Yes i know this is just beta, but abilities wount change a HUGE amount.. so i might as well post it.....
talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight=00550210313003100000000000000050500100000000000000000000205000305123115050101000100000
Would this be a good tanking build for Raiding and 80 instances? Just trying to figure it out now so i wont have to take time away from lvling a death knight...
As you can see i have chosen... bone sheild....not sure if it's worth it? mark of blood for the health regen...would prolly pop it like a druids frenzied regeneration... Shadow of Death... any1 know if you keep aggo when you turn into a goul? anti magic shild seems like would be useful for caster boss like Lurker... Hex Lord.. etc. and lich borne for the insane 25% chance to miss.....
ty all in advance,
JZ
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DK tank buildFollow
No, it would not. This is what I would use were I to tank as a DK.
The idea is survival and threat generation. You lack survival.
The idea behind DK tanking, so the blue posts say, is that you'd be able to tank with any spec. By any I assume they mean deep builds.
Chances are, a DK's tanking ability is going to be defined by parry.
The idea is survival and threat generation. You lack survival.
The idea behind DK tanking, so the blue posts say, is that you'd be able to tank with any spec. By any I assume they mean deep builds.
Chances are, a DK's tanking ability is going to be defined by parry.
"Do you know what "nemesis" means? A righteous infliction of retribution manifested by an appropriate agent. Personified in this case by an 'orrible c*** : me."
25 posts
What are you getting that im not, except unbreakeable armor (which you would only use every 2 minutes) and with my build im getting 2% stamina increase and a 5% decrease in magic damage and a 10k bubble that reduces magic damage done by 75% .. and lichborne...and a gargoyle and a spell that makes my Rasise dead spell a pet....and bone shield....and 20% fear and stun reduction,and 5% more dodge....I dont understand... how is yours more survivability?
Edited, Aug 14th 2008 11:31pm by joshzoladz spelling!
Edited, Aug 14th 2008 11:37pm by joshzoladz
Edited, Aug 14th 2008 11:31pm by joshzoladz spelling!
Edited, Aug 14th 2008 11:37pm by joshzoladz
#4BillyRayValentine,
Posted: Aug 14 2008 at 8:57 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) More threat. Blood Aura. 100% of the healing you take the entire party gets.
I dont really think that's fair Billie, he wasnt particularly aggressive with his disagreement.
These are hardly the words of a flamer. You on the other hand have called him a jerk and a ****** in a single post, so I'd say you're coming off worse for the comparison.
Blizzard have indeed stated that a DK should be able to tank with any tree, I would concur that deep builds will be an advantage in some situations but with the talents set up as they are those advantages are getting slimmer with each patch.
Neither build presented is exactly perfect, but missing out Lichborne from Billie's build is just boneheaded. A 25% avoidance buff? Placed at 11pts so easily obtainable by any spec? That is an absolute must in my book, and missing it makes no sense whatsoever. Also, 5% dodge from Unholy is another excellent talent to pick up, avoidance being of paramount importance.
Billie, may I ask why you are putting points into Blood Aura when the whole point of Frost Presence is to increase armour AND threat? If I see a DK tanking with Blood Presence in anything but a niche encounter, I am quitting that group. Also, burning points on Blood Tap is plain insanity, the self healing is nowhere near enough to justify even wasting a Blood Rune on it, and it would bugger up your threat rotation.
Now I don't necessarily agree with deep Unholy as a tanking mechanic (I dont know the power of Gargoyle for a start) but any tank needs all the passive mitigation and avoidance talents he can get. That includes the Dodge, Parry and Armour bonuses, Lichborne and Frigid Dreadplate, and Unbreakable Armour if you can possibly get it. With Frost Presence (totally essential for any tank) active threat shouldnt be a problem.
Quote:
I dont understand... how is yours more survivability?
These are hardly the words of a flamer. You on the other hand have called him a jerk and a ****** in a single post, so I'd say you're coming off worse for the comparison.
Blizzard have indeed stated that a DK should be able to tank with any tree, I would concur that deep builds will be an advantage in some situations but with the talents set up as they are those advantages are getting slimmer with each patch.
Neither build presented is exactly perfect, but missing out Lichborne from Billie's build is just boneheaded. A 25% avoidance buff? Placed at 11pts so easily obtainable by any spec? That is an absolute must in my book, and missing it makes no sense whatsoever. Also, 5% dodge from Unholy is another excellent talent to pick up, avoidance being of paramount importance.
Billie, may I ask why you are putting points into Blood Aura when the whole point of Frost Presence is to increase armour AND threat? If I see a DK tanking with Blood Presence in anything but a niche encounter, I am quitting that group. Also, burning points on Blood Tap is plain insanity, the self healing is nowhere near enough to justify even wasting a Blood Rune on it, and it would bugger up your threat rotation.
Now I don't necessarily agree with deep Unholy as a tanking mechanic (I dont know the power of Gargoyle for a start) but any tank needs all the passive mitigation and avoidance talents he can get. That includes the Dodge, Parry and Armour bonuses, Lichborne and Frigid Dreadplate, and Unbreakable Armour if you can possibly get it. With Frost Presence (totally essential for any tank) active threat shouldnt be a problem.
25 posts
Thank you Sinstralis. I've read some on DK.. but didnt read about the Presence's.
What do they do,and how far into a tree to get them?
