After doing Combat Swords for a while, i decided to give mutilate a try. Here is the WoW Web stat reports. Other rogues in the raid where also trying new weapons out, but full combat.
Im Beezi, from Thunderlord, Black Axe Clan
http://wowwebstats.com/of4f5xiyg2xlg
So not bad at all really. I think i got about the same as combat swords with duel S2 blades with mongoose.
As Mutilate i was weilding S2 main hand Shanker no enchant, and OH badge mutilator with mongoose.
Reason why is because im going to replace the main hand sometime soon.
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Mutilate Rogue and Raids.Follow
Your rogues are ******* terrible.
1300 DPS is the max on Morogrim? That's the definition of terrible, right there.
1300 DPS is the max on Morogrim? That's the definition of terrible, right there.
No offense, but your raiding rogues need to work on uptime on target. Those presence numbers are low. Tell 'em to stop dying already!
1300 on Tidewalker with t5/badge gear (from your armory) is a bit low compared to combat, but I'd say not too bad for muti in a raid setting. With all that physical DPS in your raid, your personal DPS will suffer a bit for the benefit of the rDPS of course. It could be higher, but check the spreadsheet for comparison and make sure your rotations are optimal.
Good luck on the next attempt on the Lady!
1300 on Tidewalker with t5/badge gear (from your armory) is a bit low compared to combat, but I'd say not too bad for muti in a raid setting. With all that physical DPS in your raid, your personal DPS will suffer a bit for the benefit of the rDPS of course. It could be higher, but check the spreadsheet for comparison and make sure your rotations are optimal.
Good luck on the next attempt on the Lady!
I think my optimum dps on the spread was 1500-1600 doing combat swords.
Hmmm, ill try and break hit optimum. Im going to go back to combat once i get a new main hand sword.
Hmmm, ill try and break hit optimum. Im going to go back to combat once i get a new main hand sword.
Morogrim is tank n' spank as far as rogues are concerned. I'd see the numbers from fights like Vashj or Solarian before I set my heart on Mutilate.
Jophiel wrote:
I managed to be both retarded and entertaining.
Demea wrote:
Morogrim is tank n' spank as far as rogues are concerned.
But isn't that the point? The fights where we just stand there and wail away are useful for pure DPS comparisons where there are fewer variables (like movement) to taint the sample numbers. Making it easier to compare actual DPS to the spreadsheet ideals.
But, of course, they're stupid-easy fights for us and nobody should expect to do those numbers all the time. I'm shocked if I pull half my usual DPS over a whole Karathres fight (I'm usually on Caribdis duty).
yeah i was on carbidis duty also. Well i respeced back to shadowstep for the sake of not getting raped in arenas.
The guild is going to raid SSC today, try and do 5/6 so we have a full Vashj day. So ill go combat swords.
Ill post that WWS if im able to.
The guild is going to raid SSC today, try and do 5/6 so we have a full Vashj day. So ill go combat swords.
Ill post that WWS if im able to.
TherionSaysWhat wrote:
Demea wrote:
Morogrim is tank n' spank as far as rogues are concerned.
But isn't that the point? The fights where we just stand there and wail away are useful for pure DPS comparisons where there are fewer variables (like movement) to taint the sample numbers. Making it easier to compare actual DPS to the spreadsheet ideals.
But, of course, they're stupid-easy fights for us and nobody should expect to do those numbers all the time. I'm shocked if I pull half my usual DPS over a whole Karathres fight (I'm usually on Caribdis duty).
Exactly. Tank n' spank fights are great for flexing your WWS e-peen, but the fights that do require lots of movement and target rotation are simply more forgiving for certain specs (read: Combat).
Add to that the fact that Combat will out-DPS all the other specs on tank n' spank fights anyways, and it becomes a rather silly argument.
Jophiel wrote:
I managed to be both retarded and entertaining.
I see what you mean. Guess from my perspective, the tank 'n spank fights are just easier to compare builds. I don't really look at anything about this game in the sense of e-peen flexing. Mainly as I have no e-peen to flex.
But you make a good underlying point, overall performance isn't just a toons DPS output. There's more to being a good player than melting faces. ;)
Cheers.
*edit: L2spell
Edited, Sep 9th 2008 4:37pm by TherionSaysWhat
But you make a good underlying point, overall performance isn't just a toons DPS output. There's more to being a good player than melting faces. ;)
Cheers.
