Can someone explain to me why mongoose is considered the best enchant for a ret pally on a slow 2-hander? Mongoose is 120 agi that procs on average once a minute for 15 seconds. On average,this means +30 agility.
Major agility is a constant +35 agility. Since 35 is more than 30, what am i missing?
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Major agility vs mongoose Follow
Mongoose also gives haste? And when it procs, you get a lot of agility, which means like 3% crit (or more, I'm hazy with agility to crit Pally numbers). That would be my guess.
Paladins tend to be a whole lot about luck. I mean, they have Seal of Casino. They pray for Luckfury totems. Many of them try to proc Seal of Justice off of a Seal of Casino proc.
More "Chance on hit:" stuff just goes with their pattern.
More "Chance on hit:" stuff just goes with their pattern.
Mongoose = 2% haste and 4.8% crit for 15sec per proc. Proc rate is about 1 time per min on average.
35agi = static 1.4% crit
*25agi = 1% crit for pallys
**22 crit rating is aprox 1% crit for pallys
35agi = static 1.4% crit
*25agi = 1% crit for pallys
**22 crit rating is aprox 1% crit for pallys
Right, which means that, on average, mongoose is giving 1.2% crit vs 1.4% crit for 35 agi. and 2% haste translates to what, 2% bonus damage? Not to mention that mongoose won't even fire in the timeframe of most trash mob fights (at least pre-raid). Explain why I want the roulette wheel that gives less bonus on average than the dependable bonuses of +35 agi or even savagery?
Mongoose Procs a lot. about once every 45 seconds on my warrior iirc (fast 1 hander for tanking there though).
From what I understand:
Mongoose is the best enchant for PvE/raiding. On an average 10 minute boss fight I see about 8-12 procs.I'm to tired to do the math now but it is a very nice dps increase. Only executioner might be better once you get to T5 raiding content and above.
Savagery is best for PvP. AP > crit at a certain stage especially because of resilience. Again, at a certain gear level executioner is maybe better.
Unless you are very short of crit I would always take the above 2 enchants over greater agility one.
Disclaimer: This is on the arms warrior side of thinking. I think for pallies mongoose > executioner is better as a lot of their damage (holy) is NOT mitigated by armour.
From what I understand:
Mongoose is the best enchant for PvE/raiding. On an average 10 minute boss fight I see about 8-12 procs.I'm to tired to do the math now but it is a very nice dps increase. Only executioner might be better once you get to T5 raiding content and above.
Savagery is best for PvP. AP > crit at a certain stage especially because of resilience. Again, at a certain gear level executioner is maybe better.
Unless you are very short of crit I would always take the above 2 enchants over greater agility one.
Disclaimer: This is on the arms warrior side of thinking. I think for pallies mongoose > executioner is better as a lot of their damage (holy) is NOT mitigated by armour.
Doesn't Mongoose proc on Crusader Strikes also? I think it does, and if so, this means extra attacks, which means that in an example (on AVERAGE):
Weapon speed 3.6 seconds =>
Number of autoswings per minute: 60/3.6 = 16.7 =>
Chance to proc mongoose per autoswing: 1/16.7 = 6%
Now, extra attacks, like I think Crusader Strike counts as, do NOT change that chance to proc. Nor does the 2% haste when it actually procs, nor does any other haste influence. It is calculated from BASE weapon speed.
Let's assume NO haste (if haste is actually there, it will even be better for Mongoose).
Crusader Strike you can use 10 times a minute (cooldown 6 secs, right? not up to par anymore with all these changes). This means that you have in total:
16.7 autoswings + 10 Crusader Strikes = 26.7 swings per minute.
Each of these swings proc Mongoose with 6%. ON AVERAGE this means that you get
6% * 26.7 = 1.6 Mongoose procs per minute, while continuously keeping Crusader Strike on cooldown.
This means that Mongoose will give MORE crit per minute on average than +35 agility PLUS it gives the 2% haste effect. When you calculate haste effects, it will only get better and better in favour of Mongoose (6% stays the same, calculated of BASE weapon speed).
Hands down: Mongoose >> +35 agility.
