Totem ProtectionFollow

>.> Not really. The reason frost mage has never worked well in PVE is because you couldn't shatter on bosses since they couldn't be snared. The other reason is Fire had Molten Fury (bonus damage below 20% enemy health). The combination of those two pushed fire far ahead of frost. In terms of PVP, shatter works and the amount of time an enemy is below 20% health is negligible in comparison to a raid boss.

I'd argue frost can do MUCH more damage in PVP than Fire (at least on live). So not only does a frost mage gain more survivability, a pet (essentially making a 2v2 ... a 3v2), but they also gain more burst damage.

PS: A third reason fire has been the #1 in raiding is 5 stack of scorch which YOU WOULDN'T do in pvp.. unless you are killing someone with scorch spam.

Edited, Sep 18th 2008 11:56am by Jiade

One of the biggest problem with pigeonholing totem protection with a single spec for shaman is that while many have opinions on which specs fit better in particular areas of wow, the shaman class has no real establishment between the specs to pigeonhole what is intended for each spec.

All of our talent trees are sloppily thrown together with cluttered with both PvP and PvE talents if Blizzard wants elemental to be our PvP spec using survivability and damage from a distance then get rid of our PvE talents with the changes in gear we can jump between restoration and just heal in PvE or for nothing else be a buffing spot healer in 25 man raiding environment. If enhancement is intended to be our PvE DPS spec for leveling and raiding then push it further in that direction and make it a glass cannon. The only spec that I can see being ment for both PvE and PvP is restoration because you always need healers so bad for either situation, and survivability is always what healers are good at.

At the moment we have 2 dps trees cluttered with both PvP and PvE talents and it seems rather then putting there foot down and basicaly establishing each spec they are trying to allow shaman to have a choice, I want to be a PvE elemental shaman, I want to be a PvP elemental shaman, I want to be a PvE enhancement shaman, I want to be a PvP enhancement shaman. Now we have a half working class with 2 half working specs and Blizzard is so scared in trying to balance the spec and making a mistake that they would rather keep it underpowered.

If I knew X tree was ment for PvP and then they got a talent for protecting totems while my Spec y didn't, based on how the trees are now your damn sure I would be pissed because every tree is basically set up to PvP and if X can protect there totems I want to protect my totems as well.

Also assuming doesn't work in competitive PvP like arenas, if I see another shaman in arena I look at his mana bar and his and his teammates buffs, I figure out if he is a caster or a melee and from that point if I see Earthen Shield on anyone I know if he is restoration or elemental. Every Arena team does this with every class and spec and yes there is a lot of assuming done but If I knew it took a restoration shaman to make stunning totems I am gonna want to know what spec he is even more because I want to kill his totems just like everyone does to me because I know how affective this tactic is against shaman.

I kind of wish Blizzard would man up and really establish the specs already that would be a good move in the right direction for shaman in all areas of the game.

Moz, the worst totem destroying I've seen comes from Pet classes. While that lock is standing still, burning his cast bar and chain-fearing you, his felpup is crunching the totems. Ditto the hunter and his cat. Or a mage kiting you while icelancing the totems. It's a GCD for GCD tradeoff most of the time but particularly irritating if it's a pet class (where there's no tradeoff because the player gets simultaneous GCDs) or you're being kited, so all you can do with your GCDs is drop totems and watch them get zapped the moment you drop em. Since we're purgebots we're all familiar with the tradeoffs of dispelling buffs and we know how easy it is for some classes to axe ours. Others, true, not so easy (priest seems like a pain to kill totems, or pally).

Rogues really only need to kill the Poison cleansing, then they can go back to stunlocking us to death.

>.> Can't you blind, kill a totem or two... AND restealth? lol (assuming the other partner is preoccupied... because blind isn't going to do much to let you restealth if the other partner is focused on you anyways).... unless you vasnih.

Don't get me wrong, unless the rogue is WAY amazing, he's gonna have a hard time killing me just because of armor etc. But usually... the shaman is going to be focus fired. Mage + Rogue... and a shaman has ZERO chance of living through kidney shot.