*edit: L2spell
Edited, Sep 9th 2008 4:37pm by TherionSaysWhat
Honestly, if the boss goes down, it doesn't matter what spec you are.
zepoodle wrote:
Honestly, if the boss goes down, it doesn't matter what spec you are.
No. Stop. Do not pass go. Do no collect $200.
If I had to raid with all poorly spec'd players, I'd probably eat a gun barrel before any bosses went down. Not to mention that you'd have to seriously out-gear the content you're doing for this to be feasible.
Of course, if you bring along one rogue with 0/0/61 while everybody else is raid spec'd, it doesn't matter how many bosses you down; that rogue still fails at WoW.
Jophiel wrote:
I managed to be both retarded and entertaining.
Specs, skill and gear make downing bosses faster, easier, and more fun for everyone. But so long as your spec, skill and gear is of a sufficient level to actually kill a boss, the rest just makes the process more efficient. So long as the boss actually goes down and people get their loot, is there any point to insisting that the raid's rogue suddenly become better at the game? Just let him linger on the fringes of competence and avoid the edrama and ******** on gchat. He'll eventually have to get better.
So long as you get the job done, s'what I'm saying. If a rogue is clearly wiping the raid and you're all failing because he can't get his **** together, that's a different story. If the rogue blows chunks but the raid is still succeeding, insisting he optimise his spec is just kinda pointless.
So long as you get the job done, s'what I'm saying. If a rogue is clearly wiping the raid and you're all failing because he can't get his **** together, that's a different story. If the rogue blows chunks but the raid is still succeeding, insisting he optimise his spec is just kinda pointless.
zepoodle wrote:
Specs, skill and gear make downing bosses faster, easier, and more fun for everyone. But so long as your spec, skill and gear is of a sufficient level to actually kill a boss, the rest just makes the process more efficient. So long as the boss actually goes down and people get their loot, is there any point to insisting that the raid's rogue suddenly become better at the game? Just let him linger on the fringes of competence and avoid the edrama and ******** on gchat. He'll eventually have to get better.
So long as you get the job done, s'what I'm saying. If a rogue is clearly wiping the raid and you're all failing because he can't get his **** together, that's a different story. If the rogue blows chunks but the raid is still succeeding, insisting he optimise his spec is just kinda pointless.
So long as you get the job done, s'what I'm saying. If a rogue is clearly wiping the raid and you're all failing because he can't get his **** together, that's a different story. If the rogue blows chunks but the raid is still succeeding, insisting he optimise his spec is just kinda pointless.
Yeah, that totally works. Which is why people spec whatever the hell they want on Brutallus, right?
Please, think before you open your mouth more more stupidity spills out.
People min/max for a reason, and it's not to "make things easier," it's to make sure they actually get bosses down.
BTW, the rogue's JOB is to do as much DPS as he can. He's not worth anything if he's not doing it to the best of his ability.
There's a big difference between me keeping my ShS spec for a Kara/Gruul/SSC/TK/MH/first 5 in BT, but completely another for me to keep that same build for the last 4 in BT and SWP.
Quote:
So long as the boss actually goes down and people get their loot, is there any point to insisting that the raid's rogue suddenly become better at the game? Just let him linger on the fringes of competence and avoid the edrama and ******** on gchat. He'll eventually have to get better.
This doesn't make sense because you said:
Quote:
So long as you get the job done, s'what I'm saying. If a rogue is clearly wiping the raid and you're all failing because he can't get his **** together, that's a different story. If the rogue blows chunks but the raid is still succeeding, insisting he optimise his spec is just kinda pointless.
Which will always eventually happen, so why put it off? A Rogue doing less than optimal DPS makes the fight longer which:
1. Could be lethal(Enrage Timer)
2. Means the tanks have to tank longer and take more damage
3. Means the healers have to heal more
4. Means the other DPS have to make up for the incompetent Rogues DPS
Sorry ifI don't feel like making 24 other people's jobs harder because that one rogue wants to play ShS. Its just plain stupid.
No, you guys aren't reading me right. If a rogue goes into Brutallus and wipes the raid because he's shadowstep then he's not doing his job, is he? If he goes in as shadowstep and Brutallus dies anyway (not that this is something ever likely to happen because Brutallus is a particularly unforgiving example) what the hell is the problem? Brutallus is dead. Who cares if the rogue was **** if you're winning anyway?
