, and going oom too quickly. It looks like they overcompinsated in all three originally, but have re-balanced dps just about perfectly. Survivebalility may be a touch op still, but probably reasonable as every healing talent you take will move points away from other useful dps abilities. The tree still seems to be dripping with mana regen, though, and if ret can now put on BoK instead of BoW, spam attacks as fast as he can click buttons, and NEVER go oom, thats clearly still OP.
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and if ret can now put on BoK instead of BoW, spam attacks as fast as he can click buttons, and NEVER go oom, thats clearly still OP.
Why? Enhance Shamans do the same thing, with Water Shield and Shamanistic Rage it's impossible for them to go OOM either. A Ret can still OOM himself if he spams Consecration by the way, you must restrict that spell to certain situations. Warriors (which Retadins essentially resemble) don't go out of Rage either in the majority of situations, and constantly regenerate it as a function of combat instead of having to chug mana pots like Retadins. BoW never really felt right to any Retribution Paladin, having to use the 'healer' blessing instead of the 'melee' blessing just so you can perform your normal combat role was really annoying.
If Ret DPS was still in the pre-patch state where it was way overboard as well as being efficient I'd scream OP, right now I have no problem with a melee spec having a sustainable resource pool for their attacks. If I were still playing my Warlock, it'd mean I had to kill the Retadin, not just run around til Bubble is done and he's ran out of mana and is therefore utterly defenseless.
Edited, Sep 17th 2008 9:57am by Sinstralis
Hmm, i guess thats a reasonable analysis. And a good description of my interactions with warlocks in BG's, too :( If I don't have repentance HoJ, Divine shield AND LoH up from cooldown, one on one vs a similarly gaeard warlock is currently hopeless. I've found I can already do alright against resto druids, but yes, I have to pop mana pots and I've got maybe 3 mins to kill them tops.
From a solo perspective, eliminating downtime would be fabulous. It took so long to level...
From a solo perspective, eliminating downtime would be fabulous. It took so long to level...
know whats fun to do. just hang out in shat and listen to the Ret OP QQ. Just make sure you standing on high ground or you will drown.
Also, i tryed out my new Ret-ness on the PTR. i decided the best place was WSG . . . . wow was that a bad idea. what i found upon entering was a full Ret pally premade standing on our grave yard . . . the second everyone res'd, it was complete slaughter when everyone hit DS at the same time and send everyone back to the grave. it was still fun however, to spawn, pop a bubble and try to kill one of them.
Also, haveing an insta FoL every attack rotation is amazing. i crit healed myself for just under 2k HP with a mid 200 tick hot. if this stays till live, ima make a macro so i can use that on our tank every time its up. will be funny to see the Ret pally on the heal meters more then the friendly fire meters (SoB).
also, using the 50% bubble doesnt drop the flag either.
the one bad thing from all of this is that i need to unlearn my habit of re-seal after judgements. and im not used to the 2 minute seals either, i need to get the timeing down so i dont feel like it is expiring all the time. even though it isnt, its still in the back of my mind that it is. its bugging me ATM. damn, unlearning habits is hard.
Also, i tryed out my new Ret-ness on the PTR. i decided the best place was WSG . . . . wow was that a bad idea. what i found upon entering was a full Ret pally premade standing on our grave yard . . . the second everyone res'd, it was complete slaughter when everyone hit DS at the same time and send everyone back to the grave. it was still fun however, to spawn, pop a bubble and try to kill one of them.
Also, haveing an insta FoL every attack rotation is amazing. i crit healed myself for just under 2k HP with a mid 200 tick hot. if this stays till live, ima make a macro so i can use that on our tank every time its up. will be funny to see the Ret pally on the heal meters more then the friendly fire meters (SoB).
also, using the 50% bubble doesnt drop the flag either.
the one bad thing from all of this is that i need to unlearn my habit of re-seal after judgements. and im not used to the 2 minute seals either, i need to get the timeing down so i dont feel like it is expiring all the time. even though it isnt, its still in the back of my mind that it is. its bugging me ATM. damn, unlearning habits is hard.
From all I have heard about pallies in the PTR.. I hope they stick with this mix of buffs, regardless of QQ`n from others. Although I can see them knocking back the mana regen a tad, and the surviveability a tad too, but I sure hope to heck not. I soooooooo wanna see this stuff go live. So I can consider my ret pally fun again.
