If this were a class coming into TBC, I would 100% agree. However, have you seen WotLK gear? Blizzard is slapping haste on everything they can. It's going to be the new Mp5 or the new Armor Pen for endgame is my assumption. And with that, I assume they'll have a cap on how much haste can effect your weapon swing speed, otherwise Fury Warriors might get out of hand.
Like I said, this will change based on changes made. But based on my wild assumptions, I'll put my points into other places.
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Just my 2 cents.
Would the +Health on hits be similar to the method that many Paly's will employ to AOE grind.
I know this isn't what everyone was talking about (Tanking 5-Mans and Raids) but I'm a Paly tank. I AOE grind. I don't have uber gear, so I keep my +Heals and/or +Mana buffs up all the time.
Could this possibly be another use for the +Heals buff???
Would the +Health on hits be similar to the method that many Paly's will employ to AOE grind.
I know this isn't what everyone was talking about (Tanking 5-Mans and Raids) but I'm a Paly tank. I AOE grind. I don't have uber gear, so I keep my +Heals and/or +Mana buffs up all the time.
Could this possibly be another use for the +Heals buff???
I assume you mean judging light on a mob so other melee attackers get healing from their swings.
It's certainly another way of accomplishing the same goal, it's just a very expensive way of doing so.
Judging Light on a mob so all melee gets heals from it is something every pally can do. For a DK to get a similar benefit from Blood Aura, you have to be pretty deep blood to get this, and thus, you sacrifice a lot of survivability for yourself in place of others. You would also have to be in Blood Presence to take advantage of this talent, which means you wouldn't be getting the +armor and +threat from Frost Presence.
It's certainly another way of accomplishing the same goal, it's just a very expensive way of doing so.
Judging Light on a mob so all melee gets heals from it is something every pally can do. For a DK to get a similar benefit from Blood Aura, you have to be pretty deep blood to get this, and thus, you sacrifice a lot of survivability for yourself in place of others. You would also have to be in Blood Presence to take advantage of this talent, which means you wouldn't be getting the +armor and +threat from Frost Presence.
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Like I said, this will change based on changes made. But based on my wild assumptions, I'll put my points into other places.
Your assumptions are indeed pretty wild, since there's been no mention by blizzard of putting a 'haste cap' and Haste currently does stack with itself in both the beta and the live version of the game >_>.
Despite all of that, S&D for rogues is still their single most powerful ability... and what it does is gives them 30% haste.
It seems pretty silly to discount an incredibly powerful talent on account of a gut feeling...
Edited, Aug 19th 2008 4:10pm by Tyrandor
Pretty silly to fill out a talent tree that is changed every day and is 1copper to respec out of in beta based on a gut feeling?
My DK is unholy in Beta currently, Frost isn't what I'm sporting, though I have gone into each spec to see what it's like. I'm filling out a tree based off nothing but gut feelings and what I've toyed with in Beta, and there's no consequence. I 100% guarantee that the spec you and I choose now will not be what we choose once WotLK goes live, because of impossibilities or at the very base of it all, assumptions and facts that come forth once things have settled.
You do have a point with SnD, to put a cap on Haste would negate a PvE Rogue's bread and butter. But I'll state this again, nothing is set in stone. Though my claims are wild, Blizz has made some pretty ridiculous changes over the years.
It would be silly to not toy around with talents on a talent calculator, sir. Good day!
Edited, Aug 19th 2008 4:38pm by TacticalRage
My DK is unholy in Beta currently, Frost isn't what I'm sporting, though I have gone into each spec to see what it's like. I'm filling out a tree based off nothing but gut feelings and what I've toyed with in Beta, and there's no consequence. I 100% guarantee that the spec you and I choose now will not be what we choose once WotLK goes live, because of impossibilities or at the very base of it all, assumptions and facts that come forth once things have settled.
You do have a point with SnD, to put a cap on Haste would negate a PvE Rogue's bread and butter. But I'll state this again, nothing is set in stone. Though my claims are wild, Blizz has made some pretty ridiculous changes over the years.
