First off, the newest changes:
Shield Wall, Recklessness and Retaliation all moved to a 5 minute timer, 12s duration. Shield Wall is now 50% instead of 75% and Recklessness now has a limited number of charges (and only effects yellow damage), but uh... Arenas are going to be intriguing.
Impale moved down to tier 3 and is now the prereq for Deep Wounds, also on Tier 3. Deep Wounds moved to a 6s duration for 48% weapon damage instead of 12s for 60%, which is a net boost of 60% damage when it's active but hurts Deep Wounds uptime somewhat (and PvP, for that matter, although since Rend is becoming good this isn't as bad as it might be).
Unrelenting Assault (-1/2/3s CD on Overpower/Revenge) swapped places with Deep Wounds, which means if you want the debuff you still need a deep Arms warrior.
New ability added to replace Bloodbath;
Enraged Assault (NYI)
75 A furious assault that consumes an Enrage effect on the warrior and attacks with all weapons. Can only be used while Enraged.
15 Rage, 5 yd range, Instant
Enrage effects include Enrage (obviously), but also Berserker Rage and Bloodrage. I like this one, personally, although it's NYI so it's hard to get a feel for how effective it is in normal use.
Now, for my impressions having played earlier today (before these changes went in)...
Titan's Grip is amazingly cool. It also sucks, horribly, in terms of damage output. It is 100% not worth using right now except for grins. Similarly, Heroic Leap is cool-but-useless; the aiming function is awful, it has some... interesting features (requires a target and a path to the target, but does not actually move you _towards_ the target) and is capable of missing stationary targets, which is just dumb. If you use it on a target in water you go all the way to the bottom as well, and at an angle; I had to spirit rez after using it in Howling Fjord since it took me down past the point where I started getting exhaustion.
Haven't tested Arms of Prot yet, was starting to when the servers went down.
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With the changes to recklessness I wonder if 100% really means 100%, or just an increase to Crit chance. Resilience may still reduce its chances on critting still.
RPZip wrote:
Shield Wall, Recklessness and Retaliation all moved to a 5 minute timer, 12s duration. Shield Wall is now 50% instead of 75% and Recklessness now has a limited number of charges (and only effects yellow damage), but uh... Arenas are going to be intriguing.
So shield wall made was more useful in general with a shorter cooldown but less effective.
Reck got buffed even though it only affects yellow dmg now.
Retailiation is still rendered completely useless since it still has the unmistakeable warning sign to tell your opponent to stop attacking you. Though grinding mobs will be more effective.
Got to say the impale/deepwounds changes intrigue me though.
i like the impale/deep wound change too. supposedly the current status of recklessness is that it lasts for three (3) hits....which is just sad. youd think it would be 5 at least, but hopes are its bugged or something, which doesnt seem an unreasonable assumption to me. at least we can finally "pop cooldowns" in arena so to speak.
theres also been some grumbling about shield wall in its current state. a few warriors have compared it to icebound fortitude (which does the same thing as shiell wall, for the same duration, with stun immunity and a one minute cooldown) and, naturally, found shield wall lacking. the counters to this is that DK's have no shield and no defensive stance, so despite the 5x longer cooldown on SW, the flat -10% reduction in damage, plus the additional 50% reduction from SW, warriors still end up "on top" in terms of mitigation. im inclined to agree, as a flat 10% reduction from all incoming damage is pretty sweet, altho only further testing will really tell whether or not that holds up.
other war forum discussions have centered around the outated "stance taxes" we have to deal with in regards to our stances, namely zerker stance and the +10% damage modifier with its anemic +3% crit bonus, and the lack of any value in battle stance aside from access to overpower and charge.
theres also been some grumbling about shield wall in its current state. a few warriors have compared it to icebound fortitude (which does the same thing as shiell wall, for the same duration, with stun immunity and a one minute cooldown) and, naturally, found shield wall lacking. the counters to this is that DK's have no shield and no defensive stance, so despite the 5x longer cooldown on SW, the flat -10% reduction in damage, plus the additional 50% reduction from SW, warriors still end up "on top" in terms of mitigation. im inclined to agree, as a flat 10% reduction from all incoming damage is pretty sweet, altho only further testing will really tell whether or not that holds up.
other war forum discussions have centered around the outated "stance taxes" we have to deal with in regards to our stances, namely zerker stance and the +10% damage modifier with its anemic +3% crit bonus, and the lack of any value in battle stance aside from access to overpower and charge.
