I've been chewing on the idea of how to protect our totems without it being too OP. The three most common theme have been to change the names to prevent macro-killing, increase the health based on level or shaman health, or the killing of a totem to have a negative consequence to the killer. Changing the name of totems is VERY easy to overcome with an add-on or even creative writing of macros, so I feel this is a very poor way of protecting them. Increasing the health with shaman health is not a terrible idea, but finding the "right amount" to satisfy the shaman and the enemy would be challenging.
Negative consequences for killing totems seems to be the most appropriate form of protection. Think of us as "voodoo priests." We carry totems and call the powers of nature etc. Then you whack our extremely delicate religious icon that channels gods/elements ... and you don't suffer a consequence? -.- Pure silliness. Originally I thought totems should give different consequences based on the element of the totem you killed. I still think this is a very very good idea; however, it would end up being too powerful perhaps because they'd have to take a bit of time to look at maybe 4 totems to see if they wanted to kill them and which ones they would want to kill. At this point, no one would even waste time killing totems (which would make shamans happy) but there'd be no balance.
So instead of having all of the totems have consequences, give the shaman the ability to enter an elemental state (a "form" if you will). If you enter earth form, then destroying an earth totem has serious consequences (say... a 5-10s stun). If you enter fire form, then destroying a fire totem could cause 2k aoe damage around the totem perhaps. If you enter wind form, then destroying a wind totem would cause all enemies in a 40 yard radius to be slowed by 75% or snared? If you enter water form, destroying a water totem heals the party for 25% of max health or restores 50% of mana/rage/energy/runes?
I'm no developer and trying to balance it would be interesting. It doesn't stop there though because this could allow for some more balancing that shaman needs. On Beta, there is a lack of dps from elemental and enhance and a lack of hps from shaman with poor hpm. Earth form could be like a "defensive" stance for shaman whereas Fire Form could be like a berserker stance. Water form could be a "healing/regen" stance. Wind Form would be ... I don't know. Anything creative.
Shamans have been asking for a change to our mechanics. I think it would greatly improve all 3 trees of Shaman and the ability to be more reactive to situations instead of just spamming our 3 buttons (if we even have 3).
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There's one more option that you didn't mention, actually. My option.
What I suggested on this board quite some time ago is to have dispel resistance apply to totems. When you think about it logically, our totems are really no different than, say, a Priest's Power Word: Fortitude. It's a buff. It's a buff with a grounded radius, but a buff nonetheless. Our buffs just happen to be tangible in a physical form as such that they can be dispelled by every opponent in the game, even those that inherently lack dispels.
So if our totems are essentially "buffs" that can be dispelled by every class in the game... then give them dispel resistance. Nature's Grace gives our buffs, of which there are very few, 30% dispel resistance. Well, that's nice, but not every Shaman is Resto or wants to dip into Resto for the talent. So just make Nature's Grace not apply to totems, and give totems an innate 30% chance to be immune to destruction across the board. And it doesn't even change the system that much to begin with.
This accomodates the Shaman in making their totems slightly more survivable, makes them slightly harder to kill, and it's in line with the game's overall balance since dispel resistance for all classes is, with very few exceptions, a flat 30% across the board through talents.
Edited, Sep 14th 2008 6:10pm by Gaudion
What I suggested on this board quite some time ago is to have dispel resistance apply to totems. When you think about it logically, our totems are really no different than, say, a Priest's Power Word: Fortitude. It's a buff. It's a buff with a grounded radius, but a buff nonetheless. Our buffs just happen to be tangible in a physical form as such that they can be dispelled by every opponent in the game, even those that inherently lack dispels.
So if our totems are essentially "buffs" that can be dispelled by every class in the game... then give them dispel resistance. Nature's Grace gives our buffs, of which there are very few, 30% dispel resistance. Well, that's nice, but not every Shaman is Resto or wants to dip into Resto for the talent. So just make Nature's Grace not apply to totems, and give totems an innate 30% chance to be immune to destruction across the board. And it doesn't even change the system that much to begin with.
This accomodates the Shaman in making their totems slightly more survivable, makes them slightly harder to kill, and it's in line with the game's overall balance since dispel resistance for all classes is, with very few exceptions, a flat 30% across the board through talents.
