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Official Beta Changes and Discussion [updated 9/19/08]Follow
Improved Poisons sure took a beating. I assume this means we're keeping our increased damage on IP application.
Kavekk wrote:
Improved Poisons sure took a beating. I assume this means we're keeping our increased damage on IP application.
They increased the base application rate of poisons (at least Wound and Crip).
All we need now is a glyph that fixes the vanish bug.
No, we need a mutilate glyph.
They don't seem to be adding glyphs that affect talents only, are they? Unless I missed something. A mutilate glyph would pretty much settle my choice though.
It's a talented ability, sure. But an ability all the same. I wouldn't be surprised to see a Muti-specific glyph coming at us before launch.
Well yes, but what I mean is that afaik there isn't a single glyph for any class that affects an ability only attainable by talenting. That might be so with a reason...
Mozared wrote:
Well yes, but what I mean is that afaik there isn't a single glyph for any class that affects an ability only attainable by talenting. That might be so with a reason...
Adrenaline Rush
Blade Flurry
Ghostly Strike
Hemorrhage
Preparation
Those have been around for awhile now. :P Wowhead is usually pretty quick about adding em in, usually just check this every few days to see if there's anything new.
Point taken, I'll shut up now.
Noticed something awesome: Mutilate counts as 2 attacks for Focused Attacks. Saw it mentioned on EJ and confirmed it myself. That's 6e for an attack that most of us will be using soon... a lot. ;)
Added new changes from build 8970 to my OP.
Some really hurtful changes to PvP mut in there, specifically a HFB nerf. A big one.
Edit: Though the changes to FIlthy Tricks makes it ridiculous in PvP. Along with the Glyph of Prep, that means that sub rogues will have Prep on a 3 min cooldown.
Edited, Sep 19th 2008 10:33pm by Theophany
Some really hurtful changes to PvP mut in there, specifically a HFB nerf. A big one.
Edit: Though the changes to FIlthy Tricks makes it ridiculous in PvP. Along with the Glyph of Prep, that means that sub rogues will have Prep on a 3 min cooldown.
Edited, Sep 19th 2008 10:33pm by Theophany
5 posts
OK, with the latest build up, what are you guys thinking about Muti at 80? Now that they've gutted Deadly Brew, making it worthless for PvE, nerfed Imp Poisons again and we've already kissed Infectious Poisons goodbye. I know they're trying to balance the trees and different classes' DPS, but it seems that most of the new talents that made the Assassination tree interesting are gone or nearing pointlessness. What also worries me is the effectiveness of CttC and Envenom now that we back to running w/ IP on MH and DP on OH. Will we be able to put a stack of DP back up fast enough w/o Deadly Brew, w/o losing too much DPS? I assume that an Envenom/Rupture cycle will be the way to go now.
I've been keeping up with the various theorycrafting being done at EJ, but I tend to understand it better here. I'll keep reading there, too, but I'd like to hear other's take on the new build changes.
On another note, it seems like the whole problem stems from the decision to do away with the poison skill and just sell poisons at the vendor. Am I wrong in assuming that they'll sell just one generic "Instant Poison", for example, and it scales to the lastest rank you know, with your AP factored in? I guess I'm confused how that's gonna work. If I'm right (who knows, it's happened before), then the problem with our poisons doing FAR too much DPS when combined with the pre-nerf poison talents could be fixed by just going back to the existing system. Just a thought and I may be far off base (that's happened before, too.... a lot)
Edit: Damn, I had to go away from the computer for a few before I could post this and I come back to find Theo's already posted the changes in the OP.
Edited, Sep 19th 2008 10:55pm by Apsylar
I've been keeping up with the various theorycrafting being done at EJ, but I tend to understand it better here. I'll keep reading there, too, but I'd like to hear other's take on the new build changes.
On another note, it seems like the whole problem stems from the decision to do away with the poison skill and just sell poisons at the vendor. Am I wrong in assuming that they'll sell just one generic "Instant Poison", for example, and it scales to the lastest rank you know, with your AP factored in? I guess I'm confused how that's gonna work. If I'm right (who knows, it's happened before), then the problem with our poisons doing FAR too much DPS when combined with the pre-nerf poison talents could be fixed by just going back to the existing system. Just a thought and I may be far off base (that's happened before, too.... a lot)
Edit: Damn, I had to go away from the computer for a few before I could post this and I come back to find Theo's already posted the changes in the OP.