It would be silly to not toy around with talents on a talent calculator, sir. Good day!
Edited, Aug 19th 2008 4:38pm by TacticalRage
I respec several time a day. Why wouldn't I? And my DK is also unholy atm...
However, I fail to see how that has any link with stopping the use of your logic and rationality in a discussion on tanking builds.
Because if we do that, then we can simply say 61/0/0 (or whatever) will be the best tanking build, based off a gut feeling and the fact that blizzard has done crazy stuff in the past. Or hell, say that in wotlk, Priest will be the best AE tank for raid instance. It's a gut feeling. What do you mean it's crazy? It's a beta, things will change, you don't know what's gonna happen!
>_>
Yes, it's all conjuncture, yes it's all going to change - that goes without saying... but in order for the discussion to have somekind of baseline that we can all agree on and for it to indeed be a discussion and not a garbling of words loosely put together, we need to go by the assumption that what we know is correct - and if we what we know change, we then change our position. You can't design a build on the basis that things will change and the ability you picked (or didn't pic) will suddenly change to fit the purpose you want them to, rather the purpose they currently have.
So yeah, with all that said, not taking imp icy talon in a tanking build? Bad idea.
Now if that build is meant to be a Frost non-tanking build or somesuch... well, maybe it'd work, but why did you post in it a tanking thread? >_>
Heck, you mention the usefulness of icy reach - I said it was useless for a tank. But in pvp and in solo-pve, having extra range on icy touch/howling blast is pretty bad ***... however, this thread ISN'T about pvp or solo-pve.
Edited, Aug 19th 2008 6:10pm by Tyrandor
However, I fail to see how that has any link with stopping the use of your logic and rationality in a discussion on tanking builds.
Because if we do that, then we can simply say 61/0/0 (or whatever) will be the best tanking build, based off a gut feeling and the fact that blizzard has done crazy stuff in the past. Or hell, say that in wotlk, Priest will be the best AE tank for raid instance. It's a gut feeling. What do you mean it's crazy? It's a beta, things will change, you don't know what's gonna happen!
>_>
Yes, it's all conjuncture, yes it's all going to change - that goes without saying... but in order for the discussion to have somekind of baseline that we can all agree on and for it to indeed be a discussion and not a garbling of words loosely put together, we need to go by the assumption that what we know is correct - and if we what we know change, we then change our position. You can't design a build on the basis that things will change and the ability you picked (or didn't pic) will suddenly change to fit the purpose you want them to, rather the purpose they currently have.
So yeah, with all that said, not taking imp icy talon in a tanking build? Bad idea.
Now if that build is meant to be a Frost non-tanking build or somesuch... well, maybe it'd work, but why did you post in it a tanking thread? >_>
Heck, you mention the usefulness of icy reach - I said it was useless for a tank. But in pvp and in solo-pve, having extra range on icy touch/howling blast is pretty bad ***... however, this thread ISN'T about pvp or solo-pve.
Edited, Aug 19th 2008 6:10pm by Tyrandor
Your suggestions aren't based around anything specific though. Stating Priests will be tanks is something thought up nonsensically. Regardless, we could nitpick discussion baselines all day. Not a fun time imo.
Judging by current facts available, something will happen with haste is my "gut feeling". The way things are headed I wouldn't see it as much of a chore for most classes to cap on the GCD reduction haste provides, much less reach a ridiculous point of melee swing/spell cast speed increase. Your Rogue argument does knock my guess higher up on the "Never going to happen" scale, as I hadn't thought about that all the while playing with my precious Death Knight. In any case, my assumption was wild, I've stated that from the beginning, but it's not impossible.
Blizzard has removed crushing blows and taken away Druid's gear-given armor to what it is in TBC, though it's been noted by a Dev that this has plans to change in some form. We also now have a "tanking class" with talents for tanking spewed about as if Blizzard was tossing darts at a board while heavily intoxicated. I wasn't really trying to make a point previously, but I'll give you one now - speculation isn't out the window, and wild assumptions can be made into a reality the next day.
