So, I've been milling over some things in my mind while trying to keep myself as up to date as possible on the Paladin changes for Wrath, and I decided I'd like to share with the board here some of my thoughts/questions and maybe get some insight. Sorry, but it's a decently lengthy read :)
1) Seals and Judgements will scale with spell power and attack power, our new ability Shield of Righteousness is based on Shield Block Value (both affected by strength), and it appears strength will be very prevalent on tanking gear: how big will Divine Strength be as a tanking talent?
2) Benediction: will this talent be as much of a must have now that Judging will not remove the Seal from the Paladin? We’ll be Sealing up much less, although probably still Judging the same amount.
Thinking again, we’ll still be buffing ourselves with Sanctuary (most likely - due to the new mana regen feature) or Kings, so even though Might will be a beneficial spell for a Paladin tank now, I don’t see us giving ourselves Might making Benediction still the better choice over Imp BoM for progressing down the tree.
3) Will Seal of Vengeance/Corruption be THE tanking Seal? Every Seal/Judgement combo will deal some damage now, though the current damaging Judgements will deal more damage then non-damaging ones. So this means even if you Seal Vengeance/Corruption you will still have, albeit smaller, a JoR type effect on your initial Judgement while also having the advantage of starting your stacks earlier. Also these Seals will stack their effect on every swing now, not a chance on hit.
4) Damage range increased to 35% and below for Hammer of Wrath, now recently also made instant cast, and Holy Wrath buffed to instant cast, but range reduced. I think these are going to be huge. Hammer of Wrath is a no brainer: particularly great because it’s longer fights that at least I as a Prot Paladin seem to have the hardest time with threat. We can use this now earlier to keep up threat late in a fight. And Holy Wrath being instant makes it actually, you know, usable. For AOE undead/demon fights this will be a large boost to our threat. Anyone NOT as impressed with these changes as I am?
5) Avenger’s Shield cast reduced to .5 sec. Now usable during combat in a larger number of situations. I love it! Daze duration increased and damage reduced. I don’t care so much about the damage as it will now be scaling with AP as well, but the daze increase I’m not all that happy about. Mostly this comes from the fact that on pulls larger than 3 the targets unaffected by Avenger’s Shield come much faster then those hit with AS, and healers have a tendency to jump the gun a bit. I know this is countered with Consecration, but then you have the DPS who also start in. They see the primary target is too far away but want to keep their damage up and start in on the targets not hit by AS. It bugs the hell outta me, but no matter how many times you tell them not to, it still happens. Targets will take even longer to reach you … I don’t know. Seems the overeager problem will be compounded a bit.
6) I’m looking at Holy Shield and it being buffed in the number of charges it has base, as well as CD reduced. I’ve read others say improving Holy Shield for more charges will no longer be mandatory. However, Improved Holy Shield also increases its damage (and in so doing, its threat). Also during AE pulls you can lose Holy Shield charges before the CD is up. There was also the issue of lag/reaction time in refreshing Holy Shield when its duration and CD were the same. I don’t see these changes to Holy Shield changing the way we use/spec at all, but see it as a huge buff in many ways.
7) Looking at the Prot tree, I’m thinking that up to Avenger’s Shield the only real change in talents taken will be that with Precision gone we’ll put those points into Imp Devotion Aura. Other then that, yes the talents are changing positions a bit, but the same talents will be taken.
The new talents though: Touched by the Light (30% of stamina convered into spell power) is gonna be mandatory. You can’t really contest that. I can’t really see right now Guarded by the Light (mana cost reduction of Consecration, Holy Wrath, Avenger's Shield) to be a necessary talent. Spell cost reduction is nice, but we are doing pretty well right now without a cost reduction talent, and our mana regen is going to be aided by the new version of Blessing of Sanctuary. I see those points better spent elsewhere. That said, Shield of the Templar (damage increase and mana decrease of Holy Shield, Avenger's Shield, Shield of Righteousness) should be a must have talent, but because of its damage increase. Judgements of the Just (Judgements reduce target's melee attack speed by 10%) will give us a Thunder Clap type of damage mitigation component, and adds it to a spell we are already spamming. Hammer of the Righteous (weapon damage as Holy damage and high threat on up to 3 targets): more active threat, what we are lacking. Must have.
Putting together a build, I came up with this, leaving only one point to spend on whatever you feel like, which I’d probably just throw into Reckoning.
Makes me think again about Divine Strength, and also the talent Seals of the Pure which is now easily accessible by any spec. Is there anything that truly is “fluff†that could be taken out in favor of an increase to DPS (15% more strength or Seal/Judgement damage)?
Redoubt is highly contested in its value, and come Wrath it will no longer be necessary to take Redoubt as a means to progress further down the tree. It is still however required for Shield Specialization. Shield Spec will get more use in Wrath with the increase in availability of Block Value to the Paladin tank, but are those 8 talents for 30% more Block Value worth it? I had to rethink this a bit because from my initial look at the talents to now this talent had been reworked, and particularly due to Shield of Righteousness, this talent looks better and better. But, I'm still wondering how worth it this talent will be compared to something else. We can take those 8 points out, and with the single point left over from the first build, get both 5/5 Divine Strength and 4/5 Seals of the Pure, like so.
I’ll be very interested to see more once people have been able to experience more at level 80 to see the effect that these different talents have on the tank. Salvation is being re-tooled to an “oh s!@#†button, and with the increased damage DPS will be putting out, it seems that tanks will really need to pour on the damage to hold aggro: which Blizzard has said is what they want and are trying to do. So which will be more important: the extra threat or mitigation for those 8 (9) talent points?
