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Come WotLK content patch, what spec'll you all go?Follow
and you're not providing any evidence that it's needed either, so who could be right.. the arrogant theorycrafter who's studied this stuff to much, or the guy who just wants to buff his damage more?
Better question: What's more stupid: Wanting to get scaling for something that could plausibly be done, or claiming it's OP without any real reasoning?
My idea:
I think the most beneficial way would be for DoTs to have a time reduction similar to normal cast time reduction. Example, say you have enough haste to remove 0.5 seconds from a 2.5 second cast, making it 2 seconds. That is 20% of the cast duration. A removal of 20% of, say, Curse of Agony would be 24/5, or 4.8 seconds, reducing it to a duration of 19.2 seconds. UA would be 12 seconds. I don't see how this is OP at all, assuming DoTs still have the same number of ticks per cast. If haste is stackable beyond the GCD limit, nerf the duration down to half of what the haste amount it. CoA would be 21.6 seconds, and UA would be 13.5 seconds.
Also, unless my math is completely off base, I must be going somewhere with it, right? The only real problem with it is implementing the coding for it.
My idea:
I think the most beneficial way would be for DoTs to have a time reduction similar to normal cast time reduction. Example, say you have enough haste to remove 0.5 seconds from a 2.5 second cast, making it 2 seconds. That is 20% of the cast duration. A removal of 20% of, say, Curse of Agony would be 24/5, or 4.8 seconds, reducing it to a duration of 19.2 seconds. UA would be 12 seconds. I don't see how this is OP at all, assuming DoTs still have the same number of ticks per cast. If haste is stackable beyond the GCD limit, nerf the duration down to half of what the haste amount it. CoA would be 21.6 seconds, and UA would be 13.5 seconds.
Also, unless my math is completely off base, I must be going somewhere with it, right? The only real problem with it is implementing the coding for it.
I think we should get Lasers and energy shields. Plus the ability to spot gnomes from great distances and nuke em with the GnomeSplat spell.
All of this is very interesting (no really), guys, but what it all boils down to is changing the way you play your 'lock. Some will like it and stay with it, some will hate it and change.
A raid will ALWAYS want 'locks along. Even if it's only for damage. But I really doubt that'll be the case anyway.
All of this is very interesting (no really), guys, but what it all boils down to is changing the way you play your 'lock. Some will like it and stay with it, some will hate it and change.
A raid will ALWAYS want 'locks along. Even if it's only for damage. But I really doubt that'll be the case anyway.
Thing is, Haste DOES help affliction, for the reasons pointed out. Less GCD=get your DoTs up faster=more SBs, and the SBs are faster due to haste also. Also, it is quite apparent to me that SB will STILL be 40-60% of an Affliction Locks damage. With talents like Eradication, improving our casting speed on SB even further for having DoTs up, Everlasting Corruption, so we don't have to refresh it, therfore getting more SB time and haste allowing us more SB time, I see that 40-60% going up, to at least 55%+. Therefore, Haste allows us to get more SBs in, and SBs do scale extremely well with Haste. So over half our damage will definately scale with Haste, as for the other half, we have talent like Pandemic to help our DoT's scale better with gear.
With the probably insane numbers of Spell Dam and +Crit that we will be seeing in Naxx(My guess is that 35-40% crit will not be too uncommon, seeing as some Sunwell Lock's already approach the 35% mark), Pandemic and Haunt will make up the difference easily, putting us on par with the Destro guys, especially with a Felhound out, damage dealing mana battery. Destro doesn't get a mana battery, so after they life tap, they may have to use another GCD for HS/Pot or even spend time bandaging, we won't. All these factors bring Destro and Affliction on par already, if DoTs scaled with Haste more than they already do, that would put Affliction way over the top and they'd have to tone down the DoTs.
Now that I am in the beta, hopefully I can get into a Naxx run next week, hopefully there will be a lock of opposite spec from me to compare to, and hopefully there are functional damage meters for the beta, and I can show you some real evidence to support Jenova's Maths(that I know are right).