Judging by current facts available, something will happen with haste is my "gut feeling". The way things are headed I wouldn't see it as much of a chore for most classes to cap on the GCD reduction haste provides, much less reach a ridiculous point of melee swing/spell cast speed increase. Your Rogue argument does knock my guess higher up on the "Never going to happen" scale, as I hadn't thought about that all the while playing with my precious Death Knight. In any case, my assumption was wild, I've stated that from the beginning, but it's not impossible.
Blizzard has removed crushing blows and taken away Druid's gear-given armor to what it is in TBC, though it's been noted by a Dev that this has plans to change in some form. We also now have a "tanking class" with talents for tanking spewed about as if Blizzard was tossing darts at a board while heavily intoxicated. I wasn't really trying to make a point previously, but I'll give you one now - speculation isn't out the window, and wild assumptions can be made into a reality the next day.
On another note, I found this thread on Unholy tanking from a 77's perspective. Complete with video:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=9023786630&sid=2000
Not to rain on this guy/gal's parade, but right now 5-mans are REALLY easy. From what I've experienced on my Tankadin and what I've read/seen elsewhere, a Rogue with enough dodge could be tanking WotLK instances(Not that they haven't already been tanking in TBC =P).
In any case it's a nice read/view - enjoy!
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=9023786630&sid=2000
Not to rain on this guy/gal's parade, but right now 5-mans are REALLY easy. From what I've experienced on my Tankadin and what I've read/seen elsewhere, a Rogue with enough dodge could be tanking WotLK instances(Not that they haven't already been tanking in TBC =P).
In any case it's a nice read/view - enjoy!
It's also early in and we have no indication of the skill level of his party - one of our prot pld was well known for out-dpsing pug rogue/mage in 5 man in early TBC.
Although Unholy are pretty much the king of AE (From a dk perspective), so them being good at building AE threat isn't surprising at all.
Although Unholy are pretty much the king of AE (From a dk perspective), so them being good at building AE threat isn't surprising at all.
Completely agree. With focus on Pestilence, Corpse Explosion and Unholy Blight I don't think this is much of a surprise to anyone who's been watching DK's with a close eye. I assume every DK spec is going to have pretty good DPS whiletanking though. You have a class that gains its hold on threat through its damage, and not high-threat low-dmg abilities like Warriors - you shouldn't be surprised at the results.
25 posts
Wow.... i feel like ive created a monster....lol
but anyways would http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=j0eMVZhxxtIezooRVosZ0xM
be a good caster tanking build? I understand now why deep frost is chosen for normal tanking... but for casters in raids?
but anyways would http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=j0eMVZhxxtIezooRVosZ0xM
be a good caster tanking build? I understand now why deep frost is chosen for normal tanking... but for casters in raids?
TacticalRage wrote:
Regardless, we could nitpick discussion baselines all day. Not a fun time imo.
Then by all means don't join in, nobody is forcing you to read or post, and actually nobody is nitpicking about discussion baselines except you.
TacticalRage I have to confess I have absolutely no goddamn idea what you are talking about. You're saying Tyr should respec but... he shouldnt because it's beta but... you do because it's only 1c.... seriously I dont know what your point is.
You're saying Tyr's 'assumptions' are based off nothing substantive and then going ahead and making even crazier assumptions of your own, defending them by saying "It's only beta". Yes, beta will change, but we are here to discuss the current direction of the changes to try to guess what Blizzard have planned for the class, and to try to figure out a reasonable tanking mechanic for a class that doesnt seem to have an intuitive one.
The 'assumptions' being made are actually 'analyses', they are well-reasoned arguments made from a basis of current fact. I actually agree with you that there might be a 'haste cap' like there is for the GCD, but I think it will be extremely high, far beyond most raids' ability to stack up to, and thus more or less irrelevant to this discussion.