EDIT: It was mentioned that Mongoose seemed to proc every 45 secs. Based on the above I would say it procs about 1.6 times per minute meaning 60 / 1.6 = once per 38 seconds. Take into account that you miss one Crusader Strike or whatever and the 45 seconds seems a good guess...
Edited, Aug 20th 2008 11:14am by Immunios
Weapon speed 3.6 seconds =>
Number of autoswings per minute: 60/3.6 = 16.7 =>
Chance to proc mongoose per autoswing: 1/16.7 = 6%
Now, extra attacks, like I think Crusader Strike counts as, do NOT change that chance to proc. Nor does the 2% haste when it actually procs, nor does any other haste influence. It is calculated from BASE weapon speed.
Let's assume NO haste (if haste is actually there, it will even be better for Mongoose).
Crusader Strike you can use 10 times a minute (cooldown 6 secs, right? not up to par anymore with all these changes). This means that you have in total:
16.7 autoswings + 10 Crusader Strikes = 26.7 swings per minute.
Each of these swings proc Mongoose with 6%. ON AVERAGE this means that you get
6% * 26.7 = 1.6 Mongoose procs per minute, while continuously keeping Crusader Strike on cooldown.
This means that Mongoose will give MORE crit per minute on average than +35 agility PLUS it gives the 2% haste effect. When you calculate haste effects, it will only get better and better in favour of Mongoose (6% stays the same, calculated of BASE weapon speed).
Hands down: Mongoose >> +35 agility.
EDIT: It was mentioned that Mongoose seemed to proc every 45 secs. Based on the above I would say it procs about 1.6 times per minute meaning 60 / 1.6 = once per 38 seconds. Take into account that you miss one Crusader Strike or whatever and the 45 seconds seems a good guess...
Edited, Aug 20th 2008 11:14am by Immunios
Ah...if its indeed true that mongoose procs on crusader strike, AND this increases the potential ppm, then yes. But I don't see why, if mongoose is normalized to proc at about 1 ppm, that the ability to proc on crusader strike would increase that normalization. Is that really how ppm is calculated, weapon speed/60? I'll have to pay attention to whether mongoose can proc on crusader strike tonight.
The savagery vs mongoose = PvP vs PvE arguments make a ton of sense, thanks for that.
The savagery vs mongoose = PvP vs PvE arguments make a ton of sense, thanks for that.
Well it actually works like that indeed. (or it would have changed, but I would be hard-pressed to believe that)
Just looked this up:
http://www.wowwiki.com/Formulas:Procs_per_minute
Which states:
In World of Warcraft, "procs per hit" is the percent chance of a proc occurring each hit. This can be an attack you launch or an attack launched on you. This may seem obvious, but it's a good term to have in contrast to the less intuitive procs per minute. Procs per hit benefit greatly from faster hits.
Procs per minute scales procs per hit according to weapon speed. Here's the formula:
Procs per hit = (Weapon speed) / (60 / Procs per minute)
which is the same as:
Procs per hit = Weapon speed * Procs per minute / 60
This gives the percentage chance that the proc will go off each hit. An understandable misconception is that procs per minute guarantees that exactly some amount of procs will occur each minute of combat. This is not the case, as procs per minute is merely a statistical average, not a guarantee.
Current List of ppm:
Crusader: 1
Mongoose: 1
And later on it states this:
The procs-per-minute rating of a given weapon ability assumes that only auto-attacks ("white damage" attacks) are made with that weapon. In practice, an ability on the weapon equipped in the main hand can proc more often than its PPM rating, due to the fact that instant attacks (Sinister Strike, Overpower, etc.) are all assumed to be made with this weapon.
As an example, say a warrior has a Crusader enchant on the weapon in his main hand (with a choice between a weapon with a 2.0 speed and a weapon with 2.5 speed), and is involved in a long fight where he has essentially unlimited rage and (miraculously) never misses his target.
Weapon 1 has a speed of 2.0 sec and is enchanted with Crusader which has a rated PPM = 1. Hence, the chance for Crusader to proc on any given hit with this weapon is 1/30.
Weapon 2 has a speed of 2.5 sec and is also enchanted with Crusader. The chance for Crusader to proc on any given hit with this weapon will be 1/24.
