My warrior is my newest alt, and I still try to understand the mechanics. One of the things I was thinking about was rage generation and weapon speed.
I took the formula from Wiki and tried to simplify it somewhat. I arrived at the following formula for rage generation per second (not per hit) - for main hand:
0.01365*dps + 1.75*(1+crit rate)
The "dps" is autoattack effective dps, and I am ignoring haste effects.
So, it looks like weapon speed has no influence on rage generation over time?
Second things is - for tank threat generation in a situation of limited rage - it looks like it would be better to use slow weapon, because devastate damage will be greater (and cost the same rage)? And the number of HS one can do is anyhow limited to the same value?
Or is it better to do HS with a faster weapon, because you lose rage from one small hit, instead of a larger one?
What about if you don't have rage for any HS (like possibly when offtanking Moroes)?
Please comment.
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Weapon speed and rage (and tanking)Follow
you're also ignoring hit and expertise, which have a huge effect on your tps and the rage you get from damage produced. for tank threat generation in a scenario of limited rage, it would be best to bring a rage pot and stack hit/expertise, assuming your mitigation/avoidance is up to par.
personally, i use the fastest weapon i can get (and most tanking weapons are sub-2.0 speed anyway). perhaps someone else can give you better maths on the subject.
personally, i use the fastest weapon i can get (and most tanking weapons are sub-2.0 speed anyway). perhaps someone else can give you better maths on the subject.
Well, that is certainly a good general advice, but it does not really address the weapon speed issue.
I hope for some more brainstorming.
:)
I hope for some more brainstorming.
:)
Hi
I dont know if this formula is correct.I assume it is as your more expirienced in the game from me :))
In that case rage is not affected by weapon speed.
But on the other hand I once tried a dagger and saw that rage was pumping up like hell in comparison to my 2 handed axe of 3.00 speed.How did this happend?
It might have to do (somehow) with how often you hit a mob as well and not only to the dps factor.Test this get a lvl 15 dagger and see what happends
Low on Rage:This can happen in the start of the pull or when you loose aggro.
I cant find any other option wher the tank has no rage.Normally if you re like Rocky Balboa and get beaten from one or 2 mobs you get rage.If you worry about the 1st , dont worry.If you loose aggro start worrying.
NO-NO-NO . I tried this : failure.Not able to tank due to lack of Rage with a slower weapon.Mobs fled from me and went to Dps and healer. Try to tank with a fast and with a slow weapon for yourself...
HS while tanking? If you got HS then you dont have that match talents in Protection tree wich means that tanking is VERY-VERY difficult. Unfortunatelly the only way to be an effective tank and get invited more from a lot and people and
(healers)stop complaining that you loose health sooo easy is changing to protec talent. Now if your not interested in that (I didnt too for a looong time) do the HS with a slow weapon (I think the benefits are better).
I dont know if this help.
Quote:
0.01365*dps + 1.75*(1+crit rate)= RAGE
I dont know if this formula is correct.I assume it is as your more expirienced in the game from me :))
In that case rage is not affected by weapon speed.
But on the other hand I once tried a dagger and saw that rage was pumping up like hell in comparison to my 2 handed axe of 3.00 speed.How did this happend?
It might have to do (somehow) with how often you hit a mob as well and not only to the dps factor.Test this get a lvl 15 dagger and see what happends
Quote:
second things is - for tank threat generation in a situation of limited rage
Low on Rage:This can happen in the start of the pull or when you loose aggro.
I cant find any other option wher the tank has no rage.Normally if you re like Rocky Balboa and get beaten from one or 2 mobs you get rage.If you worry about the 1st , dont worry.If you loose aggro start worrying.
Quote:
it looks like it would be better to use slow weapon
NO-NO-NO . I tried this : failure.Not able to tank due to lack of Rage with a slower weapon.Mobs fled from me and went to Dps and healer. Try to tank with a fast and with a slow weapon for yourself...
Quote:
Or is it better to do HS with a faster weapon
HS while tanking? If you got HS then you dont have that match talents in Protection tree wich means that tanking is VERY-VERY difficult. Unfortunatelly the only way to be an effective tank and get invited more from a lot and people and
(healers)stop complaining that you loose health sooo easy is changing to protec talent. Now if your not interested in that (I didnt too for a looong time) do the HS with a slow weapon (I think the benefits are better).
I dont know if this help.
dont use slower weapons.
first, a faster weapon will rage dump faster with heroic strike (which is incredibly useful in boss fights and multi mob pulls),
second your rage gain is too jagged and sharp. you need steadier rage.
for newer tanks innuro's blade is awesome for this reason.
anyways, devestate only uses 50% weapon damage, so it doesnt scale very well with weapon damage. i mean yes it will go up, but losing rage generation and steady dps to gain a small boost in devestate damage isnt worth it.
you should only be using heroic strike while tanking if your over ~40 or ~50 rage (depending on the situation).
or more if you need to save for spell reflect.
first, a faster weapon will rage dump faster with heroic strike (which is incredibly useful in boss fights and multi mob pulls),
second your rage gain is too jagged and sharp. you need steadier rage.
for newer tanks innuro's blade is awesome for this reason.
anyways, devestate only uses 50% weapon damage, so it doesnt scale very well with weapon damage. i mean yes it will go up, but losing rage generation and steady dps to gain a small boost in devestate damage isnt worth it.
you should only be using heroic strike while tanking if your over ~40 or ~50 rage (depending on the situation).
or more if you need to save for spell reflect.
