I was reading on the WOW WotLK website and it said, Death Knights will combine melee dps with some magic dps. So this got me thinking, will the new gear that will be brought in for the DK's be able to cross over for ret pallys to make them more viable for endgame raids? as ret pallys aslo combine melee dps with magic... just a thought
p.s.
Forgive my terrible spelling and grammar, im typing this up on my phone on my lunch break.
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pretty much yes...there will only 3 real sets of plate gear for the most part. tank set for prot warriors and pallies and tanking DK's; dps gear for dK, ret pallies, and ms/fury warrirs; and healing gear for holy pallies. all tanks are being designed to use the same stats and all plate dps will use the same gear. how they all use their stats will be part of what defines the classes/specs.
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tanking gear for pallies is different than warriors because they use spell damage for threat i thought
If i remember what's been said and posted in previous places about the new expansion, spell damage will be rolled into some other stat and won't be seen on armor. Plus from the sounds and looks of some of the new pally talents, a lot of the spell damage is already built into our tanking talents.
I do hope though that there is some sort of split between warrior tanking sets and pally/DK tanking sets so that it won't take a few thousand lucky runs to get a decent tanking set if your group ever has more than one plate wearing class
I do hope though that there is some sort of split between warrior tanking sets and pally/DK tanking sets so that it won't take a few thousand lucky runs to get a decent tanking set if your group ever has more than one plate wearing class
Serialthrill wrote:
tanking gear for pallies is different than warriors because they use spell damage for threat i thought
Currently this is partially true: we have the option of using "warrior" gear, or plate with spell damage on it. Come Wrath Death Knights, Warriors, and Paladins will (or at least should, if they balance things right) get the same benefit from the exact same gear for tanking. Blizzard wanted to cut down itemization issues so they are making what is considered "Warrior" tanking gear viable for all 3 plate wearers. Not only will stamina translate to spell damage for us in the expansion, but I believe our abilities will scale with strength/AP? I'll have t ogo read up on it more, so don't quote me, but all the same: gear meant for a Warrior will now simply be gear meant for a tank.
Brings up an interesting question though (thanks troll, your post got me thinking of this): how will tier sets differ? Will they simply be, basically, the same gear stat wise just with class specific bonuses? Or will Paladin gear still have some spell power or other distinguishing features that make it more than a simple copy cat set? Something I've been wondering ...
Edited, Aug 25th 2008 2:49am by Maulgak
If they're removing +spell damage (or spellpower or what have you) from paladin gear then the threat boost we get in Wrath isn't going to be nearly as huge as I thought. The stam-to-damage talent might only manage to compensate for the loss.
I preferred it when gear was different for different classes. If I still rely on spellpower for threat but get all the spellpower I need from talents, I'll be gearing exactly like a warrior. I don't want to gear exactly like a warrior.
I preferred it when gear was different for different classes. If I still rely on spellpower for threat but get all the spellpower I need from talents, I'll be gearing exactly like a warrior. I don't want to gear exactly like a warrior.
Remember, we'll be gaining a lot more threat from white attacks and new abilities as well. I don't think having less spell damage on gear is going to be too huge of a threat loss at all, but I haven't tested anything yet, so I cant' say for sure =/
EDIT: at the same time, I agree with you. It may have been hard to gear my Paly correctly, but at the same time I liked the challenge. I don't want to be the same as a Warrior in every way except for the color of our resource bar, but we're becoming closer to the same class, at least as far as tanking goes.
Edited, Aug 25th 2008 6:05am by Maulgak
EDIT: at the same time, I agree with you. It may have been hard to gear my Paly correctly, but at the same time I liked the challenge. I don't want to be the same as a Warrior in every way except for the color of our resource bar, but we're becoming closer to the same class, at least as far as tanking goes.
Edited, Aug 25th 2008 6:05am by Maulgak
Quote:
I preferred it when gear was different for different classes. If I still rely on spellpower for threat but get all the spellpower I need from talents, I'll be gearing exactly like a warrior. I don't want to gear exactly like a warrior.