With the probably insane numbers of Spell Dam and +Crit that we will be seeing in Naxx(My guess is that 35-40% crit will not be too uncommon, seeing as some Sunwell Lock's already approach the 35% mark), Pandemic and Haunt will make up the difference easily, putting us on par with the Destro guys, especially with a Felhound out, damage dealing mana battery. Destro doesn't get a mana battery, so after they life tap, they may have to use another GCD for HS/Pot or even spend time bandaging, we won't. All these factors bring Destro and Affliction on par already, if DoTs scaled with Haste more than they already do, that would put Affliction way over the top and they'd have to tone down the DoTs.
Now that I am in the beta, hopefully I can get into a Naxx run next week, hopefully there will be a lock of opposite spec from me to compare to, and hopefully there are functional damage meters for the beta, and I can show you some real evidence to support Jenova's Maths(that I know are right).
k, firstly you don't know how haste works. a 2second SB may be a 20% reduction in cast time, but it's not 20% haste. it's actually 25% haste as the formula is [cast-time] / [1+haste in decimals]
have you also ever thought of the implications of trying to keep a remotely accurate dot rotation going AND getting in some SBs inbetween the recasts?
now with 25% haste we can presume corrupion is up 100% of the time, CoA though goes to a a 19.2 duration with ticks every 2.4 seconds, SL becomes a 24sec duration with ticks every 2.4 seconds, immolate and UA go to a 12sec duration and also tick every 2.4 seconds. how fun having lost 2.2 seconds between the 15sec durations and CoA, and 3 seconds between the 15sec durations and SL, the end result is you're getting off 2 less SBs per rotation for a 25% bonus to each dots dps... now do you really think that makes up for the loss of minimum, 2 SBs per rotation?
POST EDIT
grats lathias :) get us some nice screenies too. you know of the stuff people wouldn't usually take screenies of, but you know we'd all like to see :)
Edited, Sep 12th 2008 1:23pm by Jenovaomega
have you also ever thought of the implications of trying to keep a remotely accurate dot rotation going AND getting in some SBs inbetween the recasts?
now with 25% haste we can presume corrupion is up 100% of the time, CoA though goes to a a 19.2 duration with ticks every 2.4 seconds, SL becomes a 24sec duration with ticks every 2.4 seconds, immolate and UA go to a 12sec duration and also tick every 2.4 seconds. how fun having lost 2.2 seconds between the 15sec durations and CoA, and 3 seconds between the 15sec durations and SL, the end result is you're getting off 2 less SBs per rotation for a 25% bonus to each dots dps... now do you really think that makes up for the loss of minimum, 2 SBs per rotation?
POST EDIT
grats lathias :) get us some nice screenies too. you know of the stuff people wouldn't usually take screenies of, but you know we'd all like to see :)
Edited, Sep 12th 2008 1:23pm by Jenovaomega
I didn't actually say 20% haste, just 20% reduction in cast time. Also, keeping the accurate DoT duration wouldn't be any different from now, it'll just be sooner. the timers themselves will still coincide with each other and there will still be sbolts and haunt applied in the meantime. though i do see what you're saying. All that does is make dot durations scaling with haste need to be tuned in order for it to work properly. however, unlike you claims to be OP, it doesn't make it OP.
A suggestion was made on the WoW forums for a haste->spellpower ratio (applies to all healing classes with HoTs too), which would also be a beneficial scaling for haste and HoTs/DoTs. what are your ideas on that?
after all, after you get your 1.5s casts (including instants) down to a 1s GCD, then dots no longer scale with haste. with gear and several raid buffs, chances are you are GOING to be at 1s GCD much of the time, which means dots pretty much don't scale with haste anymore.
A suggestion was made on the WoW forums for a haste->spellpower ratio (applies to all healing classes with HoTs too), which would also be a beneficial scaling for haste and HoTs/DoTs. what are your ideas on that?
after all, after you get your 1.5s casts (including instants) down to a 1s GCD, then dots no longer scale with haste. with gear and several raid buffs, chances are you are GOING to be at 1s GCD much of the time, which means dots pretty much don't scale with haste anymore.
we won't get to a 1second gcd with passive haste and constant buffs as that'd require 50% haste, which is 789 rating at lvl.70, so probably close to 1000 rating at 80... lol. the haste > spell ratio thing though... what do you mean? do you mean have them affect each other directly? or do you just mean "how much haste is 1 +dmg worth?" in which case, it depends on spec and current gear levels.. though currently for a 0/21/40 lock of above average gear, 1+dmg is equal to roughly 1.3+haste until you hit 25% spell haste, at which point they become about equal.