PS. The blood aura thing only increases the pitiful healing from damage not healing done to you
PSS. a new tanking build using the good frost talents plus the magic damage restiances and 2% stamina increase and LOTS more threat.
look somewhat better? I know I could prolly get slightly better by specing in frost more but i like the magic reduction and the sweet abilities like blowing up a corpse.. and summoning a gargoyle... and controlling your raise dead spell and staying as a goul for 45sec... is all the neat features worth it?
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight=00500200000000000000000000000051500133530000100000000000205030305120115051101000100000
Edited, Aug 15th 2008 11:05am by joshzoladz
What do they do,and how far into a tree to get them?
PS. The blood aura thing only increases the pitiful healing from damage not healing done to you
PSS. a new tanking build using the good frost talents plus the magic damage restiances and 2% stamina increase and LOTS more threat.
look somewhat better? I know I could prolly get slightly better by specing in frost more but i like the magic reduction and the sweet abilities like blowing up a corpse.. and summoning a gargoyle... and controlling your raise dead spell and staying as a goul for 45sec... is all the neat features worth it?
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight=00500200000000000000000000000051500133530000100000000000205030305120115051101000100000
Edited, Aug 15th 2008 11:05am by joshzoladz
joshzoladz wrote:
Thank you Sinstralis. I've read some on DK.. but didnt read about the Presence's.
What do they do,and how far into a tree to get them?
What do they do,and how far into a tree to get them?
Presences are like Warrior Stances: you don't spec for them, you just have them at all times.
Quote:
The Death Knight will have three presences they can choose from at any time (similar to stances) to best fit their current task. They are as follows:
* Blood Presence: Increases damage done by 15% and returns back 4% of the damage done as health.
* Frost Presence: Increases armor by 45%, magic resistance by 57, and threat generated by 45%.
* Unholy Presence: Increases attack speed by 15%, movement speed by s49972% and reduces the global cooldown on all Death Knight abilities by 0.5 sec.
* Blood Presence: Increases damage done by 15% and returns back 4% of the damage done as health.
* Frost Presence: Increases armor by 45%, magic resistance by 57, and threat generated by 45%.
* Unholy Presence: Increases attack speed by 15%, movement speed by s49972% and reduces the global cooldown on all Death Knight abilities by 0.5 sec.
EDIT: I fail at quoting :P
Edited, Aug 15th 2008 6:28pm by Maulgak
I'm personally having a really hard time nailing down a pure tanking spec for a DK. This is what I came up with trying to play to the whole "DK's are magic tanks" angle, but I'm sure it leaves a lot to be desired. Honestly, I think the class a whole needs help for tanking. I don't really buy into Blizzard's "any spec can do it" stance on DK tanking when I don't think any spec has the tools to do it. Every time I look at their ability and talent list I just end up thinking the same thing: pre-TBC Bears and Prot Pallies.
Tanking takes three things: threat, mitigation, and stamina. I don't think DK's will have any problem whatsoever with threat, but their mitigation is questionable and they've got almost no stamina-increasing talents. The ones they do have access to are insufficient and spread out among their trees in awkward places. I still don't expect to see this class main-tanking much, if any, raid content.
Edited, Aug 18th 2008 1:48pm by Gaudion
Tanking takes three things: threat, mitigation, and stamina. I don't think DK's will have any problem whatsoever with threat, but their mitigation is questionable and they've got almost no stamina-increasing talents. The ones they do have access to are insufficient and spread out among their trees in awkward places. I still don't expect to see this class main-tanking much, if any, raid content.
Edited, Aug 18th 2008 1:48pm by Gaudion
The big problem I see on the horizon is Stamina. DKs have less stamina-stacking talents than any other 'tank' class and they are scattered widely in odd places in the trees. Hell, Prot Paladins get +16%sta from talents and they are hard enough to gear up to the MT baseline of 12k unbuffed, DKs are going to find it even tougher.
Also, consider that without Frost Presence, no DK spec has any tanking ability whatsoever. Just make Frost Aura increase Stamina by 10% for the group and be done with it, at least it'd be a competetive class then.
Unless Blizzard plan on releasing 2H swords with 200sta on them for this one purpose alone, I don't see how a DK could tank anything right now. I am hoping, praying, that gear scaling at 80 somehow sorts the whole horrid mess out, or DKs are granted some awesome avoidance/mitigation passives. The removal of Forceful Deflection just made me cringe, it was a beautifully unique talent thrown to the wolves, presumably to balance vs Rogues or something unnecessary.
I'm horribly afraid also that Blizzard are setting DKs up as the 'sacrificial lamb', a toy tank for 5mans (to fight the 'shortage' for the benefit of existing players) but forced to spec DPS for raids.
Protadins before the Combat Expertise buff, basically.
Also, consider that without Frost Presence, no DK spec has any tanking ability whatsoever. Just make Frost Aura increase Stamina by 10% for the group and be done with it, at least it'd be a competetive class then.
Unless Blizzard plan on releasing 2H swords with 200sta on them for this one purpose alone, I don't see how a DK could tank anything right now. I am hoping, praying, that gear scaling at 80 somehow sorts the whole horrid mess out, or DKs are granted some awesome avoidance/mitigation passives. The removal of Forceful Deflection just made me cringe, it was a beautifully unique talent thrown to the wolves, presumably to balance vs Rogues or something unnecessary.
I'm horribly afraid also that Blizzard are setting DKs up as the 'sacrificial lamb', a toy tank for 5mans (to fight the 'shortage' for the benefit of existing players) but forced to spec DPS for raids.
