Ok - I just tanked Ramps.... Our healer died. The mage died.... Clearly I need to improve.
Can anyone please tell me about the standard tank build and tactics. I am unable to link my Toon to the armory - But (if you'd look) I'm Borsock on Vashj. (For some reason its down...)
Please help...
My tactic is this....
CC, open, RD the skull, consecrate, then judge, seal... but the damn healer kept on dying...
Plz help....
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From the FAQ, http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/paladin/talents.html?0000000000000000000005005133500021525215510500500000000000000000
Open with Avenger's Shield, consecrate, Judgement a crusader on the skull, pull up righteousness and hit away? I'm not really a pro paladin, but that's what works for me in the lower levels (although I leave out Avenger's Shield).
Open with Avenger's Shield, consecrate, Judgement a crusader on the skull, pull up righteousness and hit away? I'm not really a pro paladin, but that's what works for me in the lower levels (although I leave out Avenger's Shield).
Are you tanking as a Protection spec or a Retribution Spec?
Retribution tanking works up to a certain point, even though Outlands, but requires that you're a decent amount higher level than the monsters you are fighting, primarily so you can hit and hold agro and also so your defenses can hold up.
Protection uses retroactive damage to maintain agro. Holy Shield and Retribution Aura coupled with Improved RF provides ample agro against melees, while Consecration and SoR/JoR handles any casters who don't wanna swing on you. If theres more than 1 caster in a social group, its best to try to CC one of em so you don't have to worry about keeping agro on 2 casters. When that's not an option - spam Consecration.
This method should mean the healer NEVER grabs agro... ever. What will grab agro? Slap-happy Focusfire DPS! Rogues, Huntards, and Mages - oh my! For these classes there are multiple options. If downing mobs quickly (as you are dying quickly) is integral, combine all your agro tactics at once on the focusfire mob 1 at a time and bring them down 1 by 1. If you can take the beating, try having your DPSers spread out their damage (AoE, Alternating targets, ect.)
A few other suggestions - as a Main Tank your job should not have to be to chase down healers. This includes SoJustice. It sounds high-and-mighty but fact of the matter is, that 'needs' to be one of the DPS/CCers jobs. Doesn't matter if its snares, roots, a curse, freezes, stuns, whatever... Initial agro is a huge part of healers going down, ***** the Justice!~
Retribution tanking works up to a certain point, even though Outlands, but requires that you're a decent amount higher level than the monsters you are fighting, primarily so you can hit and hold agro and also so your defenses can hold up.
Protection uses retroactive damage to maintain agro. Holy Shield and Retribution Aura coupled with Improved RF provides ample agro against melees, while Consecration and SoR/JoR handles any casters who don't wanna swing on you. If theres more than 1 caster in a social group, its best to try to CC one of em so you don't have to worry about keeping agro on 2 casters. When that's not an option - spam Consecration.
This method should mean the healer NEVER grabs agro... ever. What will grab agro? Slap-happy Focusfire DPS! Rogues, Huntards, and Mages - oh my! For these classes there are multiple options. If downing mobs quickly (as you are dying quickly) is integral, combine all your agro tactics at once on the focusfire mob 1 at a time and bring them down 1 by 1. If you can take the beating, try having your DPSers spread out their damage (AoE, Alternating targets, ect.)
A few other suggestions - as a Main Tank your job should not have to be to chase down healers. This includes SoJustice. It sounds high-and-mighty but fact of the matter is, that 'needs' to be one of the DPS/CCers jobs. Doesn't matter if its snares, roots, a curse, freezes, stuns, whatever... Initial agro is a huge part of healers going down, ***** the Justice!~
Yeah, I'm spec'd Prot.
My problem was mainly with the final boss in Ramps. As a main mage, I've never considered just how hard it is to maintain agro. I just assumed it wasn't a big deal to have the tank pull the mob/boss off me. It's not easy!
The issues with most of the run was pull order and or lack of CC. We had 2 mages, but we weren't keeping sheep up as much as we should. We all knew it, but ehhh...