DISCLAIMER: I know that nothing has been finalized, and I may have missed some changes somewhere as I was putting this together. Please, keep it civil here ;) and if anyone has updated info, opinions, whatever, feel free to leave a post with what you got.
Overall I'm looking forward to the new Prot changes for Wrath, and really am just trying to stay up to date with those changes so I can make the best informed decisions about my own Paladin, and others who ask for help, when the time comes these decisions must be made.
EDITED: because I apparently love to make typos >.>
Edited, Sep 6th 2008 10:38pm by Maulgak
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- Random musings on Prot in Wrath
Random musings on Prot in WrathFollow
I found some new info on Naxxramas gear in Wrath, namely the Warrior and Paladin sets. These may not be finalized yet, but I thought it would be nice to show a preview for anyone interested.
From MMO-Champion, I added up the stats for the tanking sets. While stat placement is varying the overall stats are pretty similar wit hPaladins focused on blocking and Warriors more on pure avoidance:
(Ok, I apparently don't know how to get spacing on this site ... Yes, I fail at formats :P Try not to let it bother you ^^)
Paladin Warrior Difference
Armor - 9105 9105
Strength - 361 351 Paladin +10
Stamina - 507 507
Defense Rating - 201 214 Warrior +13
Block Rating - 88 63 Paladin +25
Block Value - 180 65 Paladin +115
Dodge Rating - 76 122 Warrior +46
Parry Rating - 35 84 Warrior +49
Expertise Rating - 30 30
Hit Rating - 30 30
Paladin set has 5 blue sockets, 2 yellow sockets, and a meta socket.
Warrior set has 5 red sockets, 2 blue sockets, and a meta socket.
Paladin socket bonuses total 6 Expertise Rating/Stamina/Block Rating, 4 Hit Rating, and 9 Block Value if gemmed for socket bonuses (6 Expertise, 4 Hit, and 9 Block Value if gemmed with pure stamina gems).
Warrior socket bonuses total 24 Stamina and 12 Dodge Rating if gemmed for socket bonuses (no socket bonuses if gemmed with pure stamina gems).
Gave me something interesting to do, cause, well, I got bored ^^
Edited, Sep 6th 2008 11:45pm by Maulgak
From MMO-Champion, I added up the stats for the tanking sets. While stat placement is varying the overall stats are pretty similar wit hPaladins focused on blocking and Warriors more on pure avoidance:
(Ok, I apparently don't know how to get spacing on this site ... Yes, I fail at formats :P Try not to let it bother you ^^)
Paladin Warrior Difference
Armor - 9105 9105
Strength - 361 351 Paladin +10
Stamina - 507 507
Defense Rating - 201 214 Warrior +13
Block Rating - 88 63 Paladin +25
Block Value - 180 65 Paladin +115
Dodge Rating - 76 122 Warrior +46
Parry Rating - 35 84 Warrior +49
Expertise Rating - 30 30
Hit Rating - 30 30
Paladin set has 5 blue sockets, 2 yellow sockets, and a meta socket.
Warrior set has 5 red sockets, 2 blue sockets, and a meta socket.
Paladin socket bonuses total 6 Expertise Rating/Stamina/Block Rating, 4 Hit Rating, and 9 Block Value if gemmed for socket bonuses (6 Expertise, 4 Hit, and 9 Block Value if gemmed with pure stamina gems).
Warrior socket bonuses total 24 Stamina and 12 Dodge Rating if gemmed for socket bonuses (no socket bonuses if gemmed with pure stamina gems).
Gave me something interesting to do, cause, well, I got bored ^^
Edited, Sep 6th 2008 11:45pm by Maulgak
That's an interesting insight pertaining to redoubt. Probably instances where you'll want both 5/5 str and redoubt for max block value in aoe situations. Might look like this...
One of the changes you may have over looked was the change to conviction in ret, now increases crit of both spells and melee attacks. I'm thinking something like this might be pretty fun from a max threat pov.
One of the changes you may have over looked was the change to conviction in ret, now increases crit of both spells and melee attacks. I'm thinking something like this might be pretty fun from a max threat pov.
I had not really thought about Divine Strength AND Redoubt, hehe, guess it just slipped my mind. I'd imagine that yes there would be situations where that would be the most effective use of talents: Hyjal trash anyone?
Still, the Prot tree is bloated, although Blizzard has (more or less) promised to trim it down some. This is one reason I haven't looked past second tier in Ret for a tank spec. Another is that while white damage will be much more noticeable and Conviction indeed is melee AND spell crit now, I don't see much Agility on tanking gear, much less crit rating. Would it be a DPS/threat boost? Absolutely, but I'm not sure it would be more then a talent that increases 'base' damage for lack of a better term since crits still will be few and far between for a tank.
Maybe someone in the beta can test that out for us, see how those different talents affect a tank's overall threat :)
Still, the Prot tree is bloated, although Blizzard has (more or less) promised to trim it down some. This is one reason I haven't looked past second tier in Ret for a tank spec. Another is that while white damage will be much more noticeable and Conviction indeed is melee AND spell crit now, I don't see much Agility on tanking gear, much less crit rating. Would it be a DPS/threat boost? Absolutely, but I'm not sure it would be more then a talent that increases 'base' damage for lack of a better term since crits still will be few and far between for a tank.