Edited, Sep 14th 2008 6:10pm by Gaudion
True, a 30% "dodge" and 30% "magic resistance" for every totem. Though 30% feels too low still. lol That's still 2/3 (a little more) that are killed. 50% would be a bit better since they do ONLY have 5 Health. Hell, if I was running around in an arena with 5 health, I'd hope to have 90% dodge. lol
I like your idea Guadion.
I always thought making totems required to be attacked twice before destroyed would be a simple fix, but this idea seems more balanced.
Although I also kind of wish our totems kind of floated around us provided our buff and where not target able but hey that's just me =P
I always thought making totems required to be attacked twice before destroyed would be a simple fix, but this idea seems more balanced.
Although I also kind of wish our totems kind of floated around us provided our buff and where not target able but hey that's just me =P
jmfmb wrote:
Although I also kind of wish our totems kind of floated around us provided our buff and where not target able but hey that's just me =P
It's not just you. Totems are an interesting, unique mechanic, but if you invest enough time in a Shaman, the novelty starts to wear off and you begin to see the problems with them, not just in in PvP but in PvE as well.
In truth, I've been trying to talk myself away from my Shaman for a couple months now, but I never quite could just do it. I'm a player that invests a lot in concept. I can't ever just sit down and roll a character because class X is good at role Y in Z situation. The race, gender, and class all have to "gel" with me. And Shaman really did that for me. I loved my female draenei avatar and I really dug the idea of a heavily armored, nature-based healer. And even when things don't pan out, I will be the last be the last rat off of a sinking ship.
But after the recent pass of Shaman talents, not the least of which was the inexcusable violation of Enhancement by changing Spectral Transformation to a completely laughable totemic substitute, I've finally managed to swallow the fact that Blizzard is never going to change Shaman for the better.
Even making the argument that Resto Shaman/Warrior is a very strong 2v2, and Resto Shaman/Paladin/Warrior is a strong 3v3... even the most defiant of us has to realize that that's really all they have. And why is that? It actually has nothing to do with Shaman themselves. They're too easy to lock down, too easy to dispatch to warrent taking into the arena. And they can't do anything other than just try to survive and keep their DPS alive reactively, as opposed to Disc Priests and Resto Druids who can get into the fight actively, Mana Burning or CC-ing. That's the reason Priests and Druids synergize with more partners across the board in all brackets. To at least some degree, they are self-sufficient in that they serve some purpose in and of themselves. For a Shaman, such a function doesn't exist. The only thing that makes a Resto Shaman worth taking for any reason is Windfury for a heavily armored, two-handed meleeer. Really, if a Resto Shaman didn't have the Windfury buff, would any class take them into 2v2 or 3v3 as their healer? I wholeheartedly believe the answer to that is, "No."
So... I've rolled a Priest to permanently replace my Shaman. It's been a really long time since I rolled an alt, and having finally rolled a new healing class that I can invest myself in, it's helped me take another look at Shaman, and I just realize even more how much of an unnecessary hassle it is. We have to use Water Shield when Priests get their mana regen naturally through spirit/int stats and talents. We have to lay totems every pull of an instance, when as a Priest I just buff up PW:F every 30 minutes. As a Shaman I have no way to directly mitigate damage. Priest, PW:S. Shaman, no instant heal. Priest, Renew. No panic button, no CC. Priest, Psychic Scream. And so on and so forth...
I think it's something that's more or less impossible to understand unless someone has played a Shaman almost exclusively for so long and then switched to try another class that serves the same primary roll as the talent tree they chose.
Edited, Sep 14th 2008 11:20am by Gaudion
Quote:
Really, if a Resto Shaman didn't have the Windfury buff, would any class take them into 2v2 or 3v3 as their healer? I wholeheartedly believe the answer to that is, "No."
INFINITELY TRUE.
Well Gaudion, the thing is, while totems are buff, they take more than a simple button click to dispel. When a priest is fighting an enemy and wants to dispel something, he just hits dispel. If us rogues want to kill a totem, we'll have to either make a macro for it and hotkey that, and wait at each totem until we actually hit and kill it, or manually select a totem. Say what you want, but if we don't throw down a stun on the shaman, this does give you a brief window of opportunity.
I'm not sure how to buff totems a bit. I reckon they should remain somewhat easy to destroy, but I can bear with you when you say they're a tad useless at the moment.
I'm not sure how to buff totems a bit. I reckon they should remain somewhat easy to destroy, but I can bear with you when you say they're a tad useless at the moment.