The problem with the final boss was this -
We'd enter into the fight with the 2 guards. Down one, down the other, Boss drops. I'd pick up the boss easy - we'd get him close to down, then the dragon lands. I tried 3 tactics.
First (Fail) I simply RD the dragon, and went into my normal tank mode. (aka - Judge him and put up Righteousness, then drop Consecrate) He quickly jumped off me and on the healer. Healer Was properly at a distance (not sure if the 30% rule applies to ranged heals like it does for my mage's ranged DPS.)
Second (Fail) We had the Fury Warrior /taunt it, then I RD'd off of HIM, and tanked normally. Again - Jumped off me and down goes the priest. (Who was an S. Priest, but that's neither here-nor there...)
Third (Fail) Dragon lands, I BoP the healer, RD, tell mages to shoot at Boss (Leaving dragon alone) and have the Warrior Off-tank the Boss - While I wasted every bit of mana on agro'ing the dragon. Same damn thing - Healer drops dead...
Luckily these were all seasoned players and fights didn't occur, but other than the healer not being holy spec'd - It was clearly an agro issue.
I got and installed Omen. This tanking thing ain't easy...
My problem was mainly with the final boss in Ramps. As a main mage, I've never considered just how hard it is to maintain agro. I just assumed it wasn't a big deal to have the tank pull the mob/boss off me. It's not easy!
The issues with most of the run was pull order and or lack of CC. We had 2 mages, but we weren't keeping sheep up as much as we should. We all knew it, but ehhh...
The problem with the final boss was this -
We'd enter into the fight with the 2 guards. Down one, down the other, Boss drops. I'd pick up the boss easy - we'd get him close to down, then the dragon lands. I tried 3 tactics.
First (Fail) I simply RD the dragon, and went into my normal tank mode. (aka - Judge him and put up Righteousness, then drop Consecrate) He quickly jumped off me and on the healer. Healer Was properly at a distance (not sure if the 30% rule applies to ranged heals like it does for my mage's ranged DPS.)
Second (Fail) We had the Fury Warrior /taunt it, then I RD'd off of HIM, and tanked normally. Again - Jumped off me and down goes the priest. (Who was an S. Priest, but that's neither here-nor there...)
Third (Fail) Dragon lands, I BoP the healer, RD, tell mages to shoot at Boss (Leaving dragon alone) and have the Warrior Off-tank the Boss - While I wasted every bit of mana on agro'ing the dragon. Same damn thing - Healer drops dead...
Luckily these were all seasoned players and fights didn't occur, but other than the healer not being holy spec'd - It was clearly an agro issue.
I got and installed Omen. This tanking thing ain't easy...
Borsuk wrote:
My problem was mainly with the final boss in Ramps. As a main mage, I've never considered just how hard it is to maintain agro. I just assumed it wasn't a big deal to have the tank pull the mob/boss off me. It's not easy!
I believe every person should have a tank for just this reason, so they know exactly what the tank has to go through :)
As for that boss in Ramps: I honestly never really had much of a problem with him. What I do (normal when I ran it and Heroic now) is tank the orc around flames until the dragon makes his landing. Then I pretty much disregard the orc completely, since I should have PLENTY of aggro by that time for the DPS to finish him off and not pull, and just go to town on the dragon with my normal tanking rotation. Make sure everyone is by the "outlet" of that landing there, away from where the dragon will touch down, and keep yourself between them. When the dragon lands I generally don't taunt right away: I have Consecration down between me and the dragon so he runs through it and make sure my Judgement CD is up so I can hit him right away. This way also my taunt will be up just in case my initial threat isn't good enough.
Another thing, was the Priest shielding you as the dragon landed? From what I understand, PW:Shield causes a pretty significant amount of aggro, so he/she should not cast it during aggro sensitive moments like this.
Hope that helps some.
Didn't notice the PW:Shield.
I guess it's just growing pains. What sucks is trying to learn to tank in Outland content - cause no one really runs Old-World stuff. Many of my runs were OP, Over-level, or with a Booster.
I guess it's just growing pains. What sucks is trying to learn to tank in Outland content - cause no one really runs Old-World stuff. Many of my runs were OP, Over-level, or with a Booster.