The off healing, the ret tanking, and the survivability, it sounds like I thought the class was when I first started playing 3 years ago.
Heres to hoping bliz doesn`t listen to the QQ`n this time.
The off healing, the ret tanking, and the survivability, it sounds like I thought the class was when I first started playing 3 years ago.
Heres to hoping bliz doesn`t listen to the QQ`n this time.
Something i haven't heard anyone mention much is the big change to LoH. It's cooldown is reduced to 20 mins, and no longer drains all mana. This leads to the crazy possibility: LoH in the arena?
LoH still can`t be used, as far as I know, the CD limit is still 10 min and under. Or wass it 5, I can`t remember.
Almost certain it's 15 minutes before talents.
Infernals in arena, but no LoH.
Infernals in arena, but no LoH.
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From all I have heard about pallies in the PTR.. I hope they stick with this mix of buffs, regardless of QQ`n from others. Although I can see them knocking back the mana regen a tad, and the surviveability a tad too, but I sure hope to heck not. I soooooooo wanna see this stuff go live. So I can consider my ret pally fun again.
The off healing, the ret tanking, and the survivability, it sounds like I thought the class was when I first started playing 3 years ago.
Heres to hoping bliz doesn`t listen to the QQ`n this time.
The off healing, the ret tanking, and the survivability, it sounds like I thought the class was when I first started playing 3 years ago.
Heres to hoping bliz doesn`t listen to the QQ`n this time.
Hell yeah and AMEN to that! Those rets that are doing INSANE damage and people QQing in pvp, well those rets are the ones who are usually decked out in brutal, or even veng/merc and have been playing ret BEFORE the talent changes. They were pretty good before, with the talents and buffs, of course they are two shotting things, just like many others are. In comparable gear, or lower greens and mix of blues, my numbers arent far off from where my fire mage was when he was first gearing up.
I have tried and played every other class a few 70s, one in its 60s, and a majority of melee/dps into their 40s - ie, fury war, enh shammy, and Spriest. Those specs annhilate stuff while leveling and pretty damn good survivability. No reason why ret should not be the same, they are hybrids, even warriors. Not straight up heal, tank, dps hybrids,but hybrids nonetheless, fury got a lot of love not too long ago, and have become even more viable in BC raiding...with 2.3 ret got a little nudge. Now their being overhauled and fixed to "balance," uh oh,there's that word again.
But when I played a pally, my first toon, I had visions of what this was about. I was so sorely dissatisfied, that I started playing my mage with my fiance's druid, and it quickly took over. But everytime I log onto play one of the four on the PTR - mage, rogue, lock or pally, the pally is the one I have the most fun with. It reminds me of the fun I have playing with my fury warrior or enh shammy, their fun! Now my pally is like taking both and combining them. Calling it the new ENFURY!
Im so excited about the other specs too, havent tried them out yet, ret's sooo much fun, but as I said before, he may become my MAIN again, with the possibility to build sets for all three specs and be extremely sought after for any of them or to swap out as needed, especially with the new ability to respec on the fly that lich is supposed to be offering - two specs.
I was sooo looking forward to DK, and thinking of allthe other classes that I could change to be my new main, I just dont "feel" it with the other classes as much as I am right now with the Pally. Loved the idea of a pally way back when I played Bard's tales I,II and III :D The Shining Knight that brings down that hammer on its enemies, a protector and a healer. LOVING IT :D
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LoH still can`t be used, as far as I know, the CD limit is still 10 min and under. Or wass it 5, I can`t remember.
Logged on the PTR to see. Its 20 min CD, no mana cost, grants mana back - the max rank at lvl 79 or so grants I believe close to 1700 mana back, whereas the 70 version only 900 mana, with gylph even moreso. Talents can reduce it by an additional 2/4 minutes after 10 points in holy. Not sure if other talents would improve upon it, dont think so
Edited, Sep 17th 2008 5:16pm by spicyoctopusroll
AS stated above.
"Hmm, i guess thats a reasonable analysis. And a good description of my interactions with warlocks in BG's, too :( If I don't have repentance HoJ, Divine shield AND LoH up from cooldown, one on one vs a similarly gaeard warlock is currently hopeless. I've found I can already do alright against resto druids, but yes, I have to pop mana pots and I've got maybe 3 mins to kill them tops.