Protadins before the Combat Expertise buff, basically.
last i heard, the "aura" talents were being made so that they are active full time, regardless of your presence, as soon as they are specced. thus, you can be a blood-specced tank in frost presence getting the armor bonus and blood aura bonus.
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=9023683126&postId=90227517361&sid=2000#7
thats what i assume is meant by the above link anyway.
heres another:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=8765633099&postId=87646774480&sid=2000#24
bit clearer that one.
Edited, Aug 17th 2008 3:50am by Quor
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=9023683126&postId=90227517361&sid=2000#7
thats what i assume is meant by the above link anyway.
heres another:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=8765633099&postId=87646774480&sid=2000#24
bit clearer that one.
Edited, Aug 17th 2008 3:50am by Quor
If you went with Billy's build for Blood Aura, you could indeed share healing with your raid. But since you'd be in Frost Presence and not Blood Presence when tanking, you wouldn't be getting the 4% health back from all of your damage and thus it would be a complete and total waste. Blood Aura is only useful for Blood Knights who are going to be DPS-ing in Blood Presence. It's a DPS talent meant to give raiding utility, not a tanking talent to increase survivability.
Edited, Aug 17th 2008 12:47pm by Gaudion
Edited, Aug 17th 2008 12:47pm by Gaudion
Not quite sure what's the point of getting Blood Aura for tanking... it heals your entire party for the damage YOU deal... I guess it could be useful to keep your party toped off?
Why you took icy reach of all thing is also beyond me Billy... as well as Chillblain, why do you want to snare your tanked target exactly?
I'd go for something like this, http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=j0eMVZhxxtIezooRVosZ0xM
A few points:
Frost Strike and Guile of Gorefiend (if only for the extra 6 second on icebound fortitude) are going to be great for tanking. The DK's main way to build threat is to deal big spike damage, Frost Strike is essentially 'free' threat every 50 runic power.
Howling Blast is just pure sex for AE tanking. For 1 point, it's way worth taking.
Not taking Runic Power Mastery and Annihilation are big mistake imo... once again, you're losing out on an incredinly strong threat builder (Obliterate) and Runic Power Mastery makes so many other ability more powerful - including Frost Strike.
Lichborn is on 1 minute cooldown and cost nothing - that's +25% dodge 16.7% of the time? No brainer again.
In Unholy, Anticipation is a non-brainer once again... Death Grip also acts as a taunt (on top of 'get over here!') and Bloodboil is taunt... so having both on shorter CD is a smart idea.
Edited, Aug 17th 2008 3:33pm by Tyrandor
Why you took icy reach of all thing is also beyond me Billy... as well as Chillblain, why do you want to snare your tanked target exactly?
I'd go for something like this, http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=j0eMVZhxxtIezooRVosZ0xM
A few points:
Frost Strike and Guile of Gorefiend (if only for the extra 6 second on icebound fortitude) are going to be great for tanking. The DK's main way to build threat is to deal big spike damage, Frost Strike is essentially 'free' threat every 50 runic power.
Howling Blast is just pure sex for AE tanking. For 1 point, it's way worth taking.
Not taking Runic Power Mastery and Annihilation are big mistake imo... once again, you're losing out on an incredinly strong threat builder (Obliterate) and Runic Power Mastery makes so many other ability more powerful - including Frost Strike.
Lichborn is on 1 minute cooldown and cost nothing - that's +25% dodge 16.7% of the time? No brainer again.
In Unholy, Anticipation is a non-brainer once again... Death Grip also acts as a taunt (on top of 'get over here!') and Bloodboil is taunt... so having both on shorter CD is a smart idea.
Edited, Aug 17th 2008 3:33pm by Tyrandor
Well looking at Billie's avatar, I'm gonna guess he's a Mage main and therefore perhaps a bit hazy on what a tank actually, y'know, does. Could be wrong of course.
More to the subject, Im actually seeing a three-tree hybrid build as the only way to spec a decent DK tank, in fact I might say that is Blizzard's intention; many of the really strong PvP/DPS talents live in the bottom areas of the trees, byforcing encouraging a min/max tank to grab talents from Blood and Unholy as well as (let's face it) Frost their potential to use shiny toys like Hungering Cold is removed.
Yes I think a DK could actually tank 5mans with any spec at all, relying on Blood Boil and Icebound Fortitude, but 10mans and up will require, as always, a spec that in some way gimps DPS/utility in favour of avoidance and tanking.
I'm really not sure what chocolate-coated fantasy land Blizzard live in where this would not be the case.
EDIT:
By the way Tyr, I like your build but I'd take the 3pts out of Bladed Armour and put it in Subversion for 9% more crit on Obliterate., and since I really don't like Blood of the North I'd redistribute those points thus: http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=jcxMVZhxxtIekooR0osZ0xMhz
Corpse Explosion might seem like an odd choice, but it's cheap on RP and offers another AoE damage mechanic when HB is on cooldown.
Just to clear up the Aura thing; in the current incarnation, Blood Aura gives your party 100% of the healing you get from your own abilities. The DK self-healing mechanics are Blood Worms and Death Coil. You will not be using either of these, DC wastes Runic Power (and in a raid situation doesnt heal much) and Bloodworms won't last five seconds in a boss encounter. Even if Auras become Presence-independent, it's a dumb idea.