Not quite, currently Protadins benefit only marginally from the Strength stat that Warriors stack for threat and Shield Block. In addition, Protection Paladins do need some Intellect for longer fights and mp5 doesnt hurt either, so I would expect to see some Plate gear with those stats attached; useable by Warriors, just not ideal.
The Stamina->Spellpower conversion actually makes Paladins scale better than Warriors, as they can stack a defensive stat (Stamina) and have it convert efficiently into their threat/offensive stat. You may well see Plate items that are almost all Stamina and Intellect with little Strength attached, which would be itemised quite obviously for Protection Paladins. To be honest, the ability to increase both threat and survivability with a single stat is of huge importance; a Protadin is essentially gaining more from itemisation points than a Warrior on the same piece of gear.
On the other side of the argument you have Strength being "re-tuned" so to speak. It will become much more important for a Paladin tank then it currently is. One of the most obvious reasons for this is the new Shield of Righteousness ability which deals damage based on Shield Block Value. Also, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I heard that the amount of strength needed for each point of Block Value was going to decrease and that some (all?) of our damage spells like SoR would scale with AP as well. If that's just a rumor, PLEASE, please correct me and I will edit it out soon as I can.
One thing that we really have yet to figure out is our weapon (important due to Hammer of the Righteous): will it remain a caster weapon, or will we swap to more "Warrior" type weapons? And those caster weapons, will they still have very low comparable damage, like current ones do, to Warrior weapons? If we start using higher damage weapons, we'll be gaining a more noticeable amount of threat from white damage (granted not huge, but much more than we currently do), and strength will up that as well.
The other point with weapons, sorry this is getting off topic lol, but let's say DPS is relatively the same from a caster weapon to a comparable tank weapon: if the caster weapon gives a lot of stamina then it would still be wise to use it over a tank weapon because you'd get the spell power from the weapon in addition to the spell power granted through Touched by the Light. I've seen some posts saying caster weapons will be a thing of the past, but you really can't say that just yet until we know what the weapons available will be like.
One thing that we really have yet to figure out is our weapon (important due to Hammer of the Righteous): will it remain a caster weapon, or will we swap to more "Warrior" type weapons? And those caster weapons, will they still have very low comparable damage, like current ones do, to Warrior weapons? If we start using higher damage weapons, we'll be gaining a more noticeable amount of threat from white damage (granted not huge, but much more than we currently do), and strength will up that as well.
The other point with weapons, sorry this is getting off topic lol, but let's say DPS is relatively the same from a caster weapon to a comparable tank weapon: if the caster weapon gives a lot of stamina then it would still be wise to use it over a tank weapon because you'd get the spell power from the weapon in addition to the spell power granted through Touched by the Light. I've seen some posts saying caster weapons will be a thing of the past, but you really can't say that just yet until we know what the weapons available will be like.
Quote:
Also, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I heard that the amount of strength needed for each point of Block Value was going to decrease
I haven't heard that, but that would be nice if it's true. I think stacking STR for a pally is dangling on the edge of useless. The STR:Block Value ratio is 20:1, when it does almost nothing for threat and its only use is Shield Block Value - I call that one useless stat.
Same thing on Int, it doesn't matter how long a fight is, Pally tanks have an unlimited mana pool. As long as you're getting hit often enough/hard enough your mana pool is endless. If it's on some spare gear, like tier sets, that's fine and dandy, but it's certainly not needed. I'd much rather see more of a stat of use like Stam, SBR, SBV, Def, Dodge even Parry.
Warrior and DK stats are the same because DK don't use mana, therefore they don't need int.
In case you haven't noticed on "That other site":
1- Paladin OFFENSIVE SPELLS will scale with AP. So strenght and ap = stronger spell = more threat. Prot and Ret will no longer need any +spell. This makes prot and ret "base" stats go back to STR-STA-INT. Ret will still want melee crit and Prot will still want defensive stats.
2- The talent that gives +spell for every STA is just a small bonus so that prot paladins can tank better than non prot paladins of superior gear. In case you haven't noticed that non-prot also get most of the tanking spells.