From a solo perspective, eliminating downtime would be fabulous. It took so long to level..."
I did learn one thing with PvP against a warlock, and hunters, since both like to kit so much, that judgement of jusctice is your best friend, use it. ON EVERY ENEMIE... it don`t seem like much, as long as you have a speed buff or enchant or PoJ you will almost never be just out of range. I always hated that so much.
You just have to make it into habit to judge that seal on all players you fight. It makes a world of difference. Trust me on that, makes druids easier too.
Edited, Sep 17th 2008 5:16pm by cmcculloch
"Hmm, i guess thats a reasonable analysis. And a good description of my interactions with warlocks in BG's, too :( If I don't have repentance HoJ, Divine shield AND LoH up from cooldown, one on one vs a similarly gaeard warlock is currently hopeless. I've found I can already do alright against resto druids, but yes, I have to pop mana pots and I've got maybe 3 mins to kill them tops.
From a solo perspective, eliminating downtime would be fabulous. It took so long to level..."
I did learn one thing with PvP against a warlock, and hunters, since both like to kit so much, that judgement of jusctice is your best friend, use it. ON EVERY ENEMIE... it don`t seem like much, as long as you have a speed buff or enchant or PoJ you will almost never be just out of range. I always hated that so much.
You just have to make it into habit to judge that seal on all players you fight. It makes a world of difference. Trust me on that, makes druids easier too.
Edited, Sep 17th 2008 5:16pm by cmcculloch
Indeed, Ret is a lot closer to the original idea of a Retribution Paladin, swinging and striking and healing right in the thick of combat. If nothing else, I hope they keep the insta-FoL; that alone makes Ret worth playing again. Sheath of Light is a healthy addition to it, but simply being able to maintenance heal outside of the bubble means players really do need to outgear or outskill me now, instead of out-mana me.
Considering how a Druid can pop into Caster form, thow on significant instant HoTs and then shift back to a melee class there is no excuse for Paladins not being able to do the same in their DPS tree. Particularly as Warriors even have an instant Heal these days.
EDIT:
Ehhh... true for classes that are likely to want to run away. Rogues and Warriors there is no point really as they need to be near you, same for Enhance Shamans. On those I tend to judge Crusader for the extra 3% crit.
Edited, Sep 18th 2008 12:52am by Sinstralis
Considering how a Druid can pop into Caster form, thow on significant instant HoTs and then shift back to a melee class there is no excuse for Paladins not being able to do the same in their DPS tree. Particularly as Warriors even have an instant Heal these days.
EDIT:
Quote:
You just have to make it into habit to judge that seal on all players you fight
Ehhh... true for classes that are likely to want to run away. Rogues and Warriors there is no point really as they need to be near you, same for Enhance Shamans. On those I tend to judge Crusader for the extra 3% crit.
Edited, Sep 18th 2008 12:52am by Sinstralis
Well I logged onto the PTR to test it out. OMG these changes really are quite insane. Most of you know my gear isn't anything to be proud of (You can check it out on my armory if you'd like) still not fully epicced out, and a couple pieces are still meh. I've been mostly doing PvE content to see what I can do.
I solo'd Verethis (from the 5-man group quest in Shadowmoon where you have to use the book of Fel Names)
I got a Fel Reaver down to about 50% (would have killed it if it didn't do Warstomp so much)
I went to my prot grinding areas in Shadowmoon and did the exact same thing as Ret except I killed everything about 3x faster.
I cleared Ramps in 30 mins, same thing with BF. I'm going to keep doing the instances until I find one that I just can't solo.
Some notes: by using Seal of Light with Judgement of Light, it increases your survivability a TON, especialy when fighting multiple mobs. There's so much damage flinging around anyway, combined with Divine Storm with each hit having a chance to proc SoL, combined with the instant FoLs and the DS heals and the Sheath of Light procs, it's like nothing can kill you.
I solo'd Verethis (from the 5-man group quest in Shadowmoon where you have to use the book of Fel Names)
I got a Fel Reaver down to about 50% (would have killed it if it didn't do Warstomp so much)
I went to my prot grinding areas in Shadowmoon and did the exact same thing as Ret except I killed everything about 3x faster.
I cleared Ramps in 30 mins, same thing with BF. I'm going to keep doing the instances until I find one that I just can't solo.