Maybe someone in the beta can test that out for us, see how those different talents affect a tank's overall threat :)
Maulgak wrote:
1) Seals and Judgements will scale with spell power and attack power, our new ability Shield of Righteousness is based on Shield Block Value (both affected by strength), and it appears strength will be very prevalent on tanking gear: how big will Divine Strength be as a tanking talent?
yes, strength in wrath will be a hugely valuable for tanks for both threat and mitigation. as such we should have enough strength stacked that Divine Strength will likely be a great talent to take, especially if blizzard addresses the bloat in prot in this upcoming pally build. if they don't it may be tough to afford 5 points for it. we'll have to see how they modify the prot tree this next build.
Maulgak wrote:
2) Benediction: will this talent be as much of a must have now that Judging will not remove the Seal from the Paladin? We’ll be Sealing up much less, although probably still Judging the same amount. Thinking again, we’ll still be buffing ourselves with Sanctuary (most likely - due to the new mana regen feature) or Kings, so even though Might will be a beneficial spell for a Paladin tank now, I don’t see us giving ourselves Might making Benediction still the better choice over Imp BoM for progressing down the tree.
honestly, as it stands now i don't think benediction is worthwhile for anyone. imo it'd be better to take Imp. BoM even if just for flexibility in buffing other people. Prot pallies will likely be taking Sanctuary nearly 100% of the time, but for everyone else it'll be kings or BoM or Wisdom likely.
Maulgak wrote:
3) Will Seal of Vengeance/Corruption be THE tanking Seal? Every Seal/Judgement combo will deal some damage now, though the current damaging Judgements will deal more damage then non-damaging ones. So this means even if you Seal Vengeance/Corruption you will still have, albeit smaller, a JoR type effect on your initial Judgement while also having the advantage of starting your stacks earlier. Also these Seals will stack their effect on every swing now, not a chance on hit.
with the scaling of SoR, SoV, SoCor, i think vengeance will definitely be THE tanking seal, maybe with SoR being weaved into the rotation after you get a 5 stack of SoV. because they stack on ever swing and not just some, it will be possible to get a 5 stack and let it tick while you run SoR for the higher per hit damage, for the next 18 seconds and then switch to SoV just to reresh the SoV stack and go back to SoR. A rotation like this can likely result in max threat/damage. on this note i think Seals of the Pure will be a key talent for Prot pallies.
Maulak wrote:
4) Damage range increased to 35% and below for Hammer of Wrath, now recently also made instant cast, and Holy Wrath buffed to instant cast, but range reduced. I think these are going to be huge. Hammer of Wrath is a no brainer: particularly great because it’s longer fights that at least I as a Prot Paladin seem to have the hardest time with threat. We can use this now earlier to keep up threat late in a fight. And Holy Wrath being instant makes it actually, you know, usable. For AOE undead/demon fights this will be a large boost to our threat. Anyone NOT as impressed with these changes as I am?
i'm loving these changes for prot and ret. amazing changes to skills that many rarely or never used. these should become staple abilities in any prot/ret rotation.
Maulgak wrote:
5) Avenger’s Shield cast reduced to .5 sec. Now usable during combat in a larger number of situations. I love it! Daze duration increased and damage reduced. I don’t care so much about the damage as it will now be scaling with AP as well, but the daze increase I’m not all that happy about. Mostly this comes from the fact that on pulls larger than 3 the targets unaffected by Avenger’s Shield come much faster then those hit with AS, and healers have a tendency to jump the gun a bit. I know this is countered with Consecration, but then you have the DPS who also start in. They see the primary target is too far away but want to keep their damage up and start in on the targets not hit by AS. It bugs the hell outta me, but no matter how many times you tell them not to, it still happens. Targets will take even longer to reach you … I don’t know. Seems the overeager problem will be compounded a bit.
i don't know. i'm pretty happy with all of it. i already use the daze as much as i can. if there's more than 3 mobs, i aim at one side of the pull and mark skull on the other end so skull will be the first one to get to me. as much as so many people have complained about AS, i've always loved this... when it pulls more than i intended, that just means things move along faster. i take advantage of the daze. i almost never want a single target pull anyway.
Maulgak wrote:
6) I’m looking at Holy Shield and it being buffed in the number of charges it has base, as well as CD reduced. I’ve read others say improving Holy Shield for more charges will no longer be mandatory. However, Improved Holy Shield also increases its damage (and in so doing, its threat). Also during AE pulls you can lose Holy Shield charges before the CD is up. There was also the issue of lag/reaction time in refreshing Holy Shield when its duration and CD were the same. I don’t see these changes to Holy Shield changing the way we use/spec at all, but see it as a huge buff in many ways.
/agreed
Maulgak wrote:
7) Looking at the Prot tree, I’m thinking that up to Avenger’s Shield the only real change in talents taken will be that with Precision gone we’ll put those points into Imp Devotion Aura. Other then that, yes the talents are changing positions a bit, but the same talents will be taken. The new talents though: Touched by the Light (30% of stamina convered into spell power) is gonna be mandatory. You can’t really contest that. I can’t really see right now Guarded by the Light (mana cost reduction of Consecration, Holy Wrath, Avenger's Shield) to be a necessary talent. Spell cost reduction is nice, but we are doing pretty well right now without a cost reduction talent, and our mana regen is going to be aided by the new version of Blessing of Sanctuary. I see those points better spent elsewhere. That said, Shield of the Templar (damage increase and mana decrease of Holy Shield, Avenger's Shield, Shield of Righteousness) should be a must have talent, but because of its damage increase. Judgements of the Just (Judgements reduce target's melee attack speed by 10%) will give us a Thunder Clap type of damage mitigation component, and adds it to a spell we are already spamming. Hammer of the Righteous (weapon damage as Holy damage and high threat on up to 3 targets): more active threat, what we are lacking. Must have.