Edited, Aug 17th 2008 11:15pm by Sinstralis
More to the subject, Im actually seeing a three-tree hybrid build as the only way to spec a decent DK tank, in fact I might say that is Blizzard's intention; many of the really strong PvP/DPS talents live in the bottom areas of the trees, by
Yes I think a DK could actually tank 5mans with any spec at all, relying on Blood Boil and Icebound Fortitude, but 10mans and up will require, as always, a spec that in some way gimps DPS/utility in favour of avoidance and tanking.
I'm really not sure what chocolate-coated fantasy land Blizzard live in where this would not be the case.
EDIT:
By the way Tyr, I like your build but I'd take the 3pts out of Bladed Armour and put it in Subversion for 9% more crit on Obliterate., and since I really don't like Blood of the North I'd redistribute those points thus: http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=jcxMVZhxxtIekooR0osZ0xMhz
Corpse Explosion might seem like an odd choice, but it's cheap on RP and offers another AoE damage mechanic when HB is on cooldown.
Just to clear up the Aura thing; in the current incarnation, Blood Aura gives your party 100% of the healing you get from your own abilities. The DK self-healing mechanics are Blood Worms and Death Coil. You will not be using either of these, DC wastes Runic Power (and in a raid situation doesnt heal much) and Bloodworms won't last five seconds in a boss encounter. Even if Auras become Presence-independent, it's a dumb idea.
Edited, Aug 17th 2008 11:15pm by Sinstralis
#14BillyRayValentine,
Posted: Aug 17 2008 at 9:42 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I know what a tank actually does.
Yeah, except Blood Aura isn't the only thing that makes no sense in your build...
And even if Blood did work the way you thought it did, that'd be like saying Shadow Priest are the best healer because of vampiric aura.
You took Icy Reach, Chillbain and Endless Winter, 3 talents that gives nothing to a tank on top of going extremely high in Blood (Way higher then a tank needs to go) and ignored really good talent. In other words, your tanking spec is a terrible tanking spec >_>.
And then you go on and call somebody a Death Tard because he question your tanking build... irony much?
Good point.
A DK who isn't AE tanking will pretty much use Blood Strike because... well, he has no choice if he wants to get Blade Barrier up.
Let face it, Bloodstrike is a bit useless for a DK... unless he has Blood of the North. His Blood rune (one or both, depending) turning into Death Runes open up a lot more possibility to use things like Obliterate or Death Strike. Seen this way, every 2 Blood Strike gives him 1 more Obliterate/Death Strike, or it gives you a bit more flexibility in re-applying Frost Fever, Blood Plague or re-starting Death a Decay... assuming he has blood of the north.
As for your build;
I think Blood of the North will be much more useful than Ravenous Dead for the reason mentioned above.
Corpse Explosion is interesting for AE Tanking, but it's totally useless for bosses... I guess it'll depend what DK are used for the most in raids.... I'd personally fill out 'Chill of the Grave' to 2/2 over taking it.
Edited, Aug 18th 2008 12:00pm by Tyrandor
And even if Blood did work the way you thought it did, that'd be like saying Shadow Priest are the best healer because of vampiric aura.
You took Icy Reach, Chillbain and Endless Winter, 3 talents that gives nothing to a tank on top of going extremely high in Blood (Way higher then a tank needs to go) and ignored really good talent. In other words, your tanking spec is a terrible tanking spec >_>.
And then you go on and call somebody a Death Tard because he question your tanking build... irony much?
Quote:
By the way Tyr, I like your build but I'd take the 3pts out of Bladed Armour and put it in Subversion for 9% more crit on Obliterate.
Good point.
Quote:
and since I really don't like Blood of the North
A DK who isn't AE tanking will pretty much use Blood Strike because... well, he has no choice if he wants to get Blade Barrier up.
Let face it, Bloodstrike is a bit useless for a DK... unless he has Blood of the North. His Blood rune (one or both, depending) turning into Death Runes open up a lot more possibility to use things like Obliterate or Death Strike. Seen this way, every 2 Blood Strike gives him 1 more Obliterate/Death Strike, or it gives you a bit more flexibility in re-applying Frost Fever, Blood Plague or re-starting Death a Decay... assuming he has blood of the north.
As for your build;
I think Blood of the North will be much more useful than Ravenous Dead for the reason mentioned above.
Corpse Explosion is interesting for AE Tanking, but it's totally useless for bosses... I guess it'll depend what DK are used for the most in raids.... I'd personally fill out 'Chill of the Grave' to 2/2 over taking it.
Edited, Aug 18th 2008 12:00pm by Tyrandor
Quote:
Yeah, except Blood Aura isn't the only thing that makes no sense in your build...
I actually had almost precisely what you said here typed out and ready to post, but I deleted it... I'm glad I wasnt the only one to come to that conclusion. Chillblains in particular was just... 0.o
Quote:
I think Blood of the North will be much more useful than Ravenous Dead for the reason mentioned above.
Mmm... you make good points Tyr, I have to confess my choices were partially affected by my own abhorrence of gimping myself with a tank spec. I hate not being able to DPS or play solo content efficiently because I'm 'tank spec', Protection Paladins are a nightmare for that at 70, so I was aiming for a build that could do a little solo DPS as well :). I was personally expecting to use Obliterate as a tank DK rather than Blood Strike, specifically in order to burn Runes for Barrier; Icy/Blood/Oblit was looking like a good rotation, considering the inflated crit chance on them, and Obliterate at present does an absolute ton of damage, more so than the BS+IT it would replace in the rotation.
Fortunately though, there is room in the big wide world for us both to be right :).