The HUGE issue isn't so much with rogues but with warlocks and hunters. They lose no cast time, no gcd, no anything and destroy our totems. Usually the only totems people destroy REGULARLY are windfury, earthbind, and poison cleansing. Warlocks also destroy tremor totem. Only one that really concerns rogues is poison cleansing. /target poison and it is dead with almost no time lost on dps.

You can not possibly compare laying a totem to casting Fear and expect people to take your argument seriously. If you can't see how many more uses Fear has than just buying you 1.0-1.5 seconds of not getting your face raped by a Rogue, then I just don't know what's to be done.


First, you tell me what other options Rogues need aside from meleeing a totem.


... But don't cost you your interrupt, only reliable snare, or only worthwhile instant-cast damage spell/DoT.


Well then, exactly what point were you trying to make here? Sounded like you were just fishing for a reason to discredit my stance on the matter, but I could be wrong.


A hassle. Not a problem, not a threat, but a hassle. Yes, that's... that's just horrible, that's what that is.


That's pretty much identicle to my dispel suggestion.

Actually, you can compare the two in a really simple way. They're both a form of CC. Or if you can't live with that wording, both of them make sure your enemy is being 'annoyed' due to the fact that they are being forced into do something they'd rather not (; they'd rather focus on the target at hand). Granted, totems that need to be destroyed are probably the ********* form of 'CC' ever, but they do help. Which is exactly what I'm stating.



If you want an option that doesn't inconvenience you at áll, we'll need a clickable button that immediately destroys all totems in the vinicity and doesn't trigger global CD. But the fact that we don't need other options to destroy totems doesn't say that our current options work flawless 100% of the time without influencing whatever we're currently doing.



No, they cost me a CC cooldown. I never said our loss was as great as a shaman's on this point (which is what you're insinuating), I'm stating there Ãs loss.



If you think that's what it sounds like, keep thinking, that's your choice. I don't feel the need or urge to defend myself here.



No, it isn't. But it's just the thing I've been stating from my first post; you'd be surprised how much of a hassle it is, seeing as your first post strongly gave me the feeling you were underestimating a totem's effect on other classes, or more specifically, the rogue.



Now that you mention it.




I never asked you to give your opinion on my vision and experiences. Doubt away, no hard feelings.



Unless you get close? This is a point I've never been certain over, I just never took chances. I did say I haven't seriously played a Shaman. Odds are large I'll mix stuff up; I'm looking at this from a rogues perspective, and I do know there's a couple of totems I'll destroy whenever I see them. Same thing with the blind+kill totems theory, really; technically spoken it should be possible to kill... 2 totems and restealth before blind ends, following the wowwiki rules about out of combat, diminishing returns and blind. It's just that I've never done or seen that happen; reality proves different than what 'mathematical' logics would say.

On a side-note; if searing doesn't break stealth, why the hell does every shaman I see drop it? Is that really the best the fire tree has to offer?



First things first; If a shaman is running he's usually in trouble anyways? That's nonsense, you're insinuating a shaman who isn't in trouble just stands there. I've only seen awful shamans do such things, all avarage to good shamans have been trying to kite and/or LOS me untill they actually needed to heal. Second, I was specifically referring to the situation where the poison dispelling totem (or even partner) dispells crippling before we get rid of it, and the shaman wolves out of our range while we're stuck in earthbind. Yes, Deadly Throw is a nice counter, one I use a lot. No, my current spec doesn't have shadowstep. Yes, I'm hesitant to use sprint; it increases my speed by 70% while earthbind slows it by 50%. With a 20% speed increase it still takes some time to catch up with a running shaman.

In the end, yes, ofcourse Earthbind is fairly easily countered by a rogue. If I REALLY wanted to I could pop cloak and sprint. The thing is, once again, you're causing a nuisance for us.



Yes, but if I leave for example an earthbind totem intact, the shaman will backtrack to it lateron. And what about the poison cleansing totem we're on about so much?