Mozared wrote:
Well Gaudion, the thing is, while totems are buff, they take more than a simple button click to dispel. When a priest is fighting an enemy and wants to dispel something, he just hits dispel. If us rogues want to kill a totem, we'll have to either make a macro for it and hotkey that, and wait at each totem until we actually hit and kill it, or manually select a totem. Say what you want, but if we don't throw down a stun on the shaman, this does give you a brief window of opportunity.
Why yes, I hadn't thought of that. There's such a long wait between Rogue attacks, it must feel like you have to wait an eternity before you destroy that totem. And you're right, it's impossible to do without hitting a macro. Right-clicking is so yesterday. Plus those long cooldowns on Gouge and Kidney Shot... I guess you're really better off just leaving the totems alone.
Please. We both know that's not true.
What exactly is too long of a "brief" opportunity? A second? 1.5 seconds? It can't be any more than 1.8 seconds tops since that's the speed of your off-hand along with assumption that your main-hand is synched with it and can't cut some time off of that. So a Resto Shaman might get one Lesser Healing Wave off assuming you don't KS, Gouge, Blind, or have MN poison on them. And that they're willing to waste mana on totems they know you're going to destroy.
Furthermore, dispels (and your comparison) only work as you've suggested if (1.) the dispeller is already targetting the target he wants to dispel ('Cause no one other than people fighting Shaman have to deal with switching targets, amirite?) and the target has no (2.) dispel resistance or (3.) trash buffs to protect what you want to dispel. Anyone dispelling Shaman totems has to deal with none of those things. Point, click, and the totem you want dead is dead. Average scenario, you might have to wait .5-1 seconds before it does due to swing timers or some other such nonesense. Dispels also cost you a 1.5 second GCD. Oh, and as a Priest I really have yet to see anyone run out of range or get feared out of range of my PW:S (lawl totems). So really... yeah, all those things more or less balance each other out.
There is still zero justification for totems to be such an inherently weak mechanic in PvP, and, really, in the game as a whole.
Edited, Sep 14th 2008 10:37pm by Gaudion
Quote:
Well Gaudion, the thing is, while totems are buff, they take more than a simple button click to dispel. When a priest is fighting an enemy and wants to dispel something, he just hits dispel. If us rogues want to kill a totem, we'll have to either make a macro for it and hotkey that, and wait at each totem until we actually hit and kill it, or manually select a totem. Say what you want, but if we don't throw down a stun on the shaman, this does give you a brief window of opportunity.
Um... so something that only SOME classes can dispel vs buffs that ALL classes can destroy (totems) makes totems OP? Purges require a GCD too (just like destroying a totem). The only difference is that EVERY CLASS can destroy totems. Some can destroy totems without even using a GCD (Hunters and Locks).
The reasoning behind the frailty of totems is that our buffs are SO POWERFUL that they need to be frail. How is this the case when our buffs have been given almost entirely to other classes that DO NOT have frail buffs? I am missing the developers' logic. (*whisper* because there isn't any... *end whisper*)
Scholar
49 posts
Well...I always thought 5 hp was a rediculously small amount to give a totem any survivability in PvP. Since I spend most of my time alone doing PvE quests and killing, I didn't worry too much about it.
Then there is the fact that my NE hunter has been killed more than once by a Tauren Shammy wading through a crowd in AV while I was farming for honor to upgrade weapons and armor.
With the hunter getting a bit stale, I was feeling pretty good about rolling a Shaman. I got him to 34 this weekend, and really have enjoyed him. I liked the idea of a semi-melee class with the ability to give some buffs to party members and some limited healing ability. Granted, he's not the best of any of those things, but he seemed like a good all around multi-talented class.
That is, until I came to the forum today. Now I'm thinking, "WTF?".
So tell me...did I make a big mistake and waste a sh*t-load of time on a toon who is going to become cannon fodder?
Then there is the fact that my NE hunter has been killed more than once by a Tauren Shammy wading through a crowd in AV while I was farming for honor to upgrade weapons and armor.
With the hunter getting a bit stale, I was feeling pretty good about rolling a Shaman. I got him to 34 this weekend, and really have enjoyed him. I liked the idea of a semi-melee class with the ability to give some buffs to party members and some limited healing ability. Granted, he's not the best of any of those things, but he seemed like a good all around multi-talented class.
That is, until I came to the forum today. Now I'm thinking, "WTF?".