/agree
Maulgak wrote:
Makes me think again about Divine Strength, and also the talent Seals of the Pure which is now easily accessible by any spec. Is there anything that truly is “fluff†that could be taken out in favor of an increase to DPS (15% more strength or Seal/Judgement damage)?
Redoubt is highly contested in its value, and come Wrath it will no longer be necessary to take Redoubt as a means to progress further down the tree. It is still however required for Shield Specialization. Shield Spec will get more use in Wrath with the increase in availability of Block Value to the Paladin tank, but are those 8 talents for 30% more Block Value worth it? I had to rethink this a bit because from my initial look at the talents to now this talent had been reworked, and particularly due to Shield of Righteousness, this talent looks better and better. But, I'm still wondering how worth it this talent will be compared to something else. We can take those 8 points out, and with the single point left over from the first build, get both 5/5 Divine Strength and 4/5 Seals of the Pure.
Redoubt is highly contested in its value, and come Wrath it will no longer be necessary to take Redoubt as a means to progress further down the tree. It is still however required for Shield Specialization. Shield Spec will get more use in Wrath with the increase in availability of Block Value to the Paladin tank, but are those 8 talents for 30% more Block Value worth it? I had to rethink this a bit because from my initial look at the talents to now this talent had been reworked, and particularly due to Shield of Righteousness, this talent looks better and better. But, I'm still wondering how worth it this talent will be compared to something else. We can take those 8 points out, and with the single point left over from the first build, get both 5/5 Divine Strength and 4/5 Seals of the Pure.
i think Blizzard is going to attempt to reduce some of the bloat in prot tree. some of the question of taking x at the expense of y or maybe taking z will be gone when they finalize the new prot tree. i certainly hope so at least. even just moving deflection to tier 1 in ret would free up 5 more points.
all in all, even if things stay like they are i think its good for us to have to choose a little between different aspects of tanking. it will allow more flexibility depending on gear level (i.e. i may have 50% dodge but have dpsers that are lmited by my threat so i'll take divine strength/SotP; i have only 50% total avoidance, but my guildies are all recent 80's and i easily keep up with the threat so i'll take redoubt..)
tool, you mention something I hadn't thought about: swapping to SoR once Vengeance has stacked to 5, then swapping back to SoV to refresh the stacks, and going back and forth like that. Two things that came to my head about that: 1) the potential to miss your attack and have the stacks fall off anyway and 2) what you said about Benediction. If this was going to be common practice, I'd think you'd want Benediction because you'd be re-Sealing quite often.
I like it though. One more thing to add to the list of things I would love to see some tests/numbers on :) I would imagine the threat would be higher, but I'm wondering if the extra threat from Seal swapping like this would be worth the extra mana cost, or whether our mana regen will be enough to make this a non-issue.
I like it though. One more thing to add to the list of things I would love to see some tests/numbers on :) I would imagine the threat would be higher, but I'm wondering if the extra threat from Seal swapping like this would be worth the extra mana cost, or whether our mana regen will be enough to make this a non-issue.
Maulgak wrote:
If this was going to be common practice, I'd think you'd want Benediction because you'd be re-Sealing quite often.
hmm, you have a point. i do think blizz is trying to adequately address the mana issues we have (as can be seen in the new Blessing of Sanctuary), but we'll see if its enough.
we will have too many GCDs as it is with all the new buttons to press. Seal Twisting as a prot seems like it will be a waste of time. id rather waste that GCD on a consicrate that we wont have to use anymore.
Edit: future tense, as LK isnt out yet . . . c.c
Edited, Sep 8th 2008 4:24pm by RuenBahamut
Edit: future tense, as LK isnt out yet . . . c.c
Edited, Sep 8th 2008 4:24pm by RuenBahamut
The RuenBahamut of Doom wrote:
we will have too many GCDs as it is with all the new buttons to press. Seal Twisting as a prot seems like it will be a waste of time. id rather waste that GCD on a consicrate that we wont have to use anymore.
Edit: future tense, as LK isnt out yet . . . c.c
Edited, Sep 8th 2008 4:24pm by RuenBahamut
Edit: future tense, as LK isnt out yet . . . c.c
Edited, Sep 8th 2008 4:24pm by RuenBahamut
i can understand your point to a degree. i just think tanking as a pally in wrath will be much different than now... now its judge seal of choice, reseal SoR, consecrate, rinse and repeat.... in wrath we'll have 2 additional strikes and we'll have to think about the fight and what abilities would be best suited for that fight. AoE fights will still be mostly Consecrate. single target fights though or even 2 - 3 targets we'll prolly not be using consecrate as much. on bosses i think it will likely be worth the GCD to switch seals. i suppose we'll see though. i'll try to test it sometime... not sure when though. not had a lot of opportunity to get on the beta the last couple days.
Scholar
34 posts
Actually, tanking now is KEEP HOLY SHIELD UP, then do everything you mentioned. With crushes removed from the game, our reliance on Holy Shield for uncrushability is not a factor, so our rotations have a lot more room for play (provided you do reach uncrittable).
But yeah, I don't see us doing a lot of seal switching...though there will be some to address whatever is deficient in that particular fight.