Well, you're cutting down a lot of damage from Obliterate and a lot of healing from Death Strike if you don't also include Plague Strike in there. Not to mention that threat reduction of not having 1 more dot on the guy and the diminished effectivness of Blood Boil and Pestilence.
I'm assuming most DK will pull with Icy Touch and then follow up with Death Strike and then drop D&D Decay... this leave you with 1 Blood Rune up. If you're multi-mob tanking, using pestilence is a no brainer, if you aren't, you might as well use Blood Strike. And that triggers Blade Barrier.
Problem is, you won't have the runes to do an Oblit or Death Strike for about 10 seconds from that point... and by the time your runes come out, you'll most likely need to re-apply Plague Strike (blood plauge only last 20 seconds). That's why I'm saying Blood of the North help here... you can essentially convert your Blood runes into Death Runes, so you're going into a secondary rotation with your blood/death runes... Your Blood Runes become Blood Strike into Plague Strike and Blood Strike into Icy Touch respectively. Meanwhile using your real unholy/frost runes for oblit/death strike spam.
Without Blood of the North, you have to waste 1 Oblit/Death Strike per cooldown on re-applying Frost Fever and/or Blood Plague with your frost/unholy rune.
In other words, you'll be able to keep both disease up and do MORE Oblit/Death Strike this way then you would without it.
I understand the sentiment, but I'm raider - I'd much rather have the optimal spec for my task and respec if i want to do something else.
Beside, I also believe blood of the north will result in a better dps rotation due to a lot more double disease obliterate going out.
Doubly so since this is a beta and thing are bound to change.
I'm assuming most DK will pull with Icy Touch and then follow up with Death Strike and then drop D&D Decay... this leave you with 1 Blood Rune up. If you're multi-mob tanking, using pestilence is a no brainer, if you aren't, you might as well use Blood Strike. And that triggers Blade Barrier.
Problem is, you won't have the runes to do an Oblit or Death Strike for about 10 seconds from that point... and by the time your runes come out, you'll most likely need to re-apply Plague Strike (blood plauge only last 20 seconds). That's why I'm saying Blood of the North help here... you can essentially convert your Blood runes into Death Runes, so you're going into a secondary rotation with your blood/death runes... Your Blood Runes become Blood Strike into Plague Strike and Blood Strike into Icy Touch respectively. Meanwhile using your real unholy/frost runes for oblit/death strike spam.
Without Blood of the North, you have to waste 1 Oblit/Death Strike per cooldown on re-applying Frost Fever and/or Blood Plague with your frost/unholy rune.
In other words, you'll be able to keep both disease up and do MORE Oblit/Death Strike this way then you would without it.
Quote:
I hate not being able to DPS or play solo content efficiently because I'm 'tank spec', Protection Paladins are a nightmare for that at 70, so I was aiming for a build that could do a little solo DPS as well :).
I understand the sentiment, but I'm raider - I'd much rather have the optimal spec for my task and respec if i want to do something else.
Beside, I also believe blood of the north will result in a better dps rotation due to a lot more double disease obliterate going out.
Quote:
Fortunately though, there is room in the big wide world for us both to be right :).
Doubly so since this is a beta and thing are bound to change.
Warchief Tyrandor wrote:
Quote:
I hate not being able to DPS or play solo content efficiently because I'm 'tank spec', Protection Paladins are a nightmare for that at 70, so I was aiming for a build that could do a little solo DPS as well :).
I understand the sentiment, but I'm raider - I'd much rather have the optimal spec for my task and respec if i want to do something else.
Unfortunately for all of us, even with the "perfect" tanking spec I don't think DK's are going to be doing anything other than off-tanking trash in raid content until Blizzard gets their heads out of that, as Sinstralis put it, "chocolate-coated fantasy land". No one knows what kind of avoidance/mitigation you're going to need at 70, but without at least a substantial stamina buff... just not going to happen.
Hypothetical question here. Frost Strike is more damage than Death Coil, but is it that much better for tanking that it's worth the talent point? I'm just trying to imagine a scenario where speccing to tank with a DK might eventually look like speccing to tank with a Paladin, where every last point is crucial and not like a Warrior or Druid tank build, where they have points to play with.
To illustrate my point, let's look at a rotation with Blood of the North...
For the sake of simplicity, I'm going to ignore Death & Decay here, since it really throws a monkeywrench in the whole process. I'm also going to keep out runic ability, since they're largely irrelevant in this context.
Step 1
0.0 1 Frost; Icy Touch (20 second Frost fever)
1.5 1 Unholy; Plague Strike (20 second Blood plague)
3.0 1 Unholy/1 Frost; Obliterate/Death Strike
4.5 1 Blood; Blood Strike
6.0 1 Blood; Blood Strike
- Proc Blade Barrier.
Now that we got the ball rolling,
Step 2
10.0 Frost Rune Refresh.
11.5 Unholy Refresh. 1 Unholy/1 Frost; Obliterate/Death Strike
13.0 Unholy/Frost Refresh, 1 Unholy/1 Frost; Obliterate/Death Strike
14.0 Blood Barrier fades
14.5 Blood Refresh into Death; 1 Death; Icy Touch (refresh Frost Fever)
16.0 Blood Refresh into Death; 1 Death; Plauge Strike (refresh Blood Plague)
- Proc Blade Barrier.
Step 3
21.5 Unholy/Frost Refresh, 1 Unholy/1 Frost; Obliterate/Death Strike
23.0 Unholy/Frost Refresh, 1 Unholy/1 Frost; Obliterate/Death Strike
24.0 Blood Barrier fades
24.5 1 Blood refresh; Blood Strike
26.0 1 Blood refresh; Blood Strike
- Proc Blade Barrier.