another thing is that haste has certain points where it becomes useful, and prior to that it's actually pointless to equip it.
with 0/21/40 shadow, there is only 2 important values. 5% haste (the start point, below which it's pointless to equip it)and 25% haste, the point SB becomes a 2sec cast and the point where +dmg is equal to / of greater importance than haste.
with 0/21/40 fire though, the important ratings are something like... 7%, 14%, 21.. all being the point where you can fit 1 additional incinerate in the rotation before recasting immolate (again, not exact figures... i've got them posted somewhere on the forums and on a piece of paper somewhere on my desk... lol)
so what do you mean with 'ratio'?
another thing is that haste has certain points where it becomes useful, and prior to that it's actually pointless to equip it.
with 0/21/40 shadow, there is only 2 important values. 5% haste (the start point, below which it's pointless to equip it)and 25% haste, the point SB becomes a 2sec cast and the point where +dmg is equal to / of greater importance than haste.
with 0/21/40 fire though, the important ratings are something like... 7%, 14%, 21.. all being the point where you can fit 1 additional incinerate in the rotation before recasting immolate (again, not exact figures... i've got them posted somewhere on the forums and on a piece of paper somewhere on my desk... lol)
so what do you mean with 'ratio'?
Basically, what I'd meant was a way for haste to convert into spellpower when it comes to DoTs and HoTs (to provide for all classes that have them .... except warriors cos lolrend).
actually you might want to check the buffs to rend, it's ALMOST worthwhile... lol and I see what you mean, if there was anything that'd be 'plausable'... I think it'd be to have haste rating affect the coefficients of the DoT ability, so, sticking with the 25% haste I've been using in figures, 25% increased haste would mean corruption goes from a 90% coefficent to a 112.5% coefficient. coD from a 200% to a 250% etc... across the board for each dot. the issue is deciding whether or not their gcd/cast time is still decreased by the haste... though imo it should be as this type of effect to the coefficients doesn't lead to a massive damage bonus, even with massive levels of +dmg... though spells like fireball, immolate and other spells with a direct damage and dot may need to have the coefficient bonus halfed, same way as drain life gets a 50% reduction in coefficient due to healing too.
POST EDIT
i quite like this idea, so I've posted it here:
http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=5840494629&postId=58395892584&sid=1#0
Edited, Sep 12th 2008 9:48pm by Jenovaomega
POST EDIT
i quite like this idea, so I've posted it here:
http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=5840494629&postId=58395892584&sid=1#0
Edited, Sep 12th 2008 9:48pm by Jenovaomega
Hm, I hadn't looked at rend.
Though, I'm curious as to those coefficients you brought up for Corruption and CoD there... are they just arbitrary numbers, or is there reasoning behind them?
As for Immolate, Holy Fire, Fireball, etc., yes, a cap on the haste coefficients to their damage should be made based on the coefficients of where the spellpower in those spells goes (this could, of course, provide a significant problem with Ignite, though). In the same way, HoTs should be affected by Haste in the same way (though, Lifebloom would probably be on the same coefficient restrictions as Immolate).
Oh, and bump that thread. :P I saw you only got one reply thus far.
Though, I'm curious as to those coefficients you brought up for Corruption and CoD there... are they just arbitrary numbers, or is there reasoning behind them?
As for Immolate, Holy Fire, Fireball, etc., yes, a cap on the haste coefficients to their damage should be made based on the coefficients of where the spellpower in those spells goes (this could, of course, provide a significant problem with Ignite, though). In the same way, HoTs should be affected by Haste in the same way (though, Lifebloom would probably be on the same coefficient restrictions as Immolate).
Oh, and bump that thread. :P I saw you only got one reply thus far.
CoD is, by default, a 200% coefficient (it's actually nerfed.. it should be 400%). and corruption is 90% (again nerfed.. should be like 110% naturally I think...). the increased changes I said were done using this formula:
Base coefficient* 1+haste rating in decimal points.
so.. corruption, 90% (0.9) with 25% spell haste (1.25)
0.9 * 1.25 = 1.125 coefficient OR 112.5%
Base coefficient* 1+haste rating in decimal points.
so.. corruption, 90% (0.9) with 25% spell haste (1.25)
0.9 * 1.25 = 1.125 coefficient OR 112.5%
Now that they finally fixed Demon form to essentially be warlock moonkin mode, I'll definately have at least 51 points in Demo.
