Official Beta Changes and Discussion [updated 9/19/08]Follow

To be completely honest, WotF did get a pretty huge nerf. Not having 5 secs of immunity from fear after using WotF just means that a lock is going to chain cast fear. You WotF the first, then immediately the second lands.

Yeah you get out of a fear and start DRs, but that hardly matters in any sort of long arena match (which if you're a healer/DPS setup in arena, the match will be long against a lock team, unless it's lock/rogue).

Holy double post batman.

Edited, Sep 8th 2008 12:24pm by Kavekk

I may be partial, I am a gnome rogue (failed at the log in screen i suppose but maybe not anymore=)) but the nerf to WOTF seems to take it from a great, game breaking racial to a good one. In comparison to escape artist, they both get you out of set CC ability and can start DR. So in that respect Undead are more like Gnomes on the racial front. A good, solid ability that if used right basically gives you another trinket. I find it a fair nerf.

As for perception, wowowowoww (had to noob it up there). 1 effective stealth detection may be a bit harsh but I cant say I will complain, nor will I be bothered by those who do. Not sure the best course of action here, I assume Blizzard is trying to make Alliance vs Horde on somewhat equal grounds via these changes for arena. If thats the case, a nerf to WOTF and perception can be obvious, but i think percept may have been hit a bit too hard.

Instead of QQing, what would be a decent nerf to perception since its obviously getting hit that is not as extreme as it is now?

I was wondering about that myself... But I've come to the conclusion that it either needs to be like ~3 effective levels (which is pretty OP) or remain an activated ability. If it remains an activated ability, the effect needs to remain large or it'll suck anyway. Basically, following my own theory, I end up with the current perception.

Perhaps a compromise between the two would be an idea? As in... make is an activated ability, give it 2 (or 3) levels stealth detection, and lower the CD to say, a minute. That should make sure Human Rogues do not always automatically get the opener anymore, but it does give them a pretty fair chance to do so. On a sidenote (yes, I love sidenotes), isn't 2 or 3 levels about the same as a Warlock's paranoia?

It is in the notes regarding all the major changes to the trees. They are combining Fist and Dagger spec and calling it Close Quarters Combat. It will still give the 5% crit.

So, Fleet Footed now reduces the duration of movement impairing effects on you by 50%. Anybody has a clue how this will work in combination with
Master Poisoner, versus specifically an enemy rogues' Crippling Poison? Will they 'stack' and end up being 75%, or will they stack and end up being (50+50=)100%?? Or will they not stack at all? And what about a Troll's Voodoo Shuffle in combination with either of the too?

Also, I've updated my calculator, though it doesn't seem to be needed much anymore right now. Changes listed here;
http://wow.allakhazam.com/wiki/Beta_Patch_Notes_(WoW)#Rogues
are now included. Some icon changes applied as well, only one that is now off is (I believe) the one for Close Quarters Combat.

Edited, Sep 11th 2008 2:16pm by Mozared

Edited, Sep 11th 2008 2:16pm by Mozared

Less QQ humans, more...nearly identical undead racial, cept for the shared CD.

Source

So basically if the game is under 20 seconds WotF is better, and if not, the human racial is better?

Yeah, humans are still the dominant race. Cry more. Maybe they'll take if off cooldown with the PvP trinket so you really can roll your face in PvP.

Well, that's what I thought, until I noticed the following line in the patch notes;



So assuming you missed that line; what is it? Still 30% and a typo or did the ability actually got changed?

The background dl is up.

I few questions from an interested non-rogue. Most of them have to do with Mut, since I pretty much know combat from BC raiding.

I've heard mixed things about Muti rotations in PvE. I've heard numerous people talk about 5s/5r, but considering how "close" 5s/5r/5e are right now, isn't a 5r/5e (or something similar) possible with CttC? My guess would be that they just can't read CttC, but wanted to make sure.