3- I heard mention that +spell and +heal might be merged together into a different stat. Making casters also have more similar gear and reducing the req for healers to go for additional +spell gear to solo/grind/dps/respec. So healer gear bonus to spells will also be more usable for tanking and spell damage and so on.
APPARENTLY the spell bonus from +spell stat is a little better than the spell scalability from AP (Which would make sense).
I think it's actually a good idea to make gear requirements of different classes, roles and specs more homogeneous. It hurts to have to farm so bloody many items for multiple sets. Sure there will be extra gear but probably with many items serving the purpose of more than one role so that changing from healing gear to DPS gear could be a 6-8 item change instead of a whole 17 item change (as it currently is).
So to conclude my prediction is:
- Ret: STR-INT-STA +crit +hit.
- Holy: INT-STA +allspell +crit.
- Prot: STR-INT-STA +allspell +hit.
In case you haven't noticed on "That other site":
1- Paladin OFFENSIVE SPELLS will scale with AP. So strenght and ap = stronger spell = more threat. Prot and Ret will no longer need any +spell. This makes prot and ret "base" stats go back to STR-STA-INT. Ret will still want melee crit and Prot will still want defensive stats.
2- The talent that gives +spell for every STA is just a small bonus so that prot paladins can tank better than non prot paladins of superior gear. In case you haven't noticed that non-prot also get most of the tanking spells.
3- I heard mention that +spell and +heal might be merged together into a different stat. Making casters also have more similar gear and reducing the req for healers to go for additional +spell gear to solo/grind/dps/respec. So healer gear bonus to spells will also be more usable for tanking and spell damage and so on.
APPARENTLY the spell bonus from +spell stat is a little better than the spell scalability from AP (Which would make sense).
I think it's actually a good idea to make gear requirements of different classes, roles and specs more homogeneous. It hurts to have to farm so bloody many items for multiple sets. Sure there will be extra gear but probably with many items serving the purpose of more than one role so that changing from healing gear to DPS gear could be a 6-8 item change instead of a whole 17 item change (as it currently is).
So to conclude my prediction is:
- Ret: STR-INT-STA +crit +hit.
- Holy: INT-STA +allspell +crit.
- Prot: STR-INT-STA +allspell +hit.
What will be interesting though is where holy paladins get their stats. If there's no spellpower on armor that's fine, but we still need intellect, so there will have to be a difference in plate armor from tanking to healing. Perhaps this is ok, because I imagine death knight armor will have intellect too. So there will be at least two types of plate: magic user and non. While DKs don't have mana, I imagine it would effect their spell criticals and stuff still?
Either way, holy paladins get a talent to turn intellect into spell power: so we'll need it. Healing armor will be different from tanking armor I think.
Here's the talents that give paladins spellpower:
Ret: Sheath of light. Gives 30% of your attack power as spell power.
Prot: Touched by the Light: Gives up to 30% of your stamina as spell power.
Holy: Holy guidance: Gives up to 35% of your intellect as spell power.
As you can see, ret paladins get more spell power than ther other specs. I'm guessing offensive abilities might be back to depending on spell power instead of attack power? Just a guess though.
Edited, Aug 26th 2008 12:46pm by digitalcraft
Either way, holy paladins get a talent to turn intellect into spell power: so we'll need it. Healing armor will be different from tanking armor I think.
Here's the talents that give paladins spellpower:
Ret: Sheath of light. Gives 30% of your attack power as spell power.
Prot: Touched by the Light: Gives up to 30% of your stamina as spell power.
Holy: Holy guidance: Gives up to 35% of your intellect as spell power.
As you can see, ret paladins get more spell power than ther other specs. I'm guessing offensive abilities might be back to depending on spell power instead of attack power? Just a guess though.
Edited, Aug 26th 2008 12:46pm by digitalcraft
There is (in the current Wrath build) gear that is suited to Holy Pallies with Crit Rating (no more Spell Crit, they've been rolled into one) and Spell Power (no more Healing). It's itemized very similar to what Paladin healing gear is now, except that the stats have been rolled into a single stat that effects more than one thing, but changes them in the exact same manner as before.