I'm pretty certain it'll have a duration. probably 45 seconds with 5minute CD. having it as a perminant form would be rediclous... every lock would be demo for the rest of their life... lol
Basically the choice is short duration awesomeness or permanent suckage. Unfortunately the Demon is WAY too conspicuous to be permanent, having that thing running around Orgrimmar, standing at the AH etc would be like a halloween party.
At the minute I hate it for the 5mins CD, it's just too much to bear. 3mins I could get behind but 5... it's basically never up. It's a cooldown for boss fights and Rogues, that's it's purpose.
At the minute I hate it for the 5mins CD, it's just too much to bear. 3mins I could get behind but 5... it's basically never up. It's a cooldown for boss fights and Rogues, that's it's purpose.
being a 5min CD basically means.. generally 2 uses on bosses and once every 2-3 trash groups. so it's not that bad tbh.
Scholar
16 posts
After looking at the talents in the affliction tree for a while i really didnt need to look any further. I have been and will all ways desire to be affliction, so with some of the changed talents I pretty much got full wood when I saw some of the things being done in the aff tree. Based on what I saw it did look OP and I cant imagine those talents not getting nerfed alot.
One question, did i read the first corruption tallent right? Is it no longer instant because of everlasting aff?
One question, did i read the first corruption tallent right? Is it no longer instant because of everlasting aff?
nope. they changed corruption to be instant instead of being casted. the changed talent is the replacement and 20% bonus to damage ftw.
2 posts
i always spec into talent trees that help my buddy, may it be a pet or a demon.
soooo
http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=IcZcgIzogoAfsguAoV
soooo
http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=IcZcgIzogoAfsguAoV
2 posts
yes but that would be dumb. blizz shouldnt do that - that is having a boomkin spamming moonfire all day and doing uber dmge and us in Demon form doing good dmge for only 2 mins. not good.
soz for bad english :P
soz for bad english :P
I'm going to go with the same spec I'm using on the beta server. Affliction all the way to haunt, any extras to demonology. All those DOTs mean fast levelling (yes, even with a VW - you don't need a felguard or demon form at all) and kills with no damage to yourself. As a L71 on the beta, I'm able to take down L76 mobs with no problems (my VW might need to eat a few shadows, but I don't take any damage).
To tell the truth, I don't care if they nerfed demonology or destruction. I don't use either one, and feel perfectly capable of taking on anything.
Edited, Sep 26th 2008 6:29pm by ohmikeghod
To tell the truth, I don't care if they nerfed demonology or destruction. I don't use either one, and feel perfectly capable of taking on anything.
Edited, Sep 26th 2008 6:29pm by ohmikeghod
To tell the truth, your focus is PvE levelling. Most concerns focus around PvP viability and endgame raiding. It's spiffing that you don't care about 2/3rds of your fellow Warlocks, it must be liberating, but when you get jumped by a Shadow Dance Rogue I fear your delusions of invincibility will evaporate quite swiftly.
Sinstralis wrote:
To tell the truth, your focus is PvE levelling.
Yes it is.
Quote:
Most concerns focus around PvP viability and endgame raiding. It's spiffing that you don't care about 2/3rds of your fellow Warlocks, it must be liberating, but when you get jumped by a Shadow Dance Rogue I fear your delusions of invincibility will evaporate quite swiftly.
I'll never get jumped by a rogue. There is a reason I'm on a PvE server and don't PvP at all. It's to get away from e-peeners who like to do things like that. I'm of the firm belief that is WoW allowed PKing, PvPers would be the ones doing it. So tell me again why I should care about neanderthals who believe that testosterone plus adrenaline is a good thing.
Edited, Sep 27th 2008 7:04am by ohmikeghod
even on a pvp server, a pve leveling spec is a better idea. heck when tbc came out the horde and alliance held a truce for the first few weeks simply because everyone knew, if one person started killing the other, everyone would end up attacking everyone and nobody would get any leveling done.
@mike - you may not care, but it is a concern of people who don't level on PvE servers or are interested in PvP. If you don't care about PvP, that's your prerogative, but there's no reason to bash those that do. In the same respect, there is no reason to get high and mighty because others don't care about PvP.