I agree with you. It sucks that the old world "leveling instances" aren't run by groups so much anymore as they are by boosters as you called them. You get a lot of people that Ramparts is their first real instance, or at least first with that toon/spec, so it kinda feels like when you started out in Deadmines for the first time: only higher repair bills >.<
you need to lay off the RD! its not a threat building tool, its an aggro establishing ability. when you 1st pull you will already have aggro. save the RD for if someone pulls the aggro off you. its a long cooldown so save it.
that said, you need to be more specific with "normal tank mode". you dont have any mention of Holy Shield or Avengers Shield. are you buffed with Sanc? does your healer have Salv? Ret aura or Dev aura or Fire aura? Righteous Fury???
lastly, final boss in Ramps is tough on a lvl 60 PUG. a lvl 60 shadow priest will NOT be able to heal that alone. that boss is heavy fire dmg. if i were faced with that same group make up, i would have let the fury warrior tank while you and the SP heal him.
that said, you need to be more specific with "normal tank mode". you dont have any mention of Holy Shield or Avengers Shield. are you buffed with Sanc? does your healer have Salv? Ret aura or Dev aura or Fire aura? Righteous Fury???
lastly, final boss in Ramps is tough on a lvl 60 PUG. a lvl 60 shadow priest will NOT be able to heal that alone. that boss is heavy fire dmg. if i were faced with that same group make up, i would have let the fury warrior tank while you and the SP heal him.
Quote:
you need to lay off the RD! its not a threat building tool
I agree with this. RD should probably be saved for after you open up. Your risking it being down when you really need it. Also, if it is the initial agro your have problems with try JoR as soon as the target is in range. It took me a little bit to realize that it does not pay off to judge crusader right off the bat all the time, since it doesn't help threat until the next swing/tick/judgement CD.
So many more questions. Did the priest have Blessing of Salvation? As a shadow priest, they don't get the necessary threat reducing talent for healing, so big issue there. (someone mentioned this above)
As above, RD is an "Oh ****" taunt. RD only works when the mob is attacking another player and should only be used when judging a damage dealing seal doens't work. BoP is a good way to drop aggro, but then they have ot remember to cancel the aura.
Did you remember to recast Righteous Fury each time you went down?
To someone above, don't forget your Holy Shield. It does damage back, another tool.
As above, RD is an "Oh ****" taunt. RD only works when the mob is attacking another player and should only be used when judging a damage dealing seal doens't work. BoP is a good way to drop aggro, but then they have ot remember to cancel the aura.
Did you remember to recast Righteous Fury each time you went down?
To someone above, don't forget your Holy Shield. It does damage back, another tool.
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Vashj&n=Borsock
Things have greatly improved. I've run Ramps a few times.
1. I start of with the DPS with their respective buffs. If they pull agro, they get the Salv. Most like BoK. Some casters ask for BoW. One hunter I ran with insisted his Cat needed +STR.
2. Ok - the RD thing was new to me. I thought it added threat, not just pulled threat OFF someone. Lesson learned.
3. I try to open with Avenger's Shield. It really stacks well. I really didn't use my Linken's as much...
4. On big pulls, I will re-toss Avengers. I'm not sure if this is efficient though. I drop Consecration, but WoW - seeing those Yellow 400+ numbers... It just seems very safe for the DPS. (Is this a waste?)
5. Ok - if you check my gear. What should I be slotting - (Gem?) I want to be both cost effective, but tank effective. I try to gather +Stamina as I know that's what we need, but My realm is somewhat lame. (I'm not sure if we even opened the Sun Well Gem Vendor.... So it's not like we have a fluid market of Gems. Any advice?
Other than that - thanks for the advice. That RD thing... How'd I miss that one...
Things have greatly improved. I've run Ramps a few times.
1. I start of with the DPS with their respective buffs. If they pull agro, they get the Salv. Most like BoK. Some casters ask for BoW. One hunter I ran with insisted his Cat needed +STR.