Quote:
So, it looks like weapon speed has no influence on rage generation over time?
Yep. That's intentional.
Quote:
Second things is - for tank threat generation in a situation of limited rage - it looks like it would be better to use slow weapon, because devastate damage will be greater (and cost the same rage)? And the number of HS one can do is anyhow limited to the same value?
Yes and no. You're almost never in such a limited-rage situation where you can't throw in Heroic Strikes, and the bonus threat per rage on HS is much higher on a fast weapon than a slow one. It is more efficient to use a slow weapon if you're not getting hit pretty much at all, but if you are a fast one is better due to the HS difference.
Edit: OK, this was written before I read RPZips answer.
No no, HS as in Heroic Strike. What I mean here is that doing a Heroic Strike with a slow weapon costs you more than with a fast one, because HS takes away all the rage this swing *could* generate if it was a normal swing. Slow weapon -> big hits -> rage comes in big chunks. So rage/threat cost of a slow HS is higher than of the fast one (due to HS added threat which is only per hit).
However, in a low rage situation you don't perform any HS, so here the higher damage from slow weapon Devastate gives you more threat per rage.
As for the dagger example - if that was true, every tank would be using a dagger. They don't, exactly for the same reason I want to use a slower weapon - the Devastate damage with a dagger is too low (even more so because of the dagger normalized attack speed for instant attacks).
You don't use fast weapon because it gives you more rage - that I believe is just an illusion. You use faster weapon because it allows you to do heroic strikes more often, given unlimited rage. But I am questioning if that is a good idea to use fast weapon if you are starved.
Edited, Aug 26th 2008 5:41pm by Wytryszek
No no, HS as in Heroic Strike. What I mean here is that doing a Heroic Strike with a slow weapon costs you more than with a fast one, because HS takes away all the rage this swing *could* generate if it was a normal swing. Slow weapon -> big hits -> rage comes in big chunks. So rage/threat cost of a slow HS is higher than of the fast one (due to HS added threat which is only per hit).
However, in a low rage situation you don't perform any HS, so here the higher damage from slow weapon Devastate gives you more threat per rage.
As for the dagger example - if that was true, every tank would be using a dagger. They don't, exactly for the same reason I want to use a slower weapon - the Devastate damage with a dagger is too low (even more so because of the dagger normalized attack speed for instant attacks).
You don't use fast weapon because it gives you more rage - that I believe is just an illusion. You use faster weapon because it allows you to do heroic strikes more often, given unlimited rage. But I am questioning if that is a good idea to use fast weapon if you are starved.
Edited, Aug 26th 2008 5:41pm by Wytryszek
OK, I think I have a good understanding about the situation with HS. Thanks for the answers.
Heh, I started think about Cleave now. It has the same "rage eating" feature as HS, but now it doubles the full weapon damage. I wonder which weapon speed is better for it...
Heh, I started think about Cleave now. It has the same "rage eating" feature as HS, but now it doubles the full weapon damage. I wonder which weapon speed is better for it...
Faster weapons give what feels like a more steady increase in rage. But more importantly, you get rage from being hit while tanking, which is my mainstay of rage generation.
To second rp, weapon speed has nothing to do with rage generation over time.
A slower weapon for devastate isn't all that better. It does some better damage, but generally the innate threat of devastate is enough.
A faster weapon for HS, you lose less from losing an auto attack with a faster weapon with HS, and the innate threat of HS doesn't matter with weapon speed. If your OTing Moroes, I generally put on more to hit and expertise gear due to not getting hit as much in the face.
To second rp, weapon speed has nothing to do with rage generation over time.
A slower weapon for devastate isn't all that better. It does some better damage, but generally the innate threat of devastate is enough.
A faster weapon for HS, you lose less from losing an auto attack with a faster weapon with HS, and the innate threat of HS doesn't matter with weapon speed. If your OTing Moroes, I generally put on more to hit and expertise gear due to not getting hit as much in the face.
Devioususer wrote:
If your OTing Moroes, I generally put on more to hit and expertise gear due to not getting hit as much in the face.
If you're lucky enough to have him spawn, you can also tank Lord Crispin Ference (prot warrior) at the same time as Moroes. He really doesn't hit very hard at all on plate, and he helps a bit with rage starvation as an offtank. His abilities (whirlwind for ~3500 on cloth, kick, and shield wall) aren't all that dangerous.
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