Tyrandor wrote:
Now if that build is meant to be a Frost non-tanking build or somesuch... well, maybe it'd work
I actually respectfully disagree here. A Frost DK has natively less DPS than a Blood DK via the loss of Bloody Vengeance, they need something to make it up in order to get a raidslot. Icy Talons is a flat 20% melee haste which is awesome for the DK, but it still won't make up for the DPS gap. A serious raidgroup will need/want maximum DPS specs from all their slots, so even if you're DPS you will be forced to spec into the best raiding DPS build, which aint gonna be deep Frost. The only way to get yourself the slot is to spec Improved Talons, because a (mostly) constant 20% melee haste is an enormous benefit and easily makes up for your lost DPS. Frost = Imp Talons, until they nerf it.
Heh, I agree with you... Frost Raid = Imp Icy Touch.
When I said 'non-tank' frost build, I guess I actually meant 'non-raid' - Imp icy touch isn't that hot for pvp nor for soloing for example (mobs die fast enough in solo that 20% haste won't shave a lot of time on the kill anyway).
When I said 'non-tank' frost build, I guess I actually meant 'non-raid' - Imp icy touch isn't that hot for pvp nor for soloing for example (mobs die fast enough in solo that 20% haste won't shave a lot of time on the kill anyway).
Way to beat on a dead horse..
Except for the fact that Tyr had and you're doing so now.
I think you're confusing my statements. I never told Tyr he should change his Frost-tanking spec. It's a good spec, very similar to mine with a few differences in opinion. I never told anyone they should or should not change their specs, I think the more we toy with specs the better at this point. I'll quote myself here: "It would be silly to not toy around with talents on a talent calculator, sir. Good day!"
I'm wondering if you truly read anything I've typed. My defense was not, "It's only beta", my defense for my choice in end-game spec was the amount of haste on WotLK gear. If there being a haste cap is crazier than Priests tanking, then I quit WoW, sir. My assumption of their being a haste cap had reason, and I provided that. His example, Priests tanking, did not provide reason. That's all I was saying with the sentence you quoted me on.
I love how you're telling me my argument is irrelevant to this thread based off your own assumption, logic ftw? While your statement will probably be the case, it could also be taken further into what I had stated. Blizz is making some pretty out-there decisions with this beta - and while you don't agree with my assumption, 100% anyway, it is possible. I didn't pull this assumption out of my posterior, I stated why I thought this would be a possibility. I would very much appreciate it if my throat wasn't jumped down for giving reason to my decisions. My discussion for not taking Imp Icy Talons has just as much relevance as anyone else on these boards with an idea and logic behind it. You've stated yourself that you agree with me, to a certain extent - yet you claim that my guess is "crazy". Seriously, are you wanting to fight over the internet?
Also, I believe I said "Good day"! =P
Getting back on track, Josh, that build you just posted is what Tyr had suggested in the beginning. So I'm sure he would agree with it being a solid build.
I'd also like to ask why the extra runic power doesn't get any love from you Tyr? As Frost I found myself always craving more RP, even with Chill to the Grave. And with Frost Strike not having a CD, that I can remember, it would seem like the more RP the better. Thoughts?
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Then by all means don't join in, nobody is forcing you to read or post, and actually nobody is nitpicking about discussion baselines except you.
Except for the fact that Tyr had and you're doing so now.
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You're saying Tyr should respec but... he shouldnt because it's beta but... you do because it's only 1c.... seriously I dont know what your point is.
I think you're confusing my statements. I never told Tyr he should change his Frost-tanking spec. It's a good spec, very similar to mine with a few differences in opinion. I never told anyone they should or should not change their specs, I think the more we toy with specs the better at this point. I'll quote myself here: "It would be silly to not toy around with talents on a talent calculator, sir. Good day!"
Quote:
You're saying Tyr's 'assumptions' are based off nothing substantive and then going ahead and making even crazier assumptions of your own, defending them by saying "It's only beta".