But yeah, I don't see us doing a lot of seal switching...though there will be some to address whatever is deficient in that particular fight.
yeah, now they've reduced SoV stacks back to 15 seconds theres even less room for switching to SoR. we'll see if it'll work still or not.
EDIT: Reading over this post after writing it, I'm remembering the temple in FFXII (12, not the lawlMMO) where the Demon Walls close in on you and quite probably kill you (unless diligently level up by grinding outside for a couple hours first).
All the "cool kids" have a couple threads where they respond to the OP 1 point at a time, so I figure I'll give it a shot.
1. It will be valuable to tanks, yes. I don't see it as being one of the core "must have" talents, but I can certainly see it being one of the talents that you have to make the hard decision over sacrificing something else for, and many will.
2. I'm all for Benediction. Right now it sort of straddles the border between "must have" and "flavor" with most people taking it because they can't personally justify losing it for anything else. I think in the Wrath trees it is much more... optional. Like Divine Strength, it will mean sacrifices, but I feel most people will still take it.
3. I'm sure seal use will remain situational but I'm confident that when balancing is done the primary tanking seal will be SoV/Cor. I'm fairly sure that no one will be able to develop a reasonable argument with mathematical support for using another seal in the average situation with normal conditions. Right now, the arguments in favor of SoR and SoV are both entirely valid with utility usually favoring SoR. I think the expansion will eliminate that situation.
4. These changes are excellent. They are making the spells what they should have been in the first place. I would be perfectly happy with the cast time remaining on HoW since it could be used in many combat situations already and had to be properly woven into your rotation. The problem with that line of thinking though is that it is entirely TBC in nature. A tanking rotation will get more complicated in Wrath (note that I intentionally excluded the term "much more" since it's not going to be rocket science) and fitting in another instant cast that requires certain conditions to be met before its available will be just as difficult as fitting in another short-cast in TBC. My mind's eye had always envisioned Holy Wrath as a point blank... 1 or 2 steps away AoE blast, and the changes make it that.
5. I like all the changes to AS. Despite introducing new abilities, overall tanking has become much simpler (as has every role in a group). In general, the game is much simpler. Now I haven't logged on the beta in a little while but it already showed in most facets of the game. Thankfully, positioning and footwork will still have an element of challenge to it, and I think a longer daze duration on AS contributes to that. I don't want a game where the only "cost" of casting a spell is mana and time (in form of the GCD and cast time). Every single action you take in a game should have very specific costs beyond that which you have to balance in order to justify.
6. Overall I agree that there has been a buff to Holy Shield. Right now we still don't know how necessary the extra charges/damage will be, but you can still be fairly sure that Holy Shield will be one of the primary abilities we use and a talent that further buffs something that you have up almost all of the time is definitely a good thing. I guess we'll have to see how it turns out. The cooldown also introduces an element of mana management to Holy Shield. Imagine you're trying to keep a seal up (no judging involved). Do you reseal right as the seal expires or do you reseal with 5s left all of the time? It's just not good practice to spend more mana (and potentially trigger more GCDs depending on the spell) than you need to, which will of course change with every fight.
7+. While I'm fairly happy with the general changes that are being made to Protection (of course balancing will have to bring those changes up to par.. something that we haven't seen completed yet as right now only the mechanics have been implemented) and the role that those changes would seem to put us in... I'm disappointed that the Protection tree is still extremely bloated and loaded with absolute MUST haves. One of the focuses that Blizzard keeps telling us about is that tank classes should be able to tank effectively with various specs. And even high-performance raid tanks should in theory have much more freedom with their specs. In such a case, a raid tank would of course be focusing on the Protection tree.. but the idea is that there should be a few different paths up the tree that offer different flavors of tanking. Unfortunately our Protection tree does NOT look like its going to offer such flexibility. Yes -- there will be a few flavor talents that can be taken at the expense of other talents (and I'm sure that given their natures communities like Maintankadin will have a full mathematical breakdown of the benefits and costs of all of those choices which will result in a standard choice that really IS the best at what it does) but they won't really effect game-play... especially to the extent that Blizzard says they're trying to make them.
It's funny you should mention Redoubt. It's always been an excellent option. OPTION. Depending on level, and then gear level, Redoubt can be one of your most valuable talents or it can be utterly useless. Shield Specialization was always an important talent in the past but I have the feeling that if something really good was offered that left the optimal build without Shield Specialization, no one would really have missed it. Of course when there isn't anything worth trading it for, the story is different. Now, Shield Specialization is an absolutely vital component of a raid tank, and will definitely be in the build that works out to be "optimal" at what it does. The downside? It is still attached to Redoubt. An absolutely vital talent is attached to a talent that was virtual useless to me (and many others) BEFORE the changes to the combat table -- which has even less value to people who AREN'T in that situation now to boot. Spending 8 talents for a boost to Block Value (worth 3 talents) with no other noticeable difference is literally the definition of talent tree bloating.
I have three opinions in regards to the bloating involved with Redoubt, in order of my preference starting with my most preferred:
1. Make Redoubt a single point talent and leave it attached to Shield Specialization, reducing the "weight" of that 30% Block Value by 4 talent points. I think a total cost of 4 points for that is entirely reasonable. The downside of this change is that some people will still be spending a point on a talent that they just wont be using. I'm not saying they'll be using it in a reduced capacity, I'm saying they WON'T be using it. Why did we take Sanctuary in the past? It's attached to Holy Shield. Did we ***** over the fact that we didn't really use it (from a deep-progression raid perspective)? No.... we took the loss of 1 talent point since it led to 3 of the best spent talents points that we had. Even then, in a properly balanced game EVERY talent should give you some kind of benefit, even a small one. The other downside is that it screws with the Tiers, replacing a 5 point talent with a 1 point talent.