Step 4
Repeat Step 2 and Step 3, rinse and repeat.
As you can see, you get to keep Frost Fever/Blood Plague up at all time. You get to do 2 double disease obliterate/death striker per set of cooldown. And you only have a 2 second downtime on Blade Barrier.
Now, without Blood of the North...
Step 1
0.0 1 Frost; Icy Touch (20 second Frost fever)
1.5 1 Unholy; Plague Strike (20 second Blood plague)
3.0 1 Unholy/1 Frost; Obliterate/Death Strike
4.5 1 Blood; Blood Strike
6.0 1 Blood; Blood Strike
- Proc Blade Barrier.
Step 2
10.0 Frost Rune Refresh.
11.5 Unholy Refresh. 1 Unholy/1 Frost; Obliterate/Death Strike
13.0 Unholy/Frost Refresh, 1 Unholy/1 Frost; Obliterate/Death Strike
14.0 Blood Barrier fades
14.5 Blood Refresh; 1 Blood; Blood Strike
16.0 Blood Refresh; 1 Blood; Blood Strike
- Proc Blade Barrier.
Step 3
20.0 Frost Fever Fades
21.5 Blood Plague Fades; Unholy/Frost Refresh; 1 Frost, Icy Touch (refresh Frost Fever)
23.0 Unholy/Frost Refresh; 1 Unholy, Plague Strike (refresh Blood Plauge)
24.0 Blade Barrier Fades
24.5 1 Blood refresh; 1 Unholy/1 Frost; Obliterate/Death Strike
26.0 1 Blood refresh; 1 Blood; Blood Strike
27.5 1 Blood; Blood Strike
-Proc Blade Barrier
I'm going to stop here, but suffice to say it gets messy. And it only get uglier if you throw in Death & Decay in there...
You have more blade barrier downtime (3.5 sec instead of 2), you lose out on 1 Obliterate per rotation and you're going to have a hard time keeping both disease up at all time. You spend the whole fight playing catch up with your timers and any little mistake you make is going to make you suffer... while the Blood of the North DK has a really smooth rotation that essentially take care of itself.
And ultimately, the lost of Obliterate/DS will also lower your dps/survability in solo pve as well, meaning you're actually WORSE at solo if you don't take it.
So yeah, Blood of the North is a pretty big deal if you want to use Oblit/DS... Now this doesn't necessarily mean much, it's quite possible that Blood Strike will end up being a 'better' threat builder overall then Death/Obliterate so that Blood of the North won't be good for tanking... but I honestly highly doubt that.
Hypothetical question here. Frost Strike is more damage than Death Coil, but is it that much better for tanking that it's worth the talent point? I'm just trying to imagine a scenario where speccing to tank with a DK might eventually look like speccing to tank with a Paladin, where every last point is crucial and not like a Warrior or Druid tank build, where they have points to play with.
Well, it is only 1 point and considering you'll want to go pretty deep in the Frost Tree as a tank, it's most likely not going to be a big deal to pick it up.
Remember that for every rotation up there (in my examples), they would have been a RP dump near the end... so you actually get to use Frost Strike/Death Coil about 6 time per minute, upgrading from DC to FS thus is a pretty big deal.
Frost Strike does more damage because it's based off weapon damage, it has a +X component and lastly, it synergise with killing machine and death chill.
Once again, it's hard to say without any level 80 DK running level 80 content as tanks... but considering that the DK's threat come from damage, this seems like a pretty obvious choice.
Edited, Aug 18th 2008 2:21pm by Tyrandor
For the sake of simplicity, I'm going to ignore Death & Decay here, since it really throws a monkeywrench in the whole process. I'm also going to keep out runic ability, since they're largely irrelevant in this context.
Step 1
0.0 1 Frost; Icy Touch (20 second Frost fever)
1.5 1 Unholy; Plague Strike (20 second Blood plague)
3.0 1 Unholy/1 Frost; Obliterate/Death Strike
4.5 1 Blood; Blood Strike
6.0 1 Blood; Blood Strike
- Proc Blade Barrier.
Now that we got the ball rolling,
Step 2
10.0 Frost Rune Refresh.
11.5 Unholy Refresh. 1 Unholy/1 Frost; Obliterate/Death Strike
13.0 Unholy/Frost Refresh, 1 Unholy/1 Frost; Obliterate/Death Strike
14.0 Blood Barrier fades
14.5 Blood Refresh into Death; 1 Death; Icy Touch (refresh Frost Fever)
16.0 Blood Refresh into Death; 1 Death; Plauge Strike (refresh Blood Plague)
- Proc Blade Barrier.
Step 3
21.5 Unholy/Frost Refresh, 1 Unholy/1 Frost; Obliterate/Death Strike
23.0 Unholy/Frost Refresh, 1 Unholy/1 Frost; Obliterate/Death Strike
24.0 Blood Barrier fades
24.5 1 Blood refresh; Blood Strike
26.0 1 Blood refresh; Blood Strike
- Proc Blade Barrier.
Step 4
Repeat Step 2 and Step 3, rinse and repeat.
As you can see, you get to keep Frost Fever/Blood Plague up at all time. You get to do 2 double disease obliterate/death striker per set of cooldown. And you only have a 2 second downtime on Blade Barrier.
Now, without Blood of the North...
