So apparently a lot of the end talents for Holy for paladin are to encourage the paladin to be on the front lines, fighting and judging while healing. Now, I don't know about raid healing quite yet, but I know for instances at least, when you're in a tight spot, there's not much room for the paladin to be swinging their weapon and using judgments, its usually straight spamming heals.
Maybe I'm just a noob healer, I just barely got 70 go easy on me. :P
Anyways, one of the new 41 point talents is 'Enlightened Judgments' which increases your judge range (so you don't have to be *right* up front to whack them with judgments) and chance to hit with judgments.
Another is the 45 point talent 'Judgments of the Pure' which raises your casting and melee haste by up to 10% (for 5 talents) from using judgments.
Now:
a) Am I just 'doin it wrong' and should be letting the judgments fly and swinging my sword to refresh them anyways?
b) This is going to cause a basic shift to paladins being meleeing or at least spamming judgments inbetween heals
c) Blizzard is doing it wrong, these talents will be bypassed as useless in favor of more traditional healing methods
Edited, Aug 25th 2008 10:24am by digitalcraft
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Judging during healingFollow
Partially you're confused...judgments are debuffs that last a set amount of time in WotLK, not things refreshed by melee strikes, and the seal you're using only influences the damage at the moment of judging, not the effects of the judgment. Since Judgments can return health or mana to people hitting the judged mob, or stop them from fleeing, it would be perfectly reasonable to assume holy pallys will be throwing judgments while healing...judgment of light, in fact, will become an important component in a healadins ******** But note that this does NOT mean the healidin will be swinging away in melee range, just that they will be judging targets.
Paladin healing is completely changing. Anything you learn now will be obsolete with WotLK. Seals last 2 mins, and Judgments don't consume the seal. Plus, there are a whole bunch of other new mechanisms and spells. I wouldn't be surprised if you find yourself having to run into a mob once is a while to seal up on them. Then, run back to heal.
That being said - you are doing things correct for the way things are setup in TBC. Rarely will a healer use Judgments.
That being said - you are doing things correct for the way things are setup in TBC. Rarely will a healer use Judgments.
Tsarducci wrote:
Partially you're confused...judgments are debuffs that last a set amount of time in WotLK, not things refreshed by melee strikes, and the seal you're using only influences the damage at the moment of judging, not the effects of the judgment. Since Judgments can return health or mana to people hitting the judged mob, or stop them from fleeing, it would be perfectly reasonable to assume holy pallys will be throwing judgments while healing...judgment of light, in fact, will become an important component in a healadins ******** But note that this does NOT mean the healidin will be swinging away in melee range, just that they will be judging targets.
No, I know about all the changes to judgments.
The thing is: Judgment of Wisdom
"Unleashing this Seal's energy will judge an enemy for 20 sec, granting attacks and spells used against the judged enemy a chance to restore mana to the attacker. Your melee strikes will refresh the spell's duration. Only one Judgement per Paladin can be active at any one time." (Seals just add damage to your judgments, they don't add any debuff themselves)
So you have to be attacking the mob to keep the judgment up still if you're going to be using them. They *are* refreshed by melee strikes, and you will have to be swinging away in melee range or judging repeatedly.
Maybe they don't intend for holy paladins to keep the judgments up, but instead be spamming them. You get 30 seconds of 10% haste for each judgment. Maybe you're going to be rejudging instead of keeping them up with attacks? Or are you supposed to be swinging away while healing? Neither seems all that great right now, I don't think I'd get a swing in while spamming flashes of light.
My understanding is that we will be refreshing the judgments by casting them (since they have a 10s CD). Healadins are going to have a lot more spells to choose from, which is the intent. Since we'll have HoTs, I doubt we will be the spambots that we currently are.
My apologies, I was obviously conflating the reworked seal mechanics with the reworked judgment mechanics.
Yeah I see that as a possibility. How much range is 20 yards added to the normal judgment range? That makes it 30 total. For instance, a mage's fireball is 35, and frostbolt is 30, so in essence, judgment it seems *would* basically become a ranged spell as opposed to an in-your-face spell. Suddenly this talent sounds pretty good! :P
Judgments are 5% base mana. Is that going to be too expensive or is that about right? For instance, Flash of light is 7%, and paladins can basically spam that.
Well thanks for the opinions, I think that gives me an idea of some of the changes in playstyle for WotLK
p.s. Mageadin? y/n
Edited, Aug 25th 2008 2:43pm by digitalcraft
Judgments are 5% base mana. Is that going to be too expensive or is that about right? For instance, Flash of light is 7%, and paladins can basically spam that.
Well thanks for the opinions, I think that gives me an idea of some of the changes in playstyle for WotLK
p.s. Mageadin? y/n
Edited, Aug 25th 2008 2:43pm by digitalcraft
I tend to only judge on 2 occasions:
1. There is a Ret pala available to refresh my judgements with Crusader Strike.
2. The boss fight is of such that I can stand in Judgement range of the boss and not get one shotted. (Bear Boss in ZA is a good example)
One thing is though, in the case of number 2, I don't run in to melee in order to refresh my judgement, I stand at range and re-judge.