So tell me...did I make a big mistake and waste a sh*t-load of time on a toon who is going to become cannon fodder?
You did if you're hoping to do serious PvP (read: Arena) at 70. Otherwise, shamans are great in BGs, lots of fun in PvE. Don't sweat it.
I like both the totem protection ideas here -- dispel resistance and/or some blowback effect. Lets hope Blizz developers are reading the board....
I like both the totem protection ideas here -- dispel resistance and/or some blowback effect. Lets hope Blizz developers are reading the board....
13 posts
I liked the idea of movable totems. If the shaman was to wear them as any other class would wear a buff the it would make them dispellable but not susceptible to normal attacks. IE just like any other class.
We would be able to have up to four buffs at a time not including weapon enh, or shields.
Through simple manipulation of the mechanic our damaging totems could be more of a shield type of mechanic. (Face it searing totem, and magma totem don't do that much damage)If the damage they do cause was done as more of a reaction attack, or even as a useable charge that the shaman could control it would help us in pvp, as well as pve and we wouldn't have to constantly drop/pickup totems.
They could even keep the totems as they are with the short duration we get if they were to change them to move with us an not be targetable except by dispell.
We would be able to have up to four buffs at a time not including weapon enh, or shields.
Through simple manipulation of the mechanic our damaging totems could be more of a shield type of mechanic. (Face it searing totem, and magma totem don't do that much damage)If the damage they do cause was done as more of a reaction attack, or even as a useable charge that the shaman could control it would help us in pvp, as well as pve and we wouldn't have to constantly drop/pickup totems.
They could even keep the totems as they are with the short duration we get if they were to change them to move with us an not be targetable except by dispell.
Honestly while dispel resistance is cute, it would leave shamans only slightly better off than they are now. I think having a consequence to taking out the totem is the only way to make them balanced. If you kill a searing totem and that gives you -50% attack power for 15 sec, well now you have to think about killing that totem. If you are going to have a 50% armor reduction you are going to think twice about taking out a Stoneskin totem (not that any shaman would throw that crap down anyway). I can give more examples, but its really pointless, much like Gaudion has already said, just re-roll and call it a day.
Shamans need anti-CC/anti-snare/root other than a 2 minute trinket.
Eff the totem fixes and fix the core problem. Being CC'd to death.
Idiot Blizzard Devs.
Eff the totem fixes and fix the core problem. Being CC'd to death.
Idiot Blizzard Devs.
Quote:
Shamans need anti-CC/anti-snare/root other than a 2 minute trinket.
Eff the totem fixes and fix the core problem. Being CC'd to death.
Idiot Blizzard Devs.
Eff the totem fixes and fix the core problem. Being CC'd to death.
Idiot Blizzard Devs.
I know reading is hard, but did you read the topic? This whole thread had almost nothing to do with "Improved Earthbind." The purpose of the thread was to discuss that totems are too frail for the "amazing" and "unique" buffs they give.
So I had a thought and I was wandering what you guys thought, what if Totems could not be targeted like typical NPCs what if instead you had to place you cursor over the totem and it gave a different icon to appear as your cursor and if you click on it it would make you attack the totem and channel for 1 or 2 maybe 3 seconds and upon completion of the channeling bar the totem would be destroyed. Sure anyone can still destroy the totems but it would take the player some time to do so, it would prevent totems being destroyed from a range or macro killed by pets.
I got this idea from BRD in the Bar room full of Dwarves if you recall in one of the side rooms are some kegs you destroy this exact way to activate an event.
I was wandering what you guys thought, i know it might sound a little powerful but anyone can still kill the totems as long as in range, and since this is being forced upon us as our class defining ability why not make it a little bit of a hassel for other classes to dispatch it, look at paladins and druids, there is no way for anyone to force them out of a form or deactivate an aura, and Hunters and warlocks pets can only be dispatched by ki8lling or CCing there is no anti pet button that just makes them gone forever.
What do you guys think?
I got this idea from BRD in the Bar room full of Dwarves if you recall in one of the side rooms are some kegs you destroy this exact way to activate an event.
I was wandering what you guys thought, i know it might sound a little powerful but anyone can still kill the totems as long as in range, and since this is being forced upon us as our class defining ability why not make it a little bit of a hassel for other classes to dispatch it, look at paladins and druids, there is no way for anyone to force them out of a form or deactivate an aura, and Hunters and warlocks pets can only be dispatched by ki8lling or CCing there is no anti pet button that just makes them gone forever.