I'm wondering if you truly read anything I've typed. My defense was not, "It's only beta", my defense for my choice in end-game spec was the amount of haste on WotLK gear. If there being a haste cap is crazier than Priests tanking, then I quit WoW, sir. My assumption of their being a haste cap had reason, and I provided that. His example, Priests tanking, did not provide reason. That's all I was saying with the sentence you quoted me on.
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I actually agree with you that there might be a 'haste cap' like there is for the GCD, but I think it will be extremely high, far beyond most raids' ability to stack up to, and thus more or less irrelevant to this discussion.
I love how you're telling me my argument is irrelevant to this thread based off your own assumption, logic ftw? While your statement will probably be the case, it could also be taken further into what I had stated. Blizz is making some pretty out-there decisions with this beta - and while you don't agree with my assumption, 100% anyway, it is possible. I didn't pull this assumption out of my posterior, I stated why I thought this would be a possibility. I would very much appreciate it if my throat wasn't jumped down for giving reason to my decisions. My discussion for not taking Imp Icy Talons has just as much relevance as anyone else on these boards with an idea and logic behind it. You've stated yourself that you agree with me, to a certain extent - yet you claim that my guess is "crazy". Seriously, are you wanting to fight over the internet?
Also, I believe I said "Good day"! =P
Getting back on track, Josh, that build you just posted is what Tyr had suggested in the beginning. So I'm sure he would agree with it being a solid build.
I'd also like to ask why the extra runic power doesn't get any love from you Tyr? As Frost I found myself always craving more RP, even with Chill to the Grave. And with Frost Strike not having a CD, that I can remember, it would seem like the more RP the better. Thoughts?
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Getting back on track, Josh, that build you just posted is what Tyr had suggested in the beginning. So I'm sure he would agree with it being a solid build.
I'd also like to ask why the extra runic power doesn't get any love from you Tyr? As Frost I found myself always craving more RP, even with Chill to the Grave. And with Frost Strike not having a CD, that I can remember, it would seem like the more RP the better. Thoughts?
I'd also like to ask why the extra runic power doesn't get any love from you Tyr? As Frost I found myself always craving more RP, even with Chill to the Grave. And with Frost Strike not having a CD, that I can remember, it would seem like the more RP the better. Thoughts?
Main reason: Because I don't have enough points and there's simply put, much better talents out there.
Here's the thing, at 2/2 all it does is make Icy Touch gives you 15rp instead of 10. Yes, I'm aware it also boost Chain of Ice and Howling Blast, but those two abilities are too situational while tanking to truly be worth talenting up.
As you've seen in my 'rotation' up there, the goal is to try to only use Icy Touch/Plague Strike when necessary, so every 20 seconds, so the debuff doesn't drop. Anything else lowers the amount of Death Strike/Obliterate you will push out.
So in the end, Chill of the Grave means 15 more runic power per minute. Or 1 more Frostrike per 4 minute... which 2 talent point can you afford to lose for this? Maybe unholy command, since shorter cooldown on the taunt like ability of the DK may end up not being necessary...
It's a talent that looks great on paper, but simply doesn't do all that much when all is said and done.
For what it's worth, I think Dirge (Chill ofr the Grave's counter part in unholy) is an awesome talent, but mostly because it help 2 ability you'll use a lot (Death Strike and Scourge Strike) instead of 1 and because Scourge Strike is a potent damage dealer in itself, meaning you might want to use it for it's damage and not only for the debuff (i.e. It'll get used more often then 3 time per minute).
Makes sense.
Something I noticed, if Epidemic in the Unholy tree was taken, couldn't you switch your Step 2 Frost/Plague Strikes with your Obliterate/Death Strikes in Step 3? This would let you put out more Obliterates/Death Strikes overall I would assume seeing as Forst/Plague are really only used to keep diseases up.
On a different subject, kind of, I'm curious as to your thoughts on the Morbidity talent in Unholy for an almost spammable DnD. I know DK's have yet to complain about aggro issues, but that idea just seems like a lot of fun to me for AoE tanking.
Also, is the plan to make Corpse Explosion cost RP like Wowhead has there? On the Beta realm mine still costs a Rune..