That's got nothing to do with the discussion though. Ofcourse rogues are a 'hassle' to shamans, we're pretty much made to be anti-caster. But here's another nice true thing that doesn't counter the fact that totems create a hassle for us. Basically, you could say PvP between shaman and rogue is a bit unbalanced. Specifically the totem bit, because rogues can destroy them with fair ease rather than having to put serious effort in it. So totems would indeed need some kind of buff. Which is exactly what I've been saying from post one.



My partner is usually specced and geared shockadin, though. Shamans with mana have a number of spells and abilities at their disposal that can turn the tide of battle. This is a more personal problem, but since I don't play with a epixxed out cookie cutter healer at my side, I like to play it safe.

That's a wrong definition if you ask me. Wowwiki goes with


Which is more logical anyway. The words say 'crowd CONTROL'. Slowing somebody is a form of control, if you ask me. And yes, you can choose to ignore totems if they're no detriment to you. But as a rogue we simply can't afford to let a poison cleansing totem live, to name one. A warlock can't afford to leave a tremor totem standing, to name another example.

Edit: Before you are going to tell me that that way you could even call buffs CC; No, I never actually call totems CC. I'm just using the term here to draw a comparison.



Alright, you got me here, I can't deny the fact that meleeing a totem will kill it 100% of the time. It's a bad choice of wording, I mean to say my current options aren't always ideal. It's that second sentence I've been on about though, as I've pointed out a couple of times.



Ahh, you were on about that one. The reason I included that sentence in my post is because your view of rogues killing totems didn't seem to be correct, you were overestimating rogues. I was (and am, without knowing a reason why it didn't work for you) convinced that if you had played a rogue against a shaman you would have in no time noticed that killing shaman totems isn't the cakewalk you took it for.

I have no intention of discrediting you, nor do I have a reason to. I had hoped you would have realized that wasn't what I was after. When you asked me about it, I couldn't think of a reason for you to think like you did. You just provided me with one, though. Looks like we both misunderstood eachother.

Edited, Sep 19th 2008 9:04pm by Mozared

I think we're actually edging towards that =P Like I just mentioned it seems both me and Gaudion misunderstood eachother... I just like the discussion, there's no personal feelings involved.

to be honest i would be perfectly happy if each totem had a 50% chance to stun the target for 2sec when it was hit, and could be improved through a talent, 2pts... first point would add 12% then the sec 25% this would give us an edge we need in pvp...

that 2 sec could be life or death for us.... enough time to get in a heal.... run fromt he fight...

to balance this increase the cost of totems, by like 15-20%.... i mean totems are cheap mana wise compared to other buffs...

this would also give us a half assed cc.... if combined with stoneclaw... 100% stun chance to stun the attacker...

That basically means I can stealth right into a shaman as any other target while he's surrounded by totems. Charming. Seems a bit horrible about the totem though... Compared to the relatively huge buffs some other totems give, an irritating pushback totem seems really weak.

Spell Pushback on healers + Small Damage. >.> That's why I use it.



Not even close to the same hassle. Rogues are IN CONTROL of the fight. Shamans are lucky to have 50% of the fight to even push a button to TRY to react to what a rogue has done. Imagine if a resto shaman could stun you AND disarm you (and you have no hand to hand skill). I doubt you'd consider that fair. But it's PRETTY DAMN CLOSE to what a rogue does to a casting shaman. Stun (poisons are stacking), more stun (still getting killed), start to cast... kick.... if I'm lucky I might have faked you out, but I probably CAN'T right now because I'm getting low at this point, and now a rogue can restart the battle ALL OVER again if he wants and start the stun cycle over.



What are these awesome abilities? Aside from the buffs we give other people, shamans really wouldn't have a place in arena. Who WANTS shamans in their arena teams? *hint* the answer is warriors and retadins for windfury *end hint* You know how many non warrios/retadins have asked me to arena? ZERO. But I get asked every other day by warriors and retadins for arena teams to be a windfury/heroism bot. A shaman has to hope HIS BUFFS stay on and are enough for the other team member(s) to carry him to a victory. If it comes down to Shaman vs Other class, other class just won 90% of the time.