What do you guys think?
My pvp totem protection idea is this:
If a totem is destroyed by a player/pet within 30 seconds of being cast, a new copy of that totem spawns. New copy's duration is half of original.
Doesn't effect pve. Or heck, make it effect pve.
Gives totems a useful shelf life in pvp. Totems can still be destroyed. Enemies can still run out their range.
If this idea is too powerful for all shaman to have then make the Spectral Transformation substitute this talent. And add an improved talent option that gives a 50% chance of an additional copy totem. 2nd point gives 100% chance of additonal copy if destroyed within 30 seconds.
If this guarentees my totems are at least around for 30 seconds in Arena, I'll be happy.
If a totem is destroyed by a player/pet within 30 seconds of being cast, a new copy of that totem spawns. New copy's duration is half of original.
Doesn't effect pve. Or heck, make it effect pve.
Gives totems a useful shelf life in pvp. Totems can still be destroyed. Enemies can still run out their range.
If this idea is too powerful for all shaman to have then make the Spectral Transformation substitute this talent. And add an improved talent option that gives a 50% chance of an additional copy totem. 2nd point gives 100% chance of additonal copy if destroyed within 30 seconds.
If this guarentees my totems are at least around for 30 seconds in Arena, I'll be happy.
badlukchuk wrote:
My pvp totem protection idea is this:
If a totem is destroyed by a player/pet within 30 seconds of being cast, a new copy of that totem spawns. New copy's duration is half of original.
Doesn't effect pve. Or heck, make it effect pve.
Gives totems a useful shelf life in pvp. Totems can still be destroyed. Enemies can still run out their range.
If this idea is too powerful for all shaman to have then make the Spectral Transformation substitute this talent. And add an improved talent option that gives a 50% chance of an additional copy totem. 2nd point gives 100% chance of additonal copy if destroyed within 30 seconds.
If this guarentees my totems are at least around for 30 seconds in Arena, I'll be happy.
If a totem is destroyed by a player/pet within 30 seconds of being cast, a new copy of that totem spawns. New copy's duration is half of original.
Doesn't effect pve. Or heck, make it effect pve.
Gives totems a useful shelf life in pvp. Totems can still be destroyed. Enemies can still run out their range.
If this idea is too powerful for all shaman to have then make the Spectral Transformation substitute this talent. And add an improved talent option that gives a 50% chance of an additional copy totem. 2nd point gives 100% chance of additonal copy if destroyed within 30 seconds.
If this guarentees my totems are at least around for 30 seconds in Arena, I'll be happy.
While that's certainly an interesting idea, it would be overpowered on any totem with a cooldown less than 30 seconds. If Tremor Totem has no cooldown and is guaranteed to last 30 seconds then you can pretty much assume Tremor Totem will be up indefinitely. There has to be a balance between the ease with which we can keep them up and the ease with which they can be destroyed. Unfortunately, the current system heavily favors those trying to destroy them instead of the Shaman trying to keep them up. Yours would be the complete opposite, and that's no good either.
Personally, my two favorites are still having totem health scale with Shaman health and avoidance (dispel resistance) in that order.
How about this - give all totems a stun like stoneclaw -
If you are gonna kill the totem then there is a chance you will get a 3 second stun. Sounds like a decent enchancement talent or something.
Since they are merging so many totems, why not make this an overall talent to some extent.
It wont stop the people who really want to kill them, but at least there is a possible consequence to them taking them out.
Edited, Sep 17th 2008 2:49pm by lauisifer
If you are gonna kill the totem then there is a chance you will get a 3 second stun. Sounds like a decent enchancement talent or something.
Since they are merging so many totems, why not make this an overall talent to some extent.
It wont stop the people who really want to kill them, but at least there is a possible consequence to them taking them out.
Edited, Sep 17th 2008 2:49pm by lauisifer
How about this... Make the totems orbit around the shaman in the form of an ORB. or something similar. The totems would move with player and have the same HP and do the exact buffs they did before. For the totems to be destroyed the player would have to be attacked or be caught up in an AoE. One totem would be destroyed at RANDOM when the player is delt damage and there would be a 5 second cooldown until the next totem could be destroyed. The damage delt to the player would go to the totem first and the remaining balance to the player. IE. 569 damage in total would be... 5 damage to totem + 564 damage to player. I feel this would level the playing field because the totems would mobile and slightly harder to destroy.....
any thoughts?... anyone? Bueler..... Bueler.......