Something I noticed, if Epidemic in the Unholy tree was taken, couldn't you switch your Step 2 Frost/Plague Strikes with your Obliterate/Death Strikes in Step 3? This would let you put out more Obliterates/Death Strikes overall I would assume seeing as Forst/Plague are really only used to keep diseases up.
On a different subject, kind of, I'm curious as to your thoughts on the Morbidity talent in Unholy for an almost spammable DnD. I know DK's have yet to complain about aggro issues, but that idea just seems like a lot of fun to me for AoE tanking.
Also, is the plan to make Corpse Explosion cost RP like Wowhead has there? On the Beta realm mine still costs a Rune..
Hard to tell for Morbidity.
How much Threat is D&D worth? It seem obvious that Morbidity is awesome for 'AE grinding', but the forst build I've submitted in this thread is designed with the idea of being a single target tank first.
Spamming D&D every 15 seconds (And if you aren't going to use it every 15 second, why take morbidity?) is not very good single target dps and it also ties up 3 of your rune permanently. This will cut down your number of Obliterate to one every other rotation. Without knowing for sure how threat works for DK, it's hard to say it if it'll be worth it.
Personally I saw D&D as a way to 'cheat' and drop 3 rune in one GCD, allowing to keep Blade Barrier up a lot easier, rather then as a viable threat building move... but heh, I could be wrong. If D&D's threat is out of this world, it might be worth using on a single target for its threat alone.
You would get in 1 more obliterate, butthe Disease will still drop 6 second later and you'll have 4 second to go with no disease (i.e runes are still refreshing).
Once again tho, I might be putting to much important on having a 100% disease up time. Seems logical that you'd want that, but I might be blowing it out of proportion, it's quite possible 1 more obliterate/death strike is worth much more then a 100% disease uptime, in that case Epidemic will be a winner.
Last I read, they changed it to a rune because;
1 - Unholy already has 2 runic ability (Gargoyle and Unholy Blight) making it a bit to runic powered centered.
2 - It was pretty much in direct competition with (the much more powerful) unholy blight as 'your AE move that cost runic power' and felt redundant. It has a much better synergy now, since the runic power gained from corpse explosion can feed unholy blight.
How much Threat is D&D worth? It seem obvious that Morbidity is awesome for 'AE grinding', but the forst build I've submitted in this thread is designed with the idea of being a single target tank first.
Spamming D&D every 15 seconds (And if you aren't going to use it every 15 second, why take morbidity?) is not very good single target dps and it also ties up 3 of your rune permanently. This will cut down your number of Obliterate to one every other rotation. Without knowing for sure how threat works for DK, it's hard to say it if it'll be worth it.
Personally I saw D&D as a way to 'cheat' and drop 3 rune in one GCD, allowing to keep Blade Barrier up a lot easier, rather then as a viable threat building move... but heh, I could be wrong. If D&D's threat is out of this world, it might be worth using on a single target for its threat alone.
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Something I noticed, if Epidemic in the Unholy tree was taken, couldn't you switch your Step 2 Frost/Plague Strikes with your Obliterate/Death Strikes in Step 3? This would let you put out more Obliterates/Death Strikes overall I would assume seeing as Forst/Plague are really only used to keep diseases up.
You would get in 1 more obliterate, butthe Disease will still drop 6 second later and you'll have 4 second to go with no disease (i.e runes are still refreshing).
Once again tho, I might be putting to much important on having a 100% disease up time. Seems logical that you'd want that, but I might be blowing it out of proportion, it's quite possible 1 more obliterate/death strike is worth much more then a 100% disease uptime, in that case Epidemic will be a winner.
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Also, is the plan to make Corpse Explosion cost RP like Wowhead has there? On the Beta realm mine still costs a Rune.
Last I read, they changed it to a rune because;
1 - Unholy already has 2 runic ability (Gargoyle and Unholy Blight) making it a bit to runic powered centered.
2 - It was pretty much in direct competition with (the much more powerful) unholy blight as 'your AE move that cost runic power' and felt redundant. It has a much better synergy now, since the runic power gained from corpse explosion can feed unholy blight.