Some notes: by using Seal of Light with Judgement of Light, it increases your survivability a TON, especialy when fighting multiple mobs. There's so much damage flinging around anyway, combined with Divine Storm with each hit having a chance to proc SoL, combined with the instant FoLs and the DS heals and the Sheath of Light procs, it's like nothing can kill you.
Quote:
Well I logged onto the PTR to test it out. OMG these changes really are quite insane. Most of you know my gear isn't anything to be proud of (You can check it out on my armory if you'd like) still not fully epicced out, and a couple pieces are still meh. I've been mostly doing PvE content to see what I can do.
I solo'd Verethis (from the 5-man group quest in Shadowmoon where you have to use the book of Fel Names)
I got a Fel Reaver down to about 50% (would have killed it if it didn't do Warstomp so much)
I went to my prot grinding areas in Shadowmoon and did the exact same thing as Ret except I killed everything about 3x faster.
I cleared Ramps in 30 mins, same thing with BF. I'm going to keep doing the instances until I find one that I just can't solo.
Some notes: by using Seal of Light with Judgement of Light, it increases your survivability a TON, especialy when fighting multiple mobs. There's so much damage flinging around anyway, combined with Divine Storm with each hit having a chance to proc SoL, combined with the instant FoLs and the DS heals and the Sheath of Light procs, it's like nothing can kill you.
I solo'd Verethis (from the 5-man group quest in Shadowmoon where you have to use the book of Fel Names)
I got a Fel Reaver down to about 50% (would have killed it if it didn't do Warstomp so much)
I went to my prot grinding areas in Shadowmoon and did the exact same thing as Ret except I killed everything about 3x faster.
I cleared Ramps in 30 mins, same thing with BF. I'm going to keep doing the instances until I find one that I just can't solo.
Some notes: by using Seal of Light with Judgement of Light, it increases your survivability a TON, especialy when fighting multiple mobs. There's so much damage flinging around anyway, combined with Divine Storm with each hit having a chance to proc SoL, combined with the instant FoLs and the DS heals and the Sheath of Light procs, it's like nothing can kill you.
SEE! Couldnt resist couldya LOL.
Yeah, I touched on the seal of light thing and seal of wisdom thing in my initial posting. Try just running around, gathering up a crapton of mobs and aoeing them down as RET! Pretty freaking badass...sounds like you did it as protection first. Since my gear is much better in prot than ret, I still have to try that out. Saw a Prot Pally on the PTR realm soloing DURN, she/he would have had it, if it werent for the extreme lag/and eventual DC, had him down to 50% without loss of health and mana just oozing back.
If you just tried it today, thats with the new patch with the mini nerf to replenish as well! down to .25% mana regen from .5%.
Fun stuff, fun fun fun :D
im excited, new build today and aside from a very expected SoC balancing/nerf, there is no nerfs to Ret Pallys. hopefully this is a good indication that we are very close to blizzards expectations, and that the QQer will just have to deal with it.
Yeah to be honest I'm smiling quite widely at the moment... after all the Ret crying on the o-boards it was gratifying to see a fairly hefty patch go by without the meganerfs the Rogues and Warriors are assuring us we're in for.
I personally do expect a little nerf in the future, my guess would be Divine Storm changed to a 10sec cooldown to cut down on the in-bubble DPS, but apart from that it seems they're more or less done with Ret...
The only way to achieve the kind of nerfs the 'pure' DPS classes are calling for on the PTR boards would be to remove the 20% mana return on Judge, remove instant heals from crits, AND remove or castrate Sheath of Light. Basically to bring about the 'balance' Ive been reading about we'd have to lose almost all our new mechanics and be back to manaless wannabe Warriors. Not gonna happen.
I know that even with my current crappy PvP gear, instant heals, Sheath and 20% mana surges are all I need to truly compete in PvP; Divine Storm is actually totally irrelevant to this equation.
Im really hoping Retadins get a fair shot this time out....
I personally do expect a little nerf in the future, my guess would be Divine Storm changed to a 10sec cooldown to cut down on the in-bubble DPS, but apart from that it seems they're more or less done with Ret...
The only way to achieve the kind of nerfs the 'pure' DPS classes are calling for on the PTR boards would be to remove the 20% mana return on Judge, remove instant heals from crits, AND remove or castrate Sheath of Light. Basically to bring about the 'balance' Ive been reading about we'd have to lose almost all our new mechanics and be back to manaless wannabe Warriors. Not gonna happen.