You guys have always said at some point or another that it's acceptable to do Kara and most heroics as shadowstep because such things are so easy that the spec doesn't have to be optimal. How is what I'm saying different from that? I'm telling you that sub-optimal specs are acceptable so long as the fight will accept sub-optimal specs. That's obviously not fcking true of Brutallus, he's the worst example you could possibly pick for trying out sub-optimal specs. You cannot down Brutallus with a sub-optimal spec. Ergo, you must have an optimal spec in order to down Brutallus! Because if you could down Brutallus by mashing your face on the keyboard with no talent points whatsoever, Brutallus would not require an optimal spec!
Do you guys get what I mean? I said "as long as the boss goes down it doesn't matter what spec you are." You all replied as if I was advising people to go in with stupid specs. I was just saying that it was tolerable so long as the God damn objective was completed. By saying "but people can't kill Brutallus as shadowstep" you're completely dodging the point, because the fact that the people aren't managing to kill Brutallus is breaching ******* Proposition A, which is "as long as the boss goes down". If it was like, *******, Chess or something, you wouldn't give a kite-flying **** what spec they were or if they played with their goddamn lubricated *****.
I know you guys have already committed by calling me stupid so you can't really un-call me stupid now, but I hope you at least understand what I mean while you respond with today's list of inventive and humourous insults.
You guys have always said at some point or another that it's acceptable to do Kara and most heroics as shadowstep because such things are so easy that the spec doesn't have to be optimal. How is what I'm saying different from that? I'm telling you that sub-optimal specs are acceptable so long as the fight will accept sub-optimal specs. That's obviously not fcking true of Brutallus, he's the worst example you could possibly pick for trying out sub-optimal specs. You cannot down Brutallus with a sub-optimal spec. Ergo, you must have an optimal spec in order to down Brutallus! Because if you could down Brutallus by mashing your face on the keyboard with no talent points whatsoever, Brutallus would not require an optimal spec!
Do you guys get what I mean? I said "as long as the boss goes down it doesn't matter what spec you are." You all replied as if I was advising people to go in with stupid specs. I was just saying that it was tolerable so long as the God damn objective was completed. By saying "but people can't kill Brutallus as shadowstep" you're completely dodging the point, because the fact that the people aren't managing to kill Brutallus is breaching ******* Proposition A, which is "as long as the boss goes down". If it was like, *******, Chess or something, you wouldn't give a kite-flying **** what spec they were or if they played with their goddamn lubricated *****.
I know you guys have already committed by calling me stupid so you can't really un-call me stupid now, but I hope you at least understand what I mean while you respond with today's list of inventive and humourous insults.
i get what you're saying. I understand but as theo and the others have said: it's a rogue's job to DPS. If we can't DPS why even take us to a raid ? Any other DPS class is more usefull due to raid buffs or whatever.
Anyways, hold on butterfly, the storm is almost over !
Anyways, hold on butterfly, the storm is almost over !
The point to a proper Raid spec is; why would i bring a rogue with me who doesnt spec properly, does less damage which in the end, slows the raid progression thru trash AND boss kills? I wouldnt. Thats wasting mine and 23 other peoples time. If we have 3.5 hrs in BT, i want to kill 5 bosses not 3 because we dont have enough dps to kill a raid boss fast enough on enrage timer.
So, again why bring anyone along not willing to spec to at least try and seem to be helping instead of bing a complete and utter failure at ther class?
I kick rogues till they respec and anyone who doesnt (for any classss for that matter) is a fool.
EDIT:
OP, Tell Mathioso to drop Akil'zon's Talonblade from MH please. Thats just pure fail in everything I've ever learned about a rogue. And fix his spec also.
Edited, Sep 10th 2008 11:09am by Contalyst
So, again why bring anyone along not willing to spec to at least try and seem to be helping instead of bing a complete and utter failure at ther class?
I kick rogues till they respec and anyone who doesnt (for any classss for that matter) is a fool.
EDIT:
OP, Tell Mathioso to drop Akil'zon's Talonblade from MH please. Thats just pure fail in everything I've ever learned about a rogue. And fix his spec also.
Edited, Sep 10th 2008 11:09am by Contalyst
zepoodle wrote:
No, you guys aren't reading me right.
Yes, at least I am. You're just speaking in ******, so forgive some posters if they don't understand you.
zepoodle wrote:
Who cares if the rogue was **** if you're winning anyway?
It would be great if rogues didn't have to spec optimally do do their best DPS. I would get on my knees and praise God for smiting the evil wizard at Blizzard (lolirhymed) who made there be "optimal" specs.
The sad truth is that that's not the case. God hasn't busted out his rank eleventy-bazillion chain lightning. So we're stuck speccing optimally.