I like to keep all situations in mind, sometimes impossible, but I try. =P From what I had read on EJ, the threat from DnD is pretty hefty(and should be for its cost), so I assumed this would be a choice ability for all DK tanks in AoE situations. Like you said, who knows until things have settled down and changes come to a close.
On Epidemic, that would kind of kill the point of keeping a diseases up on 1 target consistently, and I too believe the importance of this with tanking will be paramount. Also thinking of the AoE situations(which I can't stop doing.. I'm a Tankadin.. sry lol), it would give some added leeway to Pestilence, which in turn helps with Blood Boil with the promised crazy AoE dmg from Mages. And then that has me questioning Outbreak. And on and on and on my mind goes..
I suppose that makes sense on Corpse Explosion. I don't have Gargoyle as it seemed very underpowered the 2 times I had tried it, hopefully will get a buff.
On Epidemic, that would kind of kill the point of keeping a diseases up on 1 target consistently, and I too believe the importance of this with tanking will be paramount. Also thinking of the AoE situations(which I can't stop doing.. I'm a Tankadin.. sry lol), it would give some added leeway to Pestilence, which in turn helps with Blood Boil with the promised crazy AoE dmg from Mages. And then that has me questioning Outbreak. And on and on and on my mind goes..
I suppose that makes sense on Corpse Explosion. I don't have Gargoyle as it seemed very underpowered the 2 times I had tried it, hopefully will get a buff.
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it's quite possible 1 more obliterate/death strike is worth much more then a 100% disease uptime, in that case Epidemic will be a winner.
On this subject, there has been much discussion on Disease damage scaling. Currently they do fairly pathetic damage to be honest, even Unholy ticks are nothing useful in their own right. I forget the precise post, but they are looking into increasing the damage to make it a larger overall component, so hold the phone on the importance of Disease uptime. At present, I value another Oblit a hell of a lot more, especially for any build with Annihilation. You're losing a few disease ticks but gaining the strongest single instant strike available, which with appropriate talents has a significant crit chance too. Diseases I see as a function to increased Strike damage and Blood Boil.
And Tactical, I really don't want to fight over the internet, I actually read your posts about three times trying to figure out what exactly you were trying to say. Since I couldnt, I said so, in the hopes of clarification.
Edited, Aug 20th 2008 9:28pm by Sinstralis
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On this subject, there has been much discussion on Disease damage scaling. Currently they do fairly pathetic damage to be honest, even Unholy ticks are nothing useful in their own right. I forget the precise post, but they are looking into increasing the damage to make it a larger overall component, so hold the phone on the importance of Disease uptime. At present, I value another Oblit a hell of a lot more, especially for any build with Annihilation. You're losing a few disease ticks but gaining the strongest single instant strike available, which with appropriate talents has a significant crit chance too. Diseases I see as a function to increased Strike damage and Blood Boil.
That's a good point, with Frost, so many mechanics work off of crits that I'd agree at this point an Obliterate would be worth more than some ticks on diseases on a single target tanking situation. I'm sure Blizz will have diseases scale with AP in the end, /hope.
May I suggest that anyone curious about Death Knight tanking check out Jayde's Unholy DK Tank.
In this video the player successfully tanks Drak'theron Keep with what appears to be DPS gear, and does a far better job of it than any Ret Paladin/Fury Warrior I've seen trying it.
Insane AoE pulling, enormous damage (top of the dmg meter), apparently fine survivability and absolutely no aggro problems. Whatever thay did to the threat coefficient of Death n Decay, it is clearly the best AoE threat mechanic in the game from this video.
What I find interesting is this is an Unholy build without most of the talents we have been disscussing :)
In this video the player successfully tanks Drak'theron Keep with what appears to be DPS gear, and does a far better job of it than any Ret Paladin/Fury Warrior I've seen trying it.