Every minute, the warrior does 10 Bloodthirsts*, 6 Whirlwinds, and 4 Overpowers, for a total of 20 instant attacks. With weapon 1, he will do 30 white hits, for a total of 50 Hits per minute. With weapon 2, he will do 24 white hits.
For weapon 1 the chance to proc is 1/30, the warrior does a total of 30 normal hits + 20 "special" hits per minute which makes the actual PPM 50/30 = 1.67.
For weapon 2 the chance to proc is 1/24, the warrior does a total of 24 normal hits + 20 "special" hits per minute which makes the actual PPM 44/24 = 1.83.
Therefore, the slower the weapon you wield in the main hand, the more often any PPM-rated ability on it will proc.
All these calculations are made with no flurry included.
On top of that this page
http://www.wowwiki.com/Crusader_Strike
Which states that
Crusader Strike is the 41 point talent in the Paladin's Retribution tree. It is an instant weapon strike that can activate procs (excluding damage dealing Seals) and refreshes all Judgements on the target, even those cast by other Paladins.
making a cool addition to my post. /wink
EDIT: still can not work with quotes... /sob
Edited, Aug 20th 2008 11:29am by Immunios
Just looked this up:
http://www.wowwiki.com/Formulas:Procs_per_minute
Which states:
wowwiki wrote:
In World of Warcraft, "procs per hit" is the percent chance of a proc occurring each hit. This can be an attack you launch or an attack launched on you. This may seem obvious, but it's a good term to have in contrast to the less intuitive procs per minute. Procs per hit benefit greatly from faster hits.
Procs per minute scales procs per hit according to weapon speed. Here's the formula:
Procs per hit = (Weapon speed) / (60 / Procs per minute)
which is the same as:
Procs per hit = Weapon speed * Procs per minute / 60
This gives the percentage chance that the proc will go off each hit. An understandable misconception is that procs per minute guarantees that exactly some amount of procs will occur each minute of combat. This is not the case, as procs per minute is merely a statistical average, not a guarantee.
Current List of ppm:
Crusader: 1
Mongoose: 1
And later on it states this:
wowwiki wrote:
The procs-per-minute rating of a given weapon ability assumes that only auto-attacks ("white damage" attacks) are made with that weapon. In practice, an ability on the weapon equipped in the main hand can proc more often than its PPM rating, due to the fact that instant attacks (Sinister Strike, Overpower, etc.) are all assumed to be made with this weapon.
As an example, say a warrior has a Crusader enchant on the weapon in his main hand (with a choice between a weapon with a 2.0 speed and a weapon with 2.5 speed), and is involved in a long fight where he has essentially unlimited rage and (miraculously) never misses his target.
Weapon 1 has a speed of 2.0 sec and is enchanted with Crusader which has a rated PPM = 1. Hence, the chance for Crusader to proc on any given hit with this weapon is 1/30.
Weapon 2 has a speed of 2.5 sec and is also enchanted with Crusader. The chance for Crusader to proc on any given hit with this weapon will be 1/24.
Every minute, the warrior does 10 Bloodthirsts*, 6 Whirlwinds, and 4 Overpowers, for a total of 20 instant attacks. With weapon 1, he will do 30 white hits, for a total of 50 Hits per minute. With weapon 2, he will do 24 white hits.
For weapon 1 the chance to proc is 1/30, the warrior does a total of 30 normal hits + 20 "special" hits per minute which makes the actual PPM 50/30 = 1.67.
For weapon 2 the chance to proc is 1/24, the warrior does a total of 24 normal hits + 20 "special" hits per minute which makes the actual PPM 44/24 = 1.83.
Therefore, the slower the weapon you wield in the main hand, the more often any PPM-rated ability on it will proc.
All these calculations are made with no flurry included.
On top of that this page
http://www.wowwiki.com/Crusader_Strike
Which states that
wowwiki wrote:
Crusader Strike is the 41 point talent in the Paladin's Retribution tree. It is an instant weapon strike that can activate procs (excluding damage dealing Seals) and refreshes all Judgements on the target, even those cast by other Paladins.
making a cool addition to my post. /wink
EDIT: still can not work with quotes... /sob
Edited, Aug 20th 2008 11:29am by Immunios
Hawt. Thats the kind of number-crunching reassurance I was looking for, thanks!
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