Edited, Sep 17th 2008 5:41pm by downandgoing
any thoughts?... anyone? Bueler..... Bueler.......
Edited, Sep 17th 2008 5:41pm by downandgoing
Here's my try, along the lines of what's been suggested above: A talent in the resto tree (maybe 3rd tier, maybe 2nd) of totem protection. Three minute cooldown: The next four totems you drop will be stun any attackers for two seconds. (There should be no DR on the stuns, since they're avoidable.)
If our totems were mobile, unkillable, or automatically stunned, it may be too much. (Try being a lock surviving an enhancer if you can't kill the tremor totem and it moves with him.) But if we got to create a penalty for downing them every few minutes....it'd be sort of our beast within. Once (or twice) per match we could really go all out with totems and not worry about them just getting blithely wanded away. Basically, given that tremor lasts two minutes, you would have 2/3 of the time a renewable fear ward that causes whoever breaks it to be stunned. That's quite strong. Really need that mana infusion because you've been drained or mana burned? Activate your cd and drop mana spring. Rogue on you? Drop poison cleansing and if he wants to knock it away during the stunlock, now he's stunned.
Fiddle with the stun time, the cd (but I think it has to have a cd), but I think this would work fine. Most serious PvP shammies of all specs could get it but have to sacrifice a bit elsewhere. PvE ones don't need to worry.
Edited, Sep 17th 2008 6:43pm by tuskerdu
If our totems were mobile, unkillable, or automatically stunned, it may be too much. (Try being a lock surviving an enhancer if you can't kill the tremor totem and it moves with him.) But if we got to create a penalty for downing them every few minutes....it'd be sort of our beast within. Once (or twice) per match we could really go all out with totems and not worry about them just getting blithely wanded away. Basically, given that tremor lasts two minutes, you would have 2/3 of the time a renewable fear ward that causes whoever breaks it to be stunned. That's quite strong. Really need that mana infusion because you've been drained or mana burned? Activate your cd and drop mana spring. Rogue on you? Drop poison cleansing and if he wants to knock it away during the stunlock, now he's stunned.
Fiddle with the stun time, the cd (but I think it has to have a cd), but I think this would work fine. Most serious PvP shammies of all specs could get it but have to sacrifice a bit elsewhere. PvE ones don't need to worry.
Edited, Sep 17th 2008 6:43pm by tuskerdu
tuskerdu wrote:
Here's my try, along the lines of what's been suggested above: A talent in the resto tree (maybe 3rd tier, maybe 2nd) of totem protection. Three minute cooldown: The next four totems you drop will be stun any attackers for two seconds. (There should be no DR on the stuns, since they're avoidable.)
Most serious PvP shammies of all specs could get it but have to sacrifice a bit elsewhere. PvE ones don't need to worry.
Most serious PvP shammies of all specs could get it but have to sacrifice a bit elsewhere. PvE ones don't need to worry.
This cannot be. Whatever fix is implemented to make totems more survivable needs to be innate. Totems are so core to the Shaman class that you would be, without question, pigionholing them into certain specs by putting the talent X points down in Y tree. Even if it were on the first tier it would still cost too much. We don't need talents or goofy mechanics or cooldowns to make totems useful. Totems should be useful in and of themselves for all specs at all times.
Have to agree with Guadion, Totems are a problem that all shaman share in PvP. I like the idea of stunning totems don't get me wrong but I don't think your idea is really anything that would help any spec well unless maybe the cool down was drastically changed (Or maybe I read it wrong I dunno). To be blunt totems are quite powerful and I can understand why Blizzard has made them also gimpy. I think (and I think Guadion is on same page as me) it is not that I think Totems should be indestructible, this would not create balance there is a reason why warlocks kill our tremor totem as soon as possible dual a lock buddy and tell him not to kill your tremor totem you might be surprised as to how helpful it is when ignored.
On paper Totems sound quite nice, shamans basically get 4 super buffs for himself and his teammates to dispel negative affects (tremor, cleanse poison, grounding. and soon earth bind), increase party member damage drastically (windfury), or hinder your opponents (fire totems and earth bind). In reality totems are an out of date concept. We get little to no affect out of them since just about anyone can dispatch them with ease before they even take affect (with the exception of windfury totem which we lose in the expansion and so far earth bind can be almost completely ignored).