Also, honestly on live. You can ignore a poison cleansing totem most of the time. It removes ONE poison every 5s (and it can resist -.-). At the rate a rogue puts poisons on me... I have a full stack before my totem pulses twice. So if you have 2 poisons (1 is 5 stack, 1 is 1 stack).... that means every 5 seconds I'll have 5 poisons on me instead of 6, then you hit me and I have 6 again. Unless I'm spamming poison cleansing on myself WITH a poison cleansing totem, I have no way of keeping up with how fast poisons are put on me. If I'm cleansing poisons, I can't cast heals. If I can't cast heals, I can't counter your dps (or your partners). So, remove poisons or heal myself?

This is why Shaman is a game of burst damage. We go in and pray the game is over in 30s. The longer the game, the less likely a shaman is to win. We're the least mobile healer. Our buffs don't move. No instant heals. No instant Hots. No fear (priests). No snare/root breaking (druids shifting, pally BoF, priest dispel). All we have is high armor, EASILY dispellable earth shield, easily destroyed non-mobile totems that aren't very effective defensively, and nature's guardian. Without Nature's Guardian NO RESTO SHAMAN would exist above 1800, I'm pretty sure.

I was just making the point that healers are invited for specific reasons. Shamans: windfury/heroism (pray you get lucky procs and destroy the other team). Disc Priest: Fear/Mana Burn/Healing/Kill yourself on their shield. Paladins: Blessing of Protection/Divine Shield/Fast Crit mana efficient healing/removes cc's. Druids... where to start, bash, feral charge, roots, cyclone, lifebloom (instant heal on dispel), rejuv/swiftmend combo.

On live, Shaman as a healer brings a lot less to a group than the other healers simply because our "attraction" and reason for being there.... is our totems. Our Totems are destroyed so incredibly fast in arena I sometimes stop casting them. I just cast windfury every 10s since that's how long the buff lasts... and I know it is destroyed as soon as I cast it. Earth Shield is gone before it can proc twice (sometimes before it procs once).

But I think that's why shaman is getting quite a bit of changes going into PTR (and WotLK) to try to make us more viable for pvp. Riptide (instant small heal/hot). Hex. Stoneclaw will protect our totems.... though I also feel this is the WRONG way to improve pvp viability since the two totems I USUALLY want protected are earthbind or tremor totem (ie both are earth.. so you can't use stoneclaw too). Hopefully they figure it out one day. lol

Did you just genuinely suggest that a GCD-absorbing Dispel will be the 'Bane of Rogues'?? Right now Shamans can dispel Rogue poisons in precisely the same way, in fact the only added advantage is against Warlocks and they are in as bad shape as Shamans. If this new cleanse is so deadly against Rogues then the current poison cleanse must be just as powerful. And it isnt.

Rogues can stack poisons faster than any Shaman ability can purge them without just standing there whacking Cure while your HP disappears. Come on mate, that's ridiculous.

Seriously, Shamans are gimp in the expansion. The meters prove it, the beta testers say it, the PTR testers (including myself) say it, and just pure common sense says it. You might not think so, but thats only because it isnt terribly important if you're right or not. You say you want to see it in action, I have, many have, trust us it's really not as nice as your Rogue thinks.

Anyhoo, my personal idea for totem protection is to have a stacking hit debuff. Every time one of your totems gets destroyed, the Shaman gains a 15 second buff, I dont care what its name is; basically, it confers to all other totems a 25% resistance to all attacks. Every time a totem dies from hostile fire, the buff stacks up again, maximum of four stacks.

In PvE it's irrelevant, in PvP it means people will have to think really carefully about which totems the destroy as they will eventually become immune to harm. It has a 15sec 'timer' on it so a clever opponent can just wait for your buff to run out, but that's ok. 15secs of bufftime is adequate for PvP and allows you to lay down more totems.

Edited, Sep 22nd 2008 9:52am by Sinstralis