2. Add an extra effect to Redoubt that does something special when you block WHILE it is up. Preferably it would give you an offensive boost or it would cause a negative effect to your opponent's offensive ability. Alternately it could do something else to boost your defensive ability but that would defeat the purpose of the synergy between abilities that is so prevalent in the expansion so far. The big issue I can see with this is that it would be extremely difficult to balance. The bonus offered would obviously have to be enough to make a legit difference or Redoubt remains a fairly pointless talent. To be fair, it would still offer that SMALL benefit that I mentioned in the last idea, but remember that it would be at the expense of 5 talent points rather than 1. The effect would have to be large enough to justify 5 talent points but I'm afraid that any such effect would be so extreme that at BEST it would make this talent a "MUST HAVE" which we don't want more of, or at WORST would make it entirely OP. I suppose it would be possible to add an extremely small "on block" effect (while Redoubt is up... which it hardly ever is) AND reduce the weight of the talent to 1 point as well.. but that's throwing a lot of ammunition at the problem all at once.
3. Leave the mechanic and weight of Redoubt entirely as it is and reverse it with Shield Specialization. This would allow those that can gain benefit from Redoubt to spec into it and at the same time allow those who can't derive benefit from it to spend those points elsewhere. There are some people who would find Redoubt so useful that it would almost be considered a must have for them... and there are some people who would just plain laugh at taking it. This approach fits the model that Blizzard is trying to build tanks around the most. It doesn't give a legitimate option that ANYONE could take and gain relatively similar benefits from but it DOES create a branch between talents and gear. When the gear is able to stand on its own and the talent it no longer needed to supplement it, it can be replaced for something else that offers more immediate value. The downsides are that it leaves the Protection tree bloated still. Yes, there's more flexibility -- but if you're taking Redoubt its because you're still getting major returns for it, which means you're still pigeonholed into the same situation that you're in now. Okay, technically the freedom exists to NOT take it, but in practice you can't really make that sacrifice. The only people who really get value from this change are those, like me, that can go through an entire collective parse of an entire run of Black Temple and see redoubt proc only a few times totaling to a fraction of a % of your total time in combat -- and that happening when your avoidance is already so high that the entire 30% (plus some of the Block that Holy Shield provides without even adding Redoubt into the mix) is dropped off the table. The other downside is that it places Redoubt (an ability that is useful from the moment you can wear a shield and get hit... ie. level 1) quite a bit higher in the talent tree (and screws with the Tiers since you replace a 5 point talent with a 3) and stick a talent that is relatively useless until later in the game (moderately useful when you start getting actual numbers for Block Value, but exceptionally useful with the new Wrath baseline 70+ abilities) way down in the earliest Tiers.
Bottom line.. Wrath won't be the same. I'm interested to see how things finalize. And though I'd be happy if Blizzard properly balanced the core mechanic changes that they have already implemented, I would like to see structural changes to the Protection tree as well (not just balancing).
Edited, Sep 10th 2008 6:36pm by Losie
All the "cool kids" have a couple threads where they respond to the OP 1 point at a time, so I figure I'll give it a shot.
1. It will be valuable to tanks, yes. I don't see it as being one of the core "must have" talents, but I can certainly see it being one of the talents that you have to make the hard decision over sacrificing something else for, and many will.
2. I'm all for Benediction. Right now it sort of straddles the border between "must have" and "flavor" with most people taking it because they can't personally justify losing it for anything else. I think in the Wrath trees it is much more... optional. Like Divine Strength, it will mean sacrifices, but I feel most people will still take it.
3. I'm sure seal use will remain situational but I'm confident that when balancing is done the primary tanking seal will be SoV/Cor. I'm fairly sure that no one will be able to develop a reasonable argument with mathematical support for using another seal in the average situation with normal conditions. Right now, the arguments in favor of SoR and SoV are both entirely valid with utility usually favoring SoR. I think the expansion will eliminate that situation.
4. These changes are excellent. They are making the spells what they should have been in the first place. I would be perfectly happy with the cast time remaining on HoW since it could be used in many combat situations already and had to be properly woven into your rotation. The problem with that line of thinking though is that it is entirely TBC in nature. A tanking rotation will get more complicated in Wrath (note that I intentionally excluded the term "much more" since it's not going to be rocket science) and fitting in another instant cast that requires certain conditions to be met before its available will be just as difficult as fitting in another short-cast in TBC. My mind's eye had always envisioned Holy Wrath as a point blank... 1 or 2 steps away AoE blast, and the changes make it that.
5. I like all the changes to AS. Despite introducing new abilities, overall tanking has become much simpler (as has every role in a group). In general, the game is much simpler. Now I haven't logged on the beta in a little while but it already showed in most facets of the game. Thankfully, positioning and footwork will still have an element of challenge to it, and I think a longer daze duration on AS contributes to that. I don't want a game where the only "cost" of casting a spell is mana and time (in form of the GCD and cast time). Every single action you take in a game should have very specific costs beyond that which you have to balance in order to justify.