And, BTW, when I've said it's OK to spec ShS for Kara, I've said that you have to be geared. I don't think it's acceptable to do Kara as anything but combat until you're at least to Vashj/Kael, and I tell my guildies that when they want me to go on their scrub Kara runs.
zepoodle wrote:
Because if you could down Brutallus by mashing your face on the keyboard with no talent points whatsoever, Brutallus would not require an optimal spec!
Yeah, and the number of fights in this game that have soft enrages is ridiculous. When you have X amount of time to kill a boss, guess what? If that rogue isn't specced optimally, he's just putting your group in more danger, just like a priest that comes to raid specced disc and thinking he can PW:S tanks and melee that get threat to mitigate damage, or that hunter that comes specced MM thinking that "TSA IZ A GR8 GRP BUFF GUIZ LOL".
It's stupid, obtuse, and completely the wrong attitude to have. If you're letting people spec sub-optimally, the best you'll ever do is maybe get Illidan down.
I'll not even dignify your replies with point by point analysis because I answered every one of them in my last post. Try reading it again.
If you still don't understand, that's fine; you're not in my guild, so I'm not one to suffer from your apparent lack of concern for your guildmates. You can argue your "boss dead" point until your fingers fall off, but it still won't make it valid.
If you still don't understand, that's fine; you're not in my guild, so I'm not one to suffer from your apparent lack of concern for your guildmates. You can argue your "boss dead" point until your fingers fall off, but it still won't make it valid.
Jophiel wrote:
I managed to be both retarded and entertaining.
Im going to put my daggers away for a bit, since i have new loot and such to mess with. As the other rogues stated, go the proper spec for the raid. I just felt like going mutilate again because it was the spec i lvld and pvpd with till about 68. It does ok dmg, but lack of energy regain kinda screws up a "set rotation" but 3 and up cps is what i go by. Only reason why i went mutilate is that i wanted to pvp and raid without having to spend 100g a week again. Been doing that for 5 months now.
BTW, either im playing nubs but people dont turn there backs away from me anymore, maybe they are use to ShS that they forgot rogues do it from behind.
Well im going to respec combat swords, do a 4s 5r rotation and try and be king of deeps.
BTW, either im playing nubs but people dont turn there backs away from me anymore, maybe they are use to ShS that they forgot rogues do it from behind.
Well im going to respec combat swords, do a 4s 5r rotation and try and be king of deeps.
Quote:
Well im going to respec combat swords, do a 4s 5r rotation and try and be king of deeps.
There is no try, only do.
Instead of thinking about it as, "If the boss is down, there's no problem," think about it as, "What's the chance we down the boss?" Every less-than-optimal spec decreases your chance to down the boss further and further. Why would any competent guild take a player who is decreasing their chance to down a boss, compared to the other literally hundreds of other highly-geared rogues on any server that are actually specced and geared properly?
A big concern for going Mutilate, too, is you end up gearing, gemming, and spending your DKP on a sub-par spec. Then when it comes to finally getting to the point where it's clear that one person is the weak link, and they *need* to respec, they also need to entirely re-gem, and possibly re-gear to some extent.
Mutilate (or any sub-par spec) for ***** and giggles? Sure. For progression? No.
A big concern for going Mutilate, too, is you end up gearing, gemming, and spending your DKP on a sub-par spec. Then when it comes to finally getting to the point where it's clear that one person is the weak link, and they *need* to respec, they also need to entirely re-gem, and possibly re-gear to some extent.
Mutilate (or any sub-par spec) for ***** and giggles? Sure. For progression? No.
Look, that was seriously just an off-hand comment I made before running out the door. I didn't really expect you guys to blow it up in my face and I don't want to ***** about it.
Zepoodle, your comment about them having committed is exactly right, just walk away from this one so they can stop attempting to money-shot all over a post that really isn't a big deal.
zepoodle wrote:
Look, that was seriously just an off-hand comment I made before running out the door. I didn't really expect you guys to blow it up in my face and I don't want to ***** about it.
Just an offhand comment that you defended with a wall of text big enough to one-shot a clothie?
I'm basking in the inherent irony.
Jophiel wrote:
I managed to be both retarded and entertaining.
Demea wrote:
zepoodle wrote:
Look, that was seriously just an off-hand comment I made before running out the door. I didn't really expect you guys to blow it up in my face and I don't want to ***** about it.
Just an offhand comment that you defended with a wall of text big enough to one-shot a clothie?
I'm basking in the inherent irony.
It was really about five lines.
But anyway.
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