I know that even with my current crappy PvP gear, instant heals, Sheath and 20% mana surges are all I need to truly compete in PvP; Divine Storm is actually totally irrelevant to this equation.
Im really hoping Retadins get a fair shot this time out....
AHMEN TO THAT BROTHER !!!!
if i was told that Ret had a 100% chance to get a good sized nerf, i would expect some of the following.
Sheith of light down to 20-25% convertion
DS down to 75% weapon damage as its an AoE ability. or a higher CD.
Nerf imp HoJ talent back to old.
anything else and they would have to remove or break our new mechanics like Sin said.
Sheith of light down to 20-25% convertion
DS down to 75% weapon damage as its an AoE ability. or a higher CD.
Nerf imp HoJ talent back to old.
anything else and they would have to remove or break our new mechanics like Sin said.
Just had to add my two pennies. Copied my tankadin over (Brock, linked below) and respec'd to ret in beta a couple of days ago. With about half ret gear (Hammer of Naruu and some DPS plate out of ZA) I ran right to the zep outside UC and spent a couple of hours trying out the new ret talents in Northend.
O. M. G.
Ret now totally rocks your socks like a toxic pox.
The new seal mechanic is far, far simpler to deal with and makes more sense. The damage output is much more level with other DPS specific classes (not quite as much as my rogue, but, what'cha expect? =). Overall, it was a total blast.
O. M. G.
Ret now totally rocks your socks like a toxic pox.
The new seal mechanic is far, far simpler to deal with and makes more sense. The damage output is much more level with other DPS specific classes (not quite as much as my rogue, but, what'cha expect? =). Overall, it was a total blast.
WOOOT! All I can say, not just for REt, but all around. I cant wait everytime I log into the PTR to play with the Pally.
Hell, I dont PVP, and I logged in 4 hours last night (on live) to start building up some honor and PVP badges FOR the patch (try to get me some merci gear), still in my prot gear and build lol, did quite well im surprise (on live that is). Not surprising alli did pretty well in AV, but the daily was AB, which im not the most fond of but better than others, and it was my final game of the night, and low and behold we one. ITS A SIGN! The paladin Omen if you will.
And its AV weekend this weekend. Nice :D
EDIT - I levele a rogue to 70 to play melee DPS, I was leveling a warrior fury to 44 for melee dps, and also an enh shammy for melee dps...lol Now my retadin is as fun or even moreso and I can build sets and have fun with the other two specs too! Cant wait to try out the new tankadin builds. I logged in for a sec right before the PTR went down a little bit ago, to check on some things on my lock, and in the horizon I could see someone fighting the reaver (the irony that cap mentioned it lol) and when I clicked on the reaver - there was a nice blue judgement on it.
Edited, Sep 18th 2008 4:56pm by spicyoctopusroll
Hell, I dont PVP, and I logged in 4 hours last night (on live) to start building up some honor and PVP badges FOR the patch (try to get me some merci gear), still in my prot gear and build lol, did quite well im surprise (on live that is). Not surprising alli did pretty well in AV, but the daily was AB, which im not the most fond of but better than others, and it was my final game of the night, and low and behold we one. ITS A SIGN! The paladin Omen if you will.
And its AV weekend this weekend. Nice :D
EDIT - I levele a rogue to 70 to play melee DPS, I was leveling a warrior fury to 44 for melee dps, and also an enh shammy for melee dps...lol Now my retadin is as fun or even moreso and I can build sets and have fun with the other two specs too! Cant wait to try out the new tankadin builds. I logged in for a sec right before the PTR went down a little bit ago, to check on some things on my lock, and in the horizon I could see someone fighting the reaver (the irony that cap mentioned it lol) and when I clicked on the reaver - there was a nice blue judgement on it.
Edited, Sep 18th 2008 4:56pm by spicyoctopusroll
Do you guys/gals figure that ret pallies will be coming out of the wood work in the expansion?, or do you think it won`t be that different, I`m not even gonna start on DK`s running around.
One quick question... is seal of coruption and seal of vengence the same seal, just alliance and horde?
cmcculloch wrote:
One quick question... is seal of coruption and seal of vengence the same seal, just alliance and horde?
yup.
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