Edited, Sep 19th 2008 10:55pm by Apsylar
Liking those changes in combat. The extra 4% in Aggression for 2 talents saves deep combat from having to back-track down the tree and spend two more in defensive talents. Decent boost to Blood Poisoning/Savage Combat. A free finisher every 25 sec from Vitality may not be too bad on boss fights, but outside of that, kinda garbage for 3 talents in tier 7. Endurance doesn't feel like a complete waste anymore, although wish the 1% agility came over with the change, even if it was just present when it was 2/2. Here's hoping for that offensive boost to Lightning Reflexes to show its head soon.
Happy with the changes to combat overall.
How's mut looking raid wise with Deadly Brew not tossing out a DP on IP anymore?
Edit: Just checked mmo-champion to see the other class changes when I noticed this under rogue as well.
Figured TotT would get a cost eventually, just glad its not higher tbh. Gouge nerf for PvP wasn't needed, maybe they'll add in a minor glyph or something that removes the CP generation on it.
Also links to our new T7 for both 10/25 mans. Liking that set bonus, model kinda iffy on, looks more like plate, but still at least decent looking.
10 man
25 man
Not really seeing any kind of correlation between the stats as far as a blanket +% or itemization lvl to the gear. Wonder if this'll be changed.
Edited, Sep 20th 2008 2:32am by Malithar
Happy with the changes to combat overall.
How's mut looking raid wise with Deadly Brew not tossing out a DP on IP anymore?
Edit: Just checked mmo-champion to see the other class changes when I noticed this under rogue as well.
MMO-Champion wrote:
Skills
Combat
* Gouge awards one combo point once again.
Subtlety
* Tricks of the Trade now costs 15 energy.
Combat
* Gouge awards one combo point once again.
Subtlety
* Tricks of the Trade now costs 15 energy.
Figured TotT would get a cost eventually, just glad its not higher tbh. Gouge nerf for PvP wasn't needed, maybe they'll add in a minor glyph or something that removes the CP generation on it.
Also links to our new T7 for both 10/25 mans. Liking that set bonus, model kinda iffy on, looks more like plate, but still at least decent looking.
10 man
25 man
Not really seeing any kind of correlation between the stats as far as a blanket +% or itemization lvl to the gear. Wonder if this'll be changed.
Edited, Sep 20th 2008 2:32am by Malithar
RIP Mutilate
I wish I had gotten a Mace instead of a Dagger the last time I was grinding honor =/
I wish I had gotten a Mace instead of a Dagger the last time I was grinding honor =/
I still get the feeling that Mut will still be the new PvE build, though with the nerf to HFB, it's a lot less viable in PvP, especially with the Filthy Tricks buff.
And yeah, I already posted those changes to Gouge and TotT.
Edited, Sep 19th 2008 11:42pm by Theophany
And yeah, I already posted those changes to Gouge and TotT.
Edited, Sep 19th 2008 11:42pm by Theophany
http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t27244-rogue_roguecraft_spreadsheet/p6/#post902397
Yah, Mut even when nerfed still appears to be superior to Combat. According to Vulajin, by 15%.
Edited, Sep 20th 2008 4:46am by Elustriel
Yah, Mut even when nerfed still appears to be superior to Combat. According to Vulajin, by 15%.
Edited, Sep 20th 2008 4:46am by Elustriel
Hmmm... Muti isn't dead yet. Not by a long shot. From what I can tell it seems that 51/13/7 and 20/51/0 are the two builds Blizz wants us to consider for heavy raiding. The cycles make sense in both builds and provide CBs and Energy enough to perform well. The conversation at EJ appears to agree with this perception.
I haven't tested the builds in the new ptr set up, but I doubt too much will change the base idea that Blizz wants us to have more than one credible raid build.
Relax folks, adjustments will continue until their happy with the balance between the two. :)
*edit: small fix
Edited, Sep 20th 2008 2:31am by TherionSaysWhat
I haven't tested the builds in the new ptr set up, but I doubt too much will change the base idea that Blizz wants us to have more than one credible raid build.
Relax folks, adjustments will continue until their happy with the balance between the two. :)
*edit: small fix
Edited, Sep 20th 2008 2:31am by TherionSaysWhat
TherionSaysWhat wrote:
Hmmm... Muti isn't dead yet. Not by a long shot. From what I can tell it seems that 51/13/7 and 20/51/0 are the two builds Blizz wants us to consider for heavy raiding. The cycles make sense in both builds and provide CBs and Energy enough to perform well. The conversation at EJ appears to agree with this perception.
I haven't tested the builds in the new ptr set up, but I doubt too much will change the base idea that Blizz wants us to have more than one credible raid build.