Step 1
0.0 1 Frost; Icy Touch (20 second Frost fever)
1.5 1 Unholy; Plague Strike (20 second Blood plague)
3.0 1 Unholy/1 Frost; Obliterate/Death Strike
4.5 1 Blood; Blood Strike
6.0 1 Blood; Blood Strike
- Proc Blade Barrier.
Step 2
10.0 Frost Rune Refresh.
11.5 Unholy Refresh. 1 Unholy/1 Frost; Obliterate/Death Strike
13.0 Unholy/Frost Refresh, 1 Unholy/1 Frost; Obliterate/Death Strike
14.0 Blood Barrier fades
14.5 Blood Refresh; 1 Blood; Blood Strike
16.0 Blood Refresh; 1 Blood; Blood Strike
- Proc Blade Barrier.
Step 3
20.0 Frost Fever Fades
21.5 Blood Plague Fades; Unholy/Frost Refresh; 1 Frost, Icy Touch (refresh Frost Fever)
23.0 Unholy/Frost Refresh; 1 Unholy, Plague Strike (refresh Blood Plauge)
24.0 Blade Barrier Fades
24.5 1 Blood refresh; 1 Unholy/1 Frost; Obliterate/Death Strike
26.0 1 Blood refresh; 1 Blood; Blood Strike
27.5 1 Blood; Blood Strike
-Proc Blade Barrier
I'm going to stop here, but suffice to say it gets messy. And it only get uglier if you throw in Death & Decay in there...
You have more blade barrier downtime (3.5 sec instead of 2), you lose out on 1 Obliterate per rotation and you're going to have a hard time keeping both disease up at all time. You spend the whole fight playing catch up with your timers and any little mistake you make is going to make you suffer... while the Blood of the North DK has a really smooth rotation that essentially take care of itself.
And ultimately, the lost of Obliterate/DS will also lower your dps/survability in solo pve as well, meaning you're actually WORSE at solo if you don't take it.
So yeah, Blood of the North is a pretty big deal if you want to use Oblit/DS... Now this doesn't necessarily mean much, it's quite possible that Blood Strike will end up being a 'better' threat builder overall then Death/Obliterate so that Blood of the North won't be good for tanking... but I honestly highly doubt that.
Quote:
Hypothetical question here. Frost Strike is more damage than Death Coil, but is it that much better for tanking that it's worth the talent point? I'm just trying to imagine a scenario where speccing to tank with a DK might eventually look like speccing to tank with a Paladin, where every last point is crucial and not like a Warrior or Druid tank build, where they have points to play with.
Well, it is only 1 point and considering you'll want to go pretty deep in the Frost Tree as a tank, it's most likely not going to be a big deal to pick it up.
Remember that for every rotation up there (in my examples), they would have been a RP dump near the end... so you actually get to use Frost Strike/Death Coil about 6 time per minute, upgrading from DC to FS thus is a pretty big deal.
Frost Strike does more damage because it's based off weapon damage, it has a +X component and lastly, it synergise with killing machine and death chill.
Once again, it's hard to say without any level 80 DK running level 80 content as tanks... but considering that the DK's threat come from damage, this seems like a pretty obvious choice.
Edited, Aug 18th 2008 2:21pm by Tyrandor
Quote:
Unfortunately for all of us, even with the "perfect" tanking spec I don't think DK's are going to be doing anything other than off-tanking trash in raid content until Blizzard gets their heads out of that, as Sinstralis put it, "chocolate-coated fantasy land". No one knows what kind of avoidance/mitigation you're going to need at 70, but without at least a substantial stamina buff... just not going to happen.
blizz is quite adamant that all three DK specs be able to tank and DPS with equal faculty, if not all in one spec. they want to make tanking less of a "ill martyr myself for the good of the raid" and more of a "ill spec tank, but not gimp my ability to enjoy the rest of the game by doing so". i think they can do it, but it needs a lot more refining (and a level 80 cap to test with as well).
Quote:
Hypothetical question here. Frost Strike is more damage than Death Coil, but is it that much better for tanking that it's worth the talent point?
currently, yes. it ignores armor and gets a much bigger bonus from AP than death coil (i think DC gets like .21 or .31 damage/ap conversion, while frost strike is normalized at 3.3). its pretty much meant to replace death coil for deep frost DKs except in situations of high frost resist or where a ranged attack is require (i.e. runners).
Quote:
currently, yes. it ignores armor and gets a much bigger bonus from AP than death coil (i think DC gets like .21 or .31 damage/ap conversion, while frost strike is normalized at 3.3). its pretty much meant to replace death coil for deep frost DKs except in situations of high frost resist...
Yeah, Frost Strike really is all kinds of awesome. It counts as a melee special ability so it benefits from the +crit on Annihilation, it can be forced to crit with Deathchill, and it can get free crits from Killing Machine.
With all respect to Ty'r theory about Death Strike, I strongly disagree that tanks will be healing themselves with DC or DS, that's the healer's job. Obliterate is overwhelmingly more powerful for the same investment, self-healing I don't see as a significant factor here.
Quote:
...or where a ranged attack is require (i.e. runners).
You'd still use Icy Touch, as it snares too.