In a perfect world Shaman would be able to lay 4 totems at once and all of them would work similar to the way windfury totem works so we can get some use out of them. But as long as blizzard feels to keep totems as they are and make it so our core abilities and tools are all leashed on to the current totem system shaman survivability will always be lower then the other classes in a pvp atmosphere. Just imagine if rogues Evasion and Cloak of Shadows where leashed to a totem, they would have no way of avoiding there deaths like they do now because you would simply kill there totem turn to them and odds are they are almost dead already that is why they used there avoidance abilities.
Maybe one day blizzard will think of something to make totems work in PvP or just continue ignoring the issue until the game expires, at least enemies in PvE don't macro stomp our totems so we can have fun there.
On paper Totems sound quite nice, shamans basically get 4 super buffs for himself and his teammates to dispel negative affects (tremor, cleanse poison, grounding. and soon earth bind), increase party member damage drastically (windfury), or hinder your opponents (fire totems and earth bind). In reality totems are an out of date concept. We get little to no affect out of them since just about anyone can dispatch them with ease before they even take affect (with the exception of windfury totem which we lose in the expansion and so far earth bind can be almost completely ignored).
In a perfect world Shaman would be able to lay 4 totems at once and all of them would work similar to the way windfury totem works so we can get some use out of them. But as long as blizzard feels to keep totems as they are and make it so our core abilities and tools are all leashed on to the current totem system shaman survivability will always be lower then the other classes in a pvp atmosphere. Just imagine if rogues Evasion and Cloak of Shadows where leashed to a totem, they would have no way of avoiding there deaths like they do now because you would simply kill there totem turn to them and odds are they are almost dead already that is why they used there avoidance abilities.
Maybe one day blizzard will think of something to make totems work in PvP or just continue ignoring the issue until the game expires, at least enemies in PvE don't macro stomp our totems so we can have fun there.
Seems to me that the Totem idea was conceived before PvP got solid, as such it sounds ludicrous to me that some people still can argue that they are perfect in their original design. To me, it looks like totems where mostly designed with PvE in mind.
I actually had someone tell me that playing as an enhance shaman was a 3 step victory against almost any class, which is such an egregious oversimplification that I was basically stunned for 3 seconds irl. I run into that a lot it seems like, lots of people think that totems are OP. There are a lot of people out there that think totems are teh OP shiz, maybe just because what they see in PvE, where totems shine.
I like the ideas I've seen here to make them more viable PvP. As I recall originally, weren't Shaman designed to be the opposite side of the coin of Paladins? Basically what some people want is for totems to act like Auras, but that would be stepping on toes wouldn't it? Not that I really mind, but then you'd have Paladins mad because we have better auras then them with out any balancing. With as many good, workable ideas as you people have come up with, you'd think the Devs could work something out, or at least make something nice, or at least share with us their line of thought.
What I will hate from now until forever, is that if my fire totems (not fire elemental) kill something before I tag it, it doesn't count as me killing it. My fire totems do not follow me around, I can not tell them who to attack,and one of them is basically a grenade. They are spells-NOT pets, and should not follow all the same rules as pets. What is the point of a AoE if I can't use it to wipe out half a low level instance at once? Having to tag all 20-30 mobs defeats the purpose of the AoE.
I actually had someone tell me that playing as an enhance shaman was a 3 step victory against almost any class, which is such an egregious oversimplification that I was basically stunned for 3 seconds irl. I run into that a lot it seems like, lots of people think that totems are OP. There are a lot of people out there that think totems are teh OP shiz, maybe just because what they see in PvE, where totems shine.
I like the ideas I've seen here to make them more viable PvP. As I recall originally, weren't Shaman designed to be the opposite side of the coin of Paladins? Basically what some people want is for totems to act like Auras, but that would be stepping on toes wouldn't it? Not that I really mind, but then you'd have Paladins mad because we have better auras then them with out any balancing. With as many good, workable ideas as you people have come up with, you'd think the Devs could work something out, or at least make something nice, or at least share with us their line of thought.
What I will hate from now until forever, is that if my fire totems (not fire elemental) kill something before I tag it, it doesn't count as me killing it. My fire totems do not follow me around, I can not tell them who to attack,and one of them is basically a grenade. They are spells-NOT pets, and should not follow all the same rules as pets. What is the point of a AoE if I can't use it to wipe out half a low level instance at once? Having to tag all 20-30 mobs defeats the purpose of the AoE.