Relax folks, adjustments will continue until their happy with the balance between the two. :)
*edit: small fix
Edited, Sep 20th 2008 2:31am by TherionSaysWhat
I haven't tested the builds in the new ptr set up, but I doubt too much will change the base idea that Blizz wants us to have more than one credible raid build.
Relax folks, adjustments will continue until their happy with the balance between the two. :)
*edit: small fix
Edited, Sep 20th 2008 2:31am by TherionSaysWhat
7/51/13 is performing better than 20/51/0 at the moment, even if it's minimal damage differences (5 DPS out of 3000+).
Hmm, did the new racials ever get updated on here?
I don't remember if they were sticking with it, but humans were getting a "free pvp trinket" as our racial (Every Man for Himself. shared CD with a pvp trinket, 2 min), and the "Fall of Humanity" effect was being added to NE's Shadowmeld.
I don't remember if they were sticking with it, but humans were getting a "free pvp trinket" as our racial (Every Man for Himself. shared CD with a pvp trinket, 2 min), and the "Fall of Humanity" effect was being added to NE's Shadowmeld.
Wow, they didn't pull any punches on HFB. It's still nice for 1v1, I guess, but I don't really see it as being worth it for group pvp.
5 posts
TherionSaysWhat wrote:
Hmmm... Muti isn't dead yet. Not by a long shot. From what I can tell it seems that 51/13/7 and 20/51/0 are the two builds Blizz wants us to consider for heavy raiding. The cycles make sense in both builds and provide CBs and Energy enough to perform well. The conversation at EJ appears to agree with this perception.
I haven't tested the builds in the new ptr set up, but I doubt too much will change the base idea that Blizz wants us to have more than one credible raid build.
Relax folks, adjustments will continue until their happy with the balance between the two. :)
*edit: small fix
Edited, Sep 20th 2008 2:31am by TherionSaysWhat
I haven't tested the builds in the new ptr set up, but I doubt too much will change the base idea that Blizz wants us to have more than one credible raid build.
Relax folks, adjustments will continue until their happy with the balance between the two. :)
*edit: small fix
Edited, Sep 20th 2008 2:31am by TherionSaysWhat
I guess my question then would be: Where are the 51 pts in Assass. going? There's still so much going on in the top tiers that I'm having a hard time deciding. I know that nothing is set in stone, but it's easier to figure out down the road when I have an understanding of where things stand for the time being. MP sounds great, but the chances of the buff being pointless in a raid are pretty high. I'd hate to have to repsecc for just 3 pts depending on raid setup. So perhaps TtT is a better choice all around. What about the diminishing returns on the pts. in SF. Would it be better to go 3/5 and put those extra pts in something else for utility?
I'm not trying to get people to make my decisions for me, this is more like thinking out loud. I respect most of the opinions here, so mostly looking for feedback.
Did they decide not to make sap good?
spdr wrote:
Did they decide not to make sap good?
How is sap not better? You can still sap beasts, demons, dragonkin, and maybe some others at level 71, when you get the new rank.
Edit: and this is how I'd spend 51 points in Assassination. I don't really see how you could want anything different, as these will put out the highest DPS.
I doubt we'll see Envenom as a finisher anymore, though who knows right now.
Edited, Sep 20th 2008 11:32pm by Theophany
47 posts
For those who doesn't know yet the pvp glove bonus has been changed from..
Equip: Causes your Deadly Throw ability to interrupt spellcasting and prevent any spell in that school from being cast for 3 sec.
to..
Equip: Reduces the cost of your Kick by 10.
Now this is a REALLY big nerf if you ask me but I do agree with blizzard tho that it was to powerful to be a equip bonus on gloves.
/Discuss.
Equip: Causes your Deadly Throw ability to interrupt spellcasting and prevent any spell in that school from being cast for 3 sec.
to..
Equip: Reduces the cost of your Kick by 10.
Now this is a REALLY big nerf if you ask me but I do agree with blizzard tho that it was to powerful to be a equip bonus on gloves.
/Discuss.
They put the deadly throw silence ability into the combat tree (strange choice imo). I would rather have a shorter kick CD than energy reduction, but thats just me. Also seems weird that something you wear on your hands effects your feet abilities but nm. Still looking at combat tree and seeing some very nice pvp talents but nothing that even makes me consider using it as a pvp tree. The silencing effect was quite powerful, especially when ShS, CoS and other crucial CD's weren't up the ability to use this and interrupt them, do some hefty damage AND slow them down was very nice. But again it seems were losing another Mage killing ability. We can no longer interrupt from a distance and we can no longer ShS when frozen, also a nerf against restokins.
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