6. Overall I agree that there has been a buff to Holy Shield. Right now we still don't know how necessary the extra charges/damage will be, but you can still be fairly sure that Holy Shield will be one of the primary abilities we use and a talent that further buffs something that you have up almost all of the time is definitely a good thing. I guess we'll have to see how it turns out. The cooldown also introduces an element of mana management to Holy Shield. Imagine you're trying to keep a seal up (no judging involved). Do you reseal right as the seal expires or do you reseal with 5s left all of the time? It's just not good practice to spend more mana (and potentially trigger more GCDs depending on the spell) than you need to, which will of course change with every fight.
7+. While I'm fairly happy with the general changes that are being made to Protection (of course balancing will have to bring those changes up to par.. something that we haven't seen completed yet as right now only the mechanics have been implemented) and the role that those changes would seem to put us in... I'm disappointed that the Protection tree is still extremely bloated and loaded with absolute MUST haves. One of the focuses that Blizzard keeps telling us about is that tank classes should be able to tank effectively with various specs. And even high-performance raid tanks should in theory have much more freedom with their specs. In such a case, a raid tank would of course be focusing on the Protection tree.. but the idea is that there should be a few different paths up the tree that offer different flavors of tanking. Unfortunately our Protection tree does NOT look like its going to offer such flexibility. Yes -- there will be a few flavor talents that can be taken at the expense of other talents (and I'm sure that given their natures communities like Maintankadin will have a full mathematical breakdown of the benefits and costs of all of those choices which will result in a standard choice that really IS the best at what it does) but they won't really effect game-play... especially to the extent that Blizzard says they're trying to make them.
It's funny you should mention Redoubt. It's always been an excellent option. OPTION. Depending on level, and then gear level, Redoubt can be one of your most valuable talents or it can be utterly useless. Shield Specialization was always an important talent in the past but I have the feeling that if something really good was offered that left the optimal build without Shield Specialization, no one would really have missed it. Of course when there isn't anything worth trading it for, the story is different. Now, Shield Specialization is an absolutely vital component of a raid tank, and will definitely be in the build that works out to be "optimal" at what it does. The downside? It is still attached to Redoubt. An absolutely vital talent is attached to a talent that was virtual useless to me (and many others) BEFORE the changes to the combat table -- which has even less value to people who AREN'T in that situation now to boot. Spending 8 talents for a boost to Block Value (worth 3 talents) with no other noticeable difference is literally the definition of talent tree bloating.
I have three opinions in regards to the bloating involved with Redoubt, in order of my preference starting with my most preferred:
1. Make Redoubt a single point talent and leave it attached to Shield Specialization, reducing the "weight" of that 30% Block Value by 4 talent points. I think a total cost of 4 points for that is entirely reasonable. The downside of this change is that some people will still be spending a point on a talent that they just wont be using. I'm not saying they'll be using it in a reduced capacity, I'm saying they WON'T be using it. Why did we take Sanctuary in the past? It's attached to Holy Shield. Did we ***** over the fact that we didn't really use it (from a deep-progression raid perspective)? No.... we took the loss of 1 talent point since it led to 3 of the best spent talents points that we had. Even then, in a properly balanced game EVERY talent should give you some kind of benefit, even a small one. The other downside is that it screws with the Tiers, replacing a 5 point talent with a 1 point talent.
2. Add an extra effect to Redoubt that does something special when you block WHILE it is up. Preferably it would give you an offensive boost or it would cause a negative effect to your opponent's offensive ability. Alternately it could do something else to boost your defensive ability but that would defeat the purpose of the synergy between abilities that is so prevalent in the expansion so far. The big issue I can see with this is that it would be extremely difficult to balance. The bonus offered would obviously have to be enough to make a legit difference or Redoubt remains a fairly pointless talent. To be fair, it would still offer that SMALL benefit that I mentioned in the last idea, but remember that it would be at the expense of 5 talent points rather than 1. The effect would have to be large enough to justify 5 talent points but I'm afraid that any such effect would be so extreme that at BEST it would make this talent a "MUST HAVE" which we don't want more of, or at WORST would make it entirely OP. I suppose it would be possible to add an extremely small "on block" effect (while Redoubt is up... which it hardly ever is) AND reduce the weight of the talent to 1 point as well.. but that's throwing a lot of ammunition at the problem all at once.
3. Leave the mechanic and weight of Redoubt entirely as it is and reverse it with Shield Specialization. This would allow those that can gain benefit from Redoubt to spec into it and at the same time allow those who can't derive benefit from it to spend those points elsewhere. There are some people who would find Redoubt so useful that it would almost be considered a must have for them... and there are some people who would just plain laugh at taking it. This approach fits the model that Blizzard is trying to build tanks around the most. It doesn't give a legitimate option that ANYONE could take and gain relatively similar benefits from but it DOES create a branch between talents and gear. When the gear is able to stand on its own and the talent it no longer needed to supplement it, it can be replaced for something else that offers more immediate value. The downsides are that it leaves the Protection tree bloated still. Yes, there's more flexibility -- but if you're taking Redoubt its because you're still getting major returns for it, which means you're still pigeonholed into the same situation that you're in now. Okay, technically the freedom exists to NOT take it, but in practice you can't really make that sacrifice. The only people who really get value from this change are those, like me, that can go through an entire collective parse of an entire run of Black Temple and see redoubt proc only a few times totaling to a fraction of a % of your total time in combat -- and that happening when your avoidance is already so high that the entire 30% (plus some of the Block that Holy Shield provides without even adding Redoubt into the mix) is dropped off the table. The other downside is that it places Redoubt (an ability that is useful from the moment you can wear a shield and get hit... ie. level 1) quite a bit higher in the talent tree (and screws with the Tiers since you replace a 5 point talent with a 3) and stick a talent that is relatively useless until later in the game (moderately useful when you start getting actual numbers for Block Value, but exceptionally useful with the new Wrath baseline 70+ abilities) way down in the earliest Tiers.