On the other hand, I'm pretty sure there's a PvP zone, so it may still be a concern for PvEers (though I don't know if it's a PvP zone on PvE servers).
On the other hand, I'm pretty sure there's a PvP zone, so it may still be a concern for PvEers (though I don't know if it's a PvP zone on PvE servers).
Scholar
43 posts
Based on beta talent tree version 9014
Raiding specs:
ill be trying 56/0/15
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warlock=550000050000000000000000000350202021023510053510331351000000000000000000000000000
question about everlasting affliction concerning corruption:
says 5% of bonus spelldmg effects each tick basicly and that haunt and drain life reset the duration and not refresh the spell (in my eyes meaning its the same spell with the same +% dmg it builded up). Blizz usually is very kean on what they write in trees.
Does this mean corruption will keep gaining a little strenght in a 10 min fight? or will the effect be reset to 0% when the duration resets? (couldnt find a answer on this and i aint a beta tester)
or most likely a variant of 0/14/57 maybe with 5 points into imp. corruption depends on how well molten core works (does it have a proc chance on each tick or only on initial hit?) (maybe the spec jehova posted, this just seemed stronger to me)
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warlock=050332052200310513352303510000000000000000000000000000035003000300000000000000000
Some other points i would like answered:
-We will need more hit then before cause of scalling of lvl's dont we? (210 hit rating is a lower % on lvl 80 then it is on 70 right? same with crit i thought) In my opionion we will need like 300 hit on 80 to cap hit rating without pionts in talent tree to impove it but it will also be easier to optain cause of higher stats on lvl 80 gear.
-Do u think succubus will finally be pvp/arena viable cause of the imp. succubus point in demo tree 100% reduction on seduction cast time and 30% longer which seems fantastic dunno if there will be a cd on seduction though.
I think this can be pretty groundbreaking for a destruction pvp build (instant cc) and i think i would drop my felpuppy for this.
I was thinking about this build for pvp: 0/14/57
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warlock=052300152212313513350310510000000000000000000000000000205003310000000000000000000
(maybe with the 3 soul leech points into fel dom. and master summoner)
Lemme hear what u guys think about it.
Edited, Oct 2nd 2008 11:36am by Raqiel
Edited, Oct 2nd 2008 11:36am by Raqiel
Raiding specs:
ill be trying 56/0/15
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warlock=550000050000000000000000000350202021023510053510331351000000000000000000000000000
question about everlasting affliction concerning corruption:
says 5% of bonus spelldmg effects each tick basicly and that haunt and drain life reset the duration and not refresh the spell (in my eyes meaning its the same spell with the same +% dmg it builded up). Blizz usually is very kean on what they write in trees.
Does this mean corruption will keep gaining a little strenght in a 10 min fight? or will the effect be reset to 0% when the duration resets? (couldnt find a answer on this and i aint a beta tester)
or most likely a variant of 0/14/57 maybe with 5 points into imp. corruption depends on how well molten core works (does it have a proc chance on each tick or only on initial hit?) (maybe the spec jehova posted, this just seemed stronger to me)
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warlock=050332052200310513352303510000000000000000000000000000035003000300000000000000000
Some other points i would like answered:
-We will need more hit then before cause of scalling of lvl's dont we? (210 hit rating is a lower % on lvl 80 then it is on 70 right? same with crit i thought) In my opionion we will need like 300 hit on 80 to cap hit rating without pionts in talent tree to impove it but it will also be easier to optain cause of higher stats on lvl 80 gear.
-Do u think succubus will finally be pvp/arena viable cause of the imp. succubus point in demo tree 100% reduction on seduction cast time and 30% longer which seems fantastic dunno if there will be a cd on seduction though.
I think this can be pretty groundbreaking for a destruction pvp build (instant cc) and i think i would drop my felpuppy for this.
I was thinking about this build for pvp: 0/14/57
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warlock=052300152212313513350310510000000000000000000000000000205003310000000000000000000
(maybe with the 3 soul leech points into fel dom. and master summoner)
Lemme hear what u guys think about it.
Edited, Oct 2nd 2008 11:36am by Raqiel
Edited, Oct 2nd 2008 11:36am by Raqiel
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