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This cannot be. Whatever fix is implemented to make totems more survivable needs to be innate. Totems are so core to the Shaman class that you would be, without question, pigionholing them into certain specs by putting the talent X points down in Y tree. Even if it were on the first tier it would still cost too much. We don't need talents or goofy mechanics or cooldowns to make totems useful. Totems should be useful in and of themselves for all specs at all times.
How would that be pidgeonholing exactly? Your not forced to take it, and its more of a psychological talent rather than anything else really. Most oponents that know anything if at all about shamans would assume that if you are PVP'ing that you would be spec'ed for that talent as it is valuable, and it would cause most people to avoid killing our totems in fear that you specced like that.
It doenst fix the class but it would stear people away from taking a whack at your totem. That is the point.
Think of totems like a fire mage, you gain a lot of damage by speccing fire, but you become very squishy in the process. You gain a lot from dropping a totem and in return your totem is very squishy. If you want more durability in your totem, then would you exchange it for some of the buff it provides? When a mage specs frost they loose quite a bit of damage, but in exchange they have much better survivability.
Quite personally, I dont mind that my totems are flimsy, people waste the time taking a whack at it when they could be hitting me. If they wanna waste their dps on my totem then by all means go ahead, I will just drop another.
After reading this post, Im starting to think more and more what is the point to complaining? The negative consequence is that it wastes time to kill your totem and instead the person could be hitting you. You just gave yourself a few valuable seconds to kill the other person if they are stupid enough to waste time and try and take a totem out.
lauisifer wrote:
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This cannot be. Whatever fix is implemented to make totems more survivable needs to be innate. Totems are so core to the Shaman class that you would be, without question, pigionholing them into certain specs by putting the talent X points down in Y tree. Even if it were on the first tier it would still cost too much. We don't need talents or goofy mechanics or cooldowns to make totems useful. Totems should be useful in and of themselves for all specs at all times.
How would that be pidgeonholing exactly? Your not forced to take it, and its more of a psychological talent rather than anything else really. Most oponents that know anything if at all about shamans would assume that if you are PVP'ing that you would be spec'ed for that talent as it is valuable, and it would cause most people to avoid killing our totems in fear that you specced like that.
I don't think you quite realize how necessary totems are in PvP. As poorly as Shaman perform already, if they refused to lay Tremor Totem, Grounding Totem, Poison Cleansing Totem, or Disease Cleansing Totem (once Death Knights show up), their already shoddy resistance to debuffs and CC's would be multiplied tenfold. Shaman have to lay totems...
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It doenst fix the class but it would stear people away from taking a whack at your totem. That is the point.
... and their opponents have to destroy them. A Warlock that doesn't feel like destroying a Tremor Totem might as well just sit down and wait for an Enhancement Shaman to kill him. There is honestly nothing we could do to totems that would keep people from destroying them, but if they have to be detroyed, it should at least take slightly more work or confer some kind of penalty.
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Think of totems like a fire mage, you gain a lot of damage by speccing fire, but you become very squishy in the process. You gain a lot from dropping a totem and in return your totem is very squishy. If you want more durability in your totem, then would you exchange it for some of the buff it provides? When a mage specs frost they loose quite a bit of damage, but in exchange they have much better survivability.
Your analogy sucks.
Don't think of totems like a Mage's fire spells. Think of totems as the utility spells like Blink, Mana Shield, Counter Spell, Polymorph, etc. The spells that all Mages use regardless of spec, because they can easily cause damage by being Frost in the same way that an Enhancement Shaman can do melee damage if he's not specced Elemental for lightning damage. But they need those utility spells to succeed no matter what they spec.
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Quite personally, I dont mind that my totems are flimsy, people waste the time taking a whack at it when they could be hitting me. If they wanna waste their dps on my totem then by all means go ahead, I will just drop another.
Then you don't PvP seriously and your opinion on the matter is invalid, because we are discussing their use in PvP, not PvE.
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After reading this post, Im starting to think more and more what is the point to complaining?
Here, at least, I agree with you. There is no point in complaining because Blizzard is never going to fix totem survivability. It's not even on their back burner. So the best thing to do is either make your peace with it or re-roll, and I'm glad I finally did the latter.
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