Also, JoW is the prefered Judgement I believe unless there is heavy raid damage involved in the fight. Saw some math somewhere which proved out that JoW increased raid dps.
1. There is a Ret pala available to refresh my judgements with Crusader Strike.
2. The boss fight is of such that I can stand in Judgement range of the boss and not get one shotted. (Bear Boss in ZA is a good example)
One thing is though, in the case of number 2, I don't run in to melee in order to refresh my judgement, I stand at range and re-judge.
Also, JoW is the prefered Judgement I believe unless there is heavy raid damage involved in the fight. Saw some math somewhere which proved out that JoW increased raid dps.
Quote:
Plus, there are a whole bunch of other new mechanisms and spells. I wouldn't be surprised if you find yourself having to run into a mob once is a while to seal up on them. Then, run back to heal.
I already do this with the current mechanics. Judgement of Justice & PUGs.
After wotlk you'll judge every 10 seconds like it's shaman's shocks. And the damage depends on the seal you have on. Seals last a while so you can seal SoR before the pull and spam JoW/JoL/JoJ at the targets in between heals.
It's likely you will not spam it so much anyway, just 1-2 per pull trough trash as if you were emulating a shaman doing totems and barely enough to keep it up during bosses. However this isn't shaman totems, this is a targeted spell, and to use it you have to switch targets to the mob and then back.
Might spam JoL to make healing easier. JoL is and has always been the paladin's HoT, it's just it never healed enough to be worth using but now it's going to be scalable so it MAY become good.
Edited, Aug 26th 2008 11:11am by xorq
Just throw a JoW or JoL at a boss every 15 seconds or so. The healing or mana returned will more than make up the GCD that you didn't even use because Judgment isn't on the GCD.
It's just awesome.
It's just awesome.
I thought I heard that Judgements will now be on the GCD. Can someone verify this?
Ehcks wrote:
Just throw a JoW or JoL at a boss every 15 seconds or so. The healing or mana returned will more than make up the GCD that you didn't even use because Judgment isn't on the GCD.
At first I only Judged against bosses like Attumen and Illhoof, where I stand within melee range of the boss while healing. For the last couple weeks though, I've been throwing JoL/JoW at an ever-increasing number of bosses, even when I have no intention of refreshing the judgment.
I try to get a Judgment up on Curator right before an evocation phase, knowing that everyone's going to whack away at him for the length of the judgement. In other fights it's largely a matter of convenience, e.g., you often end up running past Nightbane or High King anyway and it's pretty easy to put up a Judgment as you do so. The best I've found thus far though is judging Akil'zon during the storm/collapse phase, which might or might not get refreshed before we run back out. This leads me to think it might be possible (still dangerous though) to judge Shade of Aran when he pulls everyone into the middle.
The main motivation for this experimentation comes from the T5 2-piece set bonus which restores 50 mana to everyone in the party everytime the wearer casts a Judgement. I spent maybe a week complaining about what a useless bonus this is, before deciding to play around with it a bit whenever circumstances allow. At the very least, since the seal/judgment only cost 420-430 mana combined (without Ret talents), almost half the mana cost is a simple redistribution from me to the other healers/DPS before the judgment procs even once.
The only problem though is that I'm unlikely to find a "hard case" to test the value of the Judgment, since the harder the fight is, the less likely it is that I'll have the discretion to do something that's not quite obviously critical to the success of the battle. If something were to go wrong on a progression fight, the raid'll surely ask "what were you doing with Judgment, that could have been one more Flash of Light?!?" while no one really notices if the mages/hunters went an extra minute without knocking back a mana pot...
I believe you are correct, Judgements will be on the GCD. However, as Judgements will not consume the Seal you'll will not have to reseal after judging.
To Digitalcraft, Judging during healing -- as things stand now -- can be a risky business, particularly if you're not familiar with a fight or with what kind of damage your tank can handle. Once you're sure of both then by all means wade in and judge and swing away if you feel it's safe, otherwise it's best to remember what you're there for and stay out of it. Based on some of the talent changes in Wrath actively judging may be more desirable, and possibly even necessary.
To Digitalcraft, Judging during healing -- as things stand now -- can be a risky business, particularly if you're not familiar with a fight or with what kind of damage your tank can handle. Once you're sure of both then by all means wade in and judge and swing away if you feel it's safe, otherwise it's best to remember what you're there for and stay out of it. Based on some of the talent changes in Wrath actively judging may be more desirable, and possibly even necessary.
YJMark wrote:
I thought I heard that Judgements will now be on the GCD. Can someone verify this?
http://wotlkwiki.info/index.php/Paladin
The new Judgement of X spells will be on the GCD. Seals are 2 mins, and Judgeing does not remove the Seal anymore. Also of note, at least I haven't noticed anyone mention this yet: Crusader Strike will NO LONGER refresh all Judgements. It's not correct in the talent calculator, but it's mentioned in the changes.
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