Bottom line.. Wrath won't be the same. I'm interested to see how things finalize. And though I'd be happy if Blizzard properly balanced the core mechanic changes that they have already implemented, I would like to see structural changes to the Protection tree as well (not just balancing).
Edited, Sep 10th 2008 6:36pm by Losie
Last night's beta build completely rocked the protection tree. Wowhead's calculator has been updated to reflect it. Anyone wish to comment while I go open up a fresh roll of paper towels?
Looks like you forgot an option Losie, they could just combine shield spec + redoubt into 3 talent pts that do the same thing as 8, lol. Making it a Tier 8 talent to spec into as needed rather than as filler for higher tiers is nice as well.
and to think i thought the prot tree was our stongest tree in beta BEFORE this las buildlast night... prot got staight buffed this build while ret dps was nerfed but mana efficiency and utility was buffed a little and holy was forced into BoL spec with no more options for SoL specs and one of our staple holy abilities was nerfed a little (20% SP from int rather than 35%) so instead of 35% int to +heals AND 30% of AP to +heals we only can get 20% of int... thats about 1/3 what we were getting with SoL spec.
Wow, yea that does seem to free things up a bit. I had heard they wanted to do something different with Kings, but I didn't see this coming, lol. Gonna have to rethink a number of things I put in my original post, lol. More later when I get over the shock.
Oh, and Avenger's Shield instant cast FTW!
Oh, and Avenger's Shield instant cast FTW!
Only small problem with insta cast AS will be spell timing among the CC. I know several mages who have the polymorph cast time perfectly synced with AS so that the target is sheeped less than a second after I pull with AS, keeping the sheep well out of consecration range.
Other than that, prot is going to be epic! I've already made my lvl 70 build for when the patch comes in and I plan to keep updating it as changes are made. Depending on what they do with the first tiers of holy and ret we may have to go into both trees to pick up some useful talents. Seals of the Pure would definitely help our threat production with the increased damage and Parry, Benediction, and at least one point in improved judgments are must haves.
It's so nice to see paladin tanks getting some love.
Other than that, prot is going to be epic! I've already made my lvl 70 build for when the patch comes in and I plan to keep updating it as changes are made. Depending on what they do with the first tiers of holy and ret we may have to go into both trees to pick up some useful talents. Seals of the Pure would definitely help our threat production with the increased damage and Parry, Benediction, and at least one point in improved judgments are must haves.
It's so nice to see paladin tanks getting some love.
I don't really like the changes to Redoubt or Reckoning procing off of a blocked attack -- but I can live with them for the other boons from this last build. The good things are fairly obvious so I won't comment on them, the only thing that I will comment on is my main negative criticism of the changes...
I can now take every single talent I want in Protection, Ret, and even dump 5 points into the first Tier of Holy for some more seal power. I didn't have to sacrifice anything of value. I even had 1 point flying about at the end that I just couldn't figure out what to do with because there wasn't really anything left that I cared about after taking all the "extra" talents that don't really matter much but I had points for. It certainly doesn't make for engaging decisions that effect play-style :D
I can now take every single talent I want in Protection, Ret, and even dump 5 points into the first Tier of Holy for some more seal power. I didn't have to sacrifice anything of value. I even had 1 point flying about at the end that I just couldn't figure out what to do with because there wasn't really anything left that I cared about after taking all the "extra" talents that don't really matter much but I had points for. It certainly doesn't make for engaging decisions that effect play-style :D
Losie wrote:
I don't really like the changes to Redoubt or Reckoning procing off of a blocked attack
What do you mean by this? The talent calculator still says, "after being hit by any damaging attack," for Reckoning and, "damaging melee and ranged attacks against you," for Redoubt. Is this what you meant or is there some change that hasn't showed up on the calculators yet?
Sorry, just a bit confuzzled >.<
EDIT: also curious about your spec Losie. Right now I can see this being my spec of choice for level 80. The points for Kings was just filler to get down the tree, though I'm debating on whether or not a 6% Kings buff is worth it or whether taking some other talent will be better.
Edited, Sep 13th 2008 2:20am by Maulgak
Scholar
32 posts
I am confused a little on the new Redoubt. It appears, from the latest build, that it gives us a flat 30% increase in block value and a 10% chance to increase block by another 30%. Am I interpreting this correctly? If so, then Redoubt seems like a decent talent to drop 3 points into, just for the constant 30% increase in block value.
Also, are all the "Greater" blessings going way or just Salvation?
Does the salvation buff only last for 10sec? I read on a post "Blessing of Salvation renamed Hand of Salvation, now reduces total threat on the target by 2% per second for 10 seconds while also reducing all damage and healing done by 10%."
I came up with this build: http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sVZaxVA0uMteIRGoe
Any thoughts?
Also, are all the "Greater" blessings going way or just Salvation?
Does the salvation buff only last for 10sec? I read on a post "Blessing of Salvation renamed Hand of Salvation, now reduces total threat on the target by 2% per second for 10 seconds while also reducing all damage and healing done by 10%."
I came up with this build: http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sVZaxVA0uMteIRGoe
Any thoughts?
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