2. Ok - the RD thing was new to me. I thought it added threat, not just pulled threat OFF someone. Lesson learned.
3. I try to open with Avenger's Shield. It really stacks well. I really didn't use my Linken's as much...
4. On big pulls, I will re-toss Avengers. I'm not sure if this is efficient though. I drop Consecration, but WoW - seeing those Yellow 400+ numbers... It just seems very safe for the DPS. (Is this a waste?)
5. Ok - if you check my gear. What should I be slotting - (Gem?) I want to be both cost effective, but tank effective. I try to gather +Stamina as I know that's what we need, but My realm is somewhat lame. (I'm not sure if we even opened the Sun Well Gem Vendor.... So it's not like we have a fluid market of Gems. Any advice?
Other than that - thanks for the advice. That RD thing... How'd I miss that one...
Taunt mechanics in WoW are not something that I particularly like.
A Taunt style spell will put you immediatly above the next person for threat and change the mob's target to you. Effectively, it means you have the same threat for all purposes (it doesnt overcome 30%) which guarantees that (if you aren't resisted) you can go from almost no threat to oodles (esp. in multi-tank encounters later on) by taunting. My preferred MMO taunt is something like Mocking Blow. It deals some threat, and forces the enemy to target you for a while.. after which it returns to its highest aggro target. No cheating by climbing all the way up the threat table with that.
Back on track.. because you effectively have the same threat.. make sure the person who pulled aggro backs off and you immediately judge your target to get a lead again. Judging and THEN taunting is a waste of mana and the GCD (well.. resealing is), taunting and THEN judging helps. But then NOT judging "incase" they pull aggro is a sure way to MAKE them pull aggro. Catch 22.
Edited, Aug 25th 2008 11:30pm by Losie
A Taunt style spell will put you immediatly above the next person for threat and change the mob's target to you. Effectively, it means you have the same threat for all purposes (it doesnt overcome 30%) which guarantees that (if you aren't resisted) you can go from almost no threat to oodles (esp. in multi-tank encounters later on) by taunting. My preferred MMO taunt is something like Mocking Blow. It deals some threat, and forces the enemy to target you for a while.. after which it returns to its highest aggro target. No cheating by climbing all the way up the threat table with that.
Back on track.. because you effectively have the same threat.. make sure the person who pulled aggro backs off and you immediately judge your target to get a lead again. Judging and THEN taunting is a waste of mana and the GCD (well.. resealing is), taunting and THEN judging helps. But then NOT judging "incase" they pull aggro is a sure way to MAKE them pull aggro. Catch 22.
Edited, Aug 25th 2008 11:30pm by Losie
Tossing AS mid battle will get you killed, you can not parry/block/dodge while casting.
Lord Justdistaint wrote:
Tossing AS mid battle will get you killed, you can not parry/block/dodge while casting.
The bold is true, but not necessarily the rest. It takes some experience, but there are times when re-casting Avenger's Shield is ok, or at least winding up to cast it. If you're ok on health, but not mana, you can wind up a cast to ensure you take some more damage. Works particularly well with more mobs. Similar to the sitting down method from another thread.
Anyway, it can be a very good idea to throw another Shield if you have caster mobs up since they won't be hitting you for HS and Ret Aura damage/threat. Also slower attacking mobs you can sometimes sneak in another Shield, but you really don't want to try under all circumstances. No reason to draw out that 1 second cast into a 7 second cast that winds up eating your health bar away ;)
1. This is generally what I do too, unless the DPS (OMG wat??) actually asks for Salv. I've been trying to cut down on my Salv use since finding out it will be removed in Wrath just so I can get used to it :)
2. <already explained in other posts>
3. Replace that Boomerang. There's no real use for it anymore, but the stamina, spell damage, whatever you can get from an Outland trinket will be invaluable in comparison.
4. <explained above :)>
5. You are not at the level where you really need to worry about a certain Defense or avoidance level so your best bet is to socket stamina. Once 70 you'll need to gem for Defense/avoidance at times to reach certain goals, but leveling you truly do not need to worry about those: stamina will get you by just fine. Also I wouldn't worry about rare/epic quality gems until you hit 70: it's just a waste of money on leveling items. Stick with green quality gems, or even those crappy vendor-bought gems.
I'm not sure what's up with your spell chain. Personally I don't judge that much and still end up on top.