DPS gear is also very similar and you likely could get (when balancing is done) equal benefit for any of the Plate DPS classes from any arbitrary piece of DPS plate.
Tanking gear is a little different. As of right now, and it has been the theme throughout the beta, there ARE different sets of gear that would benefit different classes differently. Meaning... some sets will clearly benefit a Paladin more than a Warrior and vice-versa. What has been eliminated, however, is the complete and utter uselessness of some gear. Paladins have always gained quite a bit from "Warrior" tuned gear. Warriors on the other hand have found "Paladin" centric gear to be rather useless. Even a piece of gear that clearly benefits a Warrior more in Wrath offers GREAT benefits to a Paladin, and vice-versa. The difference is MUCH closer than in TBC itemization. Of all of the speculation about balancing in Wrath (and you may know that I don't like to talk about balancing at its current phase) this is the only thing that I'm confident will stay true when the expansion goes live. Everyone will not only be able to get by using gear that is specifically tailored for another class, but they'll be able to excel with it. Still... it will be tailored to a different class.
DPS gear is also very similar and you likely could get (when balancing is done) equal benefit for any of the Plate DPS classes from any arbitrary piece of DPS plate.
Tanking gear is a little different. As of right now, and it has been the theme throughout the beta, there ARE different sets of gear that would benefit different classes differently. Meaning... some sets will clearly benefit a Paladin more than a Warrior and vice-versa. What has been eliminated, however, is the complete and utter uselessness of some gear. Paladins have always gained quite a bit from "Warrior" tuned gear. Warriors on the other hand have found "Paladin" centric gear to be rather useless. Even a piece of gear that clearly benefits a Warrior more in Wrath offers GREAT benefits to a Paladin, and vice-versa. The difference is MUCH closer than in TBC itemization. Of all of the speculation about balancing in Wrath (and you may know that I don't like to talk about balancing at its current phase) this is the only thing that I'm confident will stay true when the expansion goes live. Everyone will not only be able to get by using gear that is specifically tailored for another class, but they'll be able to excel with it. Still... it will be tailored to a different class.
I'd just like to show some of the blacksmithing items that have been posted on wotlkwiki to show how stats will look for different specs. Note: I'm not saying everything will look like this, but this is to give you guys a little glimpse of what is currently in the beta:
Healing plate helm - Brilliant Titansteel Helm
1821 armor
Improves critical strike rating by 46 (crit and spell crit are now same stat)
Restores 24 mana per 5 seconds
Increases spell power by 108 (healing and spell damage are now same stat)
DPS plate helm - Spiked Titansteel Helm
1821 armor
108 strength
91 stamina
Improves critical strike rating by 46
Tanking plate helm - Tempered Titansteel Helm
1821 armor
61 strength
162 stamina
Increases defense rating by 46
First time I looked at those I thought, "Why in God's name did they put mana regen on the DPS helm???" Then I had to look at it again and remember the combining of stats and so forth ... At least for me these new stats are really gonna take some time to get used to :(
EDIT: typos.
Edited, Aug 27th 2008 2:29am by Maulgak
Healing plate helm - Brilliant Titansteel Helm
1821 armor
Improves critical strike rating by 46 (crit and spell crit are now same stat)
Restores 24 mana per 5 seconds
Increases spell power by 108 (healing and spell damage are now same stat)
DPS plate helm - Spiked Titansteel Helm
1821 armor
108 strength
91 stamina
Improves critical strike rating by 46
Tanking plate helm - Tempered Titansteel Helm
1821 armor
61 strength
162 stamina
Increases defense rating by 46
First time I looked at those I thought, "Why in God's name did they put mana regen on the DPS helm???" Then I had to look at it again and remember the combining of stats and so forth ... At least for me these new stats are really gonna take some time to get used to :(
EDIT: typos.
Edited, Aug 27th 2008 2:29am by Maulgak
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