Insane AoE pulling, enormous damage (top of the dmg meter), apparently fine survivability and absolutely no aggro problems. Whatever thay did to the threat coefficient of Death n Decay, it is clearly the best AoE threat mechanic in the game from this video.
What I find interesting is this is an Unholy build without most of the talents we have been disscussing :)
I linked this earlier in the thread. Pretty amazed myself that he's in DPS gear. However, I'd note that Northrend instances(right now) are very easy compared to Outland 5mans. Unholy will probably be the choice spec for 5mans with all that yummy AoE, so I'm not too surprised by the ease of holding threat, but their survivability is impressive regardless - even for the ease of the Northrend 5mans.
Well... It's not really a cap of any sort, but there is one change that makes Imp Icy Talons a talent that might be skipped if you have a few Enhancement Shamans in your raid:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=9336665205&sid=2000
What this means:
The plan is to not have similar abilities stack in a raid situation, the list is on that link. Of that, is our Imp Icy Talons and Windfury Totem. Currently(in beta) both increase attack speed for melee.
For the Shaman:
Windfury Totem is known by all shaman, and increases attack speed for melee by 16% without talents.
For 2 talent points that is increased to 20%
The totem lasts for 2mins.
For the DK:
Icy Talons isn't known by all DK's, so if you're in another spec pretty deep you may not have this.
For the 20% Icy Talons effect for yourself, it will take 3 talent points in Imp Icy Touch. Then 5 points in Icy Talons, and then 1 more point so it affects the whole raid.
The procced effect lasts 20sec, but is refreshable.
In comparison, I think Imp Icy Talons should take less work to get to in the Frost Tree, seeing as it's on a shorter duration(even though it will always be up if you have Frost Fever out(See Tyr, you were right! The importance of diseases!), it's something not all DK's will be sporting, and it's a proc rather than an automatic effect.
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=9336665205&sid=2000
Jimmythenumbers wrote:
Melee Haste Buff: Improved Icy Talons, Windfury Totem
What this means:
The plan is to not have similar abilities stack in a raid situation, the list is on that link. Of that, is our Imp Icy Talons and Windfury Totem. Currently(in beta) both increase attack speed for melee.
For the Shaman:
Windfury Totem is known by all shaman, and increases attack speed for melee by 16% without talents.
For 2 talent points that is increased to 20%
The totem lasts for 2mins.
For the DK:
Icy Talons isn't known by all DK's, so if you're in another spec pretty deep you may not have this.
For the 20% Icy Talons effect for yourself, it will take 3 talent points in Imp Icy Touch. Then 5 points in Icy Talons, and then 1 more point so it affects the whole raid.
The procced effect lasts 20sec, but is refreshable.
In comparison, I think Imp Icy Talons should take less work to get to in the Frost Tree, seeing as it's on a shorter duration(even though it will always be up if you have Frost Fever out(See Tyr, you were right! The importance of diseases!), it's something not all DK's will be sporting, and it's a proc rather than an automatic effect.
Quote:
Here's the thing, at 2/2 all it does is make Icy Touch gives you 15rp instead of 10. Yes, I'm aware it also boost Chain of Ice and Howling Blast, but those two abilities are too situational while tanking to truly be worth talenting up.
As you've seen in my 'rotation' up there, the goal is to try to only use Icy Touch/Plague Strike when necessary, so every 20 seconds, so the debuff doesn't drop. Anything else lowers the amount of Death Strike/Obliterate you will push out.
As you've seen in my 'rotation' up there, the goal is to try to only use Icy Touch/Plague Strike when necessary, so every 20 seconds, so the debuff doesn't drop. Anything else lowers the amount of Death Strike/Obliterate you will push out.
Maybe I'm being stupid, but I thought howling blast was far superior to obliterate?
Quote:
Maybe I'm being stupid, but I thought howling blast was far superior to obliterate?
It depends on what you're after. Obliterate is higher damage and higher threat to a single target whereas Howling Blast is "superior" for multi-mob tanking because it hits multiple targets.
Edited, Aug 31st 2008 8:46am by SomnusSleeper
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