Quote:
blizz is quite adamant that all three DK specs be able to tank and DPS with equal faculty
And they are currently quite, quite wrong. I'm not saying it's impossible and I sincerely hope they can do it, but the simple fact is the numbers don't add up. Shield Block Rating is gained via +Defense and also sits on about 50% of current tank plate items, meaning DKs will, completely unavoidably at present, gain mathematically less avoidance/mitigation from the same piece of gear as a Warrior/Paladin. Since they nerfed Forceful Deflection there is no way currently to regain those lost item points, leaving DK survivability lacking in both damage reduction and raw HP pool. The only way I can think to rectify that is to abandon the 'Shield' stats entirely for lvl80 gear and focus on Parry/Dodge/Def for all plate tanks, but Prot Paladins will then be left out in the cold, requiring their own set of gear with SBR on it. It's a bad situation, to be honest.
Blizzard have 'stated' many things in the past and got it shockingly wrong, I wouldnt expect miracles this time. Presently, I see each tree about one talent mechanic short for tanking. A bit of Dodge + Bone Armour does not a Main Tank make. I'd like to see a stacking Parry bonus from expending Runes, 10parry every time you use a Rune, stacking 15 times or something. That'd make it less of an immediate advantage for PvP while steadily increasing avoidance in boss fights. Just an idea, but by jimminy DKs need something unless lvl80 endgame is just going to be obscenely easy.
Quote:
With all respect to Ty'r theory about Death Strike, I strongly disagree that tanks will be healing themselves with DC or DS, that's the healer's job. Obliterate is overwhelmingly more powerful for the same investment, self-healing I don't see as a significant factor here.
I have a theory about Death Strike? ;p
Quote:
You'd still use Icy Touch, as it snares too.
touch costs a rune tho, while DC doesnt. granted, if you had too, you could use both (and theres no reason not too really, if you have the resources) but if youve just blown your frost runes then obviously you cant touch, and if all itll take to finish a runner is another DC, then why waste the frost rune if you have the power? in short, its not completely useless, it just becomes much more situational.
Quote:
And they are currently quite, quite wrong. I'm not saying it's impossible and I sincerely hope they can do it, but the simple fact is the numbers don't add up. Shield Block Rating is gained via +Defense and also sits on about 50% of current tank plate items, meaning DKs will, completely unavoidably at present, gain mathematically less avoidance/mitigation from the same piece of gear as a Warrior/Paladin. Since they nerfed Forceful Deflection there is no way currently to regain those lost item points, leaving DK survivability lacking in both damage reduction and raw HP pool. The only way I can think to rectify that is to abandon the 'Shield' stats entirely for lvl80 gear and focus on Parry/Dodge/Def for all plate tanks, but Prot Paladins will then be left out in the cold, requiring their own set of gear with SBR on it. It's a bad situation, to be honest.
well, its still fairly early in beta, so theres plenty of time to sort things out. SBR i dont think is going to have nearly as much influence as believe, since crushes have been effectively removed in terms of practical use. str has been valued very highly, and with forceful deflection being made baseline, this provides DK's, wars, and pallies with a lot of mitigation as well as mucho AP for more damage and threat.
in terms of defense, itll be as valuable for DK's as it is for druids, which is to say itll be good, but potentially replaceable and/or supplemented by resilience. since pvp gear historically has high str, stam, and armor, its not a stretch to assume a few pvp pieces will be a part of the average DK tank gear setup.
Quote:
in terms of defense, itll be as valuable for DK's as it is for druids
Pre-christonaunicycle-cisely! Druids do not have an equal defense baseline to Warriors, a fact compensated for (in BC anyway) by their having almost comical armour values (seriously, why don't we just hunt Bear Druids and make armour from their apparently impregnable skin...) and extremely high HP pools, as well as better Dodge scaling from Agility. Blizzard recognised that Defense gear was of less benefit to a class without a shield to block with so buffed other abilities through talents to match. Now I agree that with Crushing on the way out it will be much less of an issue, but SBV is still mitigation that DKs will ultimately miss out on, without any apparent way to make up for the loss. Blade Barrier is a good start I guess, but the conditions for proccing it are harsh and easy to ***** up.
I don't mean to sound like I'm whining about a class that isnt even finished, and I am certainly not saying DKs can't tank... just at present, when you compare them directly to a Warrior or even a Protadin (Druid tanking looks a bit fuzzy in Wottle) they lose out, mathematically, on HP and mitigation :\. Since I'm giving great consideration to rolling one, it'd suck to sink the time in only to find you've got the last turkey in the shop and have to wait to 3.2.1 or something for a 'review'.
Edited, Aug 19th 2008 10:14am by Sinstralis
I would almost argue the usefulness of Icy Reach, if only for the fact that it extends the range of Howling Blast. Not that it's important compared to.. well, most any talent available. But I could see someone using it for that reason.
I myself am probably going to be swinging this spec at 80, depending on changes of course:
http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=jbxGZhxxzIed0oRVosZcxMcz
Hard to judge on some things as most everything I fight dies before I get a 2nd rotation finished in Outland. But based off other sites and Tyr's collection of timing examples this is what I've come up with. I almost wonder if Epidemic would be worth it as well, but again.. Things are dying too fast to tell.
I myself am probably going to be swinging this spec at 80, depending on changes of course:
http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=jbxGZhxxzIed0oRVosZcxMcz
Hard to judge on some things as most everything I fight dies before I get a 2nd rotation finished in Outland. But based off other sites and Tyr's collection of timing examples this is what I've come up with. I almost wonder if Epidemic would be worth it as well, but again.. Things are dying too fast to tell.
Improved Icy Talon is going to be a must have for any raiding frost DK.
Maybe not for 5man/solo dk, but if you intend to raid as frost, you simply have to take it.
Maybe not for 5man/solo dk, but if you intend to raid as frost, you simply have to take it.
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