Standard build: I'm not sure on how important a few talents are. I assume 7 in Sub and 10 in Combat, but beyond that I'm not 100% sure. This is what I came up with. I boosted poisons a lot, not sure if that's me showing how ignorant I am or not. I'd assume dual Instant with Deadly Brew, Vile, Infectious and Imp Poisons to try and turn poison into a significant chunk of damage. Problem areas that I'm not sure about:
- Vigor. I'm kind of doubtful that it's worth it, but at first glance it just seems so good. Probably because I'm not used to having an energy bar.
- Blood Splatter/Imp Evisc. Being that finishers don't make up an incredibly large amount of total damage output (well, as BC Combat >.>) I'm reluctant to put points into these, but again, not knowledgeable enough to know for sure. One of the poison-improving talents seems like the first place to take from in order to get one/both of these.
- Turn the Tables. 6% crit on Mut only doesn't seem that outstanding to me, but again it feels like I have to be missing something.
- ImpSnD. Assuming a 5r/5e rotation, I would *think* 21 seconds is enough to keep SnD from dropping, but don't know well enough.

On Eviscerate versus Rupture versus Envenom:
I threw together some Naxx10 gear from WoWhead. Using gear alone, it's at 760-ish agility, 1520 raw AP, and 370 crit rating. I'm not including the base stats that a level 80 rogue has, which I assume will even out with people still having a few blues in their gear (hopefully that's not a huge mistake). Throw in buffs, and we get roughly:
1120 agility (760 base + 178 SoE + 30 scroll + 52 MotW, Kings)
35.5% crit (agility + 8% rating + 1% SoE + 5% LotP/Rampage + 8% talents)
3880 AP (agility + base + 196 SoE + 688 Might/BS, Unleashed Rage)
Using that, and then mutiplying in a BM hunter and EW:
Eviscerate: 6275dmg pre-armor (7240 with Glyph, 7533 talented, 8690 glyph/talented)
Rupture: 3255 base, 4230 Mangle (5550 mangle + glyph, 5500 mangle + talent, 7215 mangle + glyph + talent)
Envenom: 3900 base, 4410 Eclipse/CoE, 5645 Eclipse + Stormstrike (Can anyone tell me if Envenom is counted as a "spell" for Winter's Chill?)

Fully glyphed and talented, Eviscerate needs a boss to have 16% or less damage reduction to beat Rupture; untalented but Glyphed is anything below about 25%. Envenom increasing the likelihood of Instant Poison going off for 6 seconds shouldn't be discounted, but the loss of a stack of Deadly might hurt it a lot, but I don't have the rogue knowledge to figure out if Envenom is viable.
As in BC, Rupture scales better with raw AP than Eviscerate (30% of AP instead of Eviscerate's 25%, up to almost 40% Glyph'ed).

Now to throw a weird spec out there: What about a 53/5/13 or something similar, boosting Rupture by a further 30% and giving some armor penetration in the process? I highly doubt it would make up for the loss of 5% hit from Combat, but thought is was interesting anywho. (Side note: Sub rogues getting an extra 30% to Rupture will be awesome for chewing through warriors).
~~~~~~~End Finisher Theory

I assume slow/fast for a Mutilate build, considering Focused Attacks and that mut rogues will be using Instant/Instant (I assume, at least). That a correct assumption? I would assume more poison procs and more energy would outweigh the damage boost of Mut.

Finally, a weird question: would the increased Instant Poison procs of using fast/fast (say, 1.5/1.4 or similar) make up for Mutilate damage loss? I wouldn't think so, but I like asking weird questions. (Apology in advance for just creating 10-15 threads in the next 2 years where Theo has to yell at people for using fast/fast as Mut).

... my few short questions turned into walloftext D:

EDIT: 2000th post? :O

Edited, Sep 15th 2008 3:41pm by lsfreak

Source

Yeah except with the buff to Focused Attacks, Muti is definitely the raid spec for WotLK, so it doesn't matter.

But now I have to change my Mut raid spec in the sticky again (though I guess I'll wait for the wowhead calculator to change since I don't want people being like, "HAY THEO Y IS DIS").