Pull should go something like,Seal, Avengers Shield, Conceration, Judge, Seal.
Your deep in the prot tree so you didn't really miss anything there, though you are going to need to respec soon for the dodge in the ret tree.
My only advice is to get to the ah and find yourself some mace with +100 or more spell damage and then get some Sup Wiz Oil. Spell Damage is your agro and your's is at +90. Should be closer to +200.
Things to check. Blessing of Salvation? Is your Righteous Fury up? Keep that ret aura up.
GL
Pull should go something like,Seal, Avengers Shield, Conceration, Judge, Seal.
Your deep in the prot tree so you didn't really miss anything there, though you are going to need to respec soon for the dodge in the ret tree.
My only advice is to get to the ah and find yourself some mace with +100 or more spell damage and then get some Sup Wiz Oil. Spell Damage is your agro and your's is at +90. Should be closer to +200.
Things to check. Blessing of Salvation? Is your Righteous Fury up? Keep that ret aura up.
GL
Thanks for the advice.
I re-read some stuff and I think you are right that the gems for +Def/Agil/ Whatever (Other than STA) is really for Raids and Anti-Crushing-Blow. Oh well. The Gems were cheap... I'll keep it in mind going forward.
Lord Justdistaint - I think you are thinking too far ahead of me. I don't NEED to parry/dodge/etc at this point. My death isn't my problem - it's agro. You are 100% correct that it will remove a lot of my defenses - thus it would be a terrible move in most higher lvl situations.
Thanks all.
I re-read some stuff and I think you are right that the gems for +Def/Agil/ Whatever (Other than STA) is really for Raids and Anti-Crushing-Blow. Oh well. The Gems were cheap... I'll keep it in mind going forward.
Lord Justdistaint - I think you are thinking too far ahead of me. I don't NEED to parry/dodge/etc at this point. My death isn't my problem - it's agro. You are 100% correct that it will remove a lot of my defenses - thus it would be a terrible move in most higher lvl situations.
Thanks all.
Maulgak wrote:
Borsuk wrote:
My problem was mainly with the final boss in Ramps. As a main mage, I've never considered just how hard it is to maintain agro. I just assumed it wasn't a big deal to have the tank pull the mob/boss off me. It's not easy!
I believe every person should have a tank for just this reason, so they know exactly what the tank has to go through :)
As for that boss in Ramps: I honestly never really had much of a problem with him. What I do (normal when I ran it and Heroic now) is tank the orc around flames until the dragon makes his landing. Then I pretty much disregard the orc completely, since I should have PLENTY of aggro by that time for the DPS to finish him off and not pull, and just go to town on the dragon with my normal tanking rotation. Make sure everyone is by the "outlet" of that landing there, away from where the dragon will touch down, and keep yourself between them. When the dragon lands I generally don't taunt right away: I have Consecration down between me and the dragon so he runs through it and make sure my Judgement CD is up so I can hit him right away. This way also my taunt will be up just in case my initial threat isn't good enough.
Another thing, was the Priest shielding you as the dragon landed? From what I understand, PW:Shield causes a pretty significant amount of aggro, so he/she should not cast it during aggro sensitive moments like this.
Hope that helps some.
This is pretty much correct for tanking the last boss in Ramps. NEVER shield yourself or let the healer shield you. If you (the tank) are taking too much fire damage, switch your aura to fire resist for this fight. When the Orc gets down around 20% and the dragon starts to land, AS A TANK YOU NEED TO IGNORE THE ORC COMPLETELY! Run to the Dragon and consecrate, and then GET THE DRAGON TURNED AWAY FROM THE REST OF THE PARTY! The dragon should be on you, and you should be the only one taking fire damage from him. If he is facing the rest of the party, excessive damage ensues. Let the DPS finish off the orc and then they can start in on the dragon AFTER they have him down and you have firm aggro on the dragon and have him turned away from the rest of the party. With fire resist aura up and the fight positioned correctly, it is not bad at all.
It took me like 3-4 times practicing this fight to get it just right. If you MISS the dragon with your consecrate, he goes RIGHT FOR THE HEALER!
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