While I'm not on beta, this might be worth a shot at testing RP. I'm not arguing the dire state TG is in at the moment, I've been reading that part of the problem with it is just how devastating misses are with the rage spikes/droughts. What I've heard is that it requires a bit more hit than DW fury generally does, to lessen miss streaks. Once a bit more hit is stacked, noticeable differences are apparently seen.
Zerker stance when specced gives 10% ap and 10-20% less threat. Battle stance deep fury will have 10% less threat too. I hate having to spec that deep in a tree to get those bonuses, but I think they are trying to make the 51 point talents attainable through useful talents. Getting to impale for fury means speccing parry and tclap mostly. Which are good for some things, but not from a purely dps standpoint. We've had to do this before to get the 'goodies' out of warriors, I think we'll just suck it up.
I'm excited to see strength on tanking gear, and how it's gonna actually help play a role in TPS.
I'm excited to see strength on tanking gear, and how it's gonna actually help play a role in TPS.
TG is awful. Just trust me on this one. I can explain further if you'd like, but it the math is completely against it and so is the playtime. The one exception is in pure burst, where the higher WW damage compensates for the much lower damage over a sustained fight (i.e. anything over 13-14 seconds).
Reck, Retal and Shield Wall are now all on separate cooldowns, which means Ret has a use now (initial threat burst as a tank, plus in PvP). Reck is now the next 3 special attacks only, which is nice for PvP (think "Ele Shaman KABOOM Bomb") but godawful for PvE. Shield Wall is now strictly inferior to Paladin and Death Knight variants on the same ability, which is... sad. But that's another story.
I'll do more extensive testing after I get back from my vacation, just got to NYC after hitting up Washington DC for a few days.
Reck, Retal and Shield Wall are now all on separate cooldowns, which means Ret has a use now (initial threat burst as a tank, plus in PvP). Reck is now the next 3 special attacks only, which is nice for PvP (think "Ele Shaman KABOOM Bomb") but godawful for PvE. Shield Wall is now strictly inferior to Paladin and Death Knight variants on the same ability, which is... sad. But that's another story.
I'll do more extensive testing after I get back from my vacation, just got to NYC after hitting up Washington DC for a few days.
FletusSanguine wrote:
Once a bit more hit is stacked, noticeable differences are apparently seen.
interesting point, but it will come down to itemization.
dual 2H's with a ton of hit vs. dual 1H's with a ton of str (or dual 1H with a ton of hit, too)
which will be cheaper, hit or str?
for me, the thing is that the ***** grip talent is too 'pretty,' ie, the break-even point might have been 21.2% or 18.4%, but the tooltip has to say 20% in either case.
i am also haunted by the phrase "warriors are fine. get to 70 and get geared."
I did the math on TG, although I left out a few things. I didn't factor in the increased stats, and I only calculated tooltip dps. I compared the S4 swords - the Brutal Gladiator Slicers for the 1H and the Brutal Gladiator Greatswords for the 2H...someone is going to have to let me know if I'm way off my rocker with this math here. It makes sense to me, but it's only accounting for the swords themselves. Basically, I figure out the new speeds for the swords, then calculate the dps based on that speed in the same way the stated dps is calculated: ((Max damage+min damage)/2)/speed. I also assume the talent points in increased offhand damage.
Tooltip dps for the two 1H swords together: 175.3
Tooltip dps for the two 2H swords together at 28% slower: 178.1
Tooltip dps for the two 2H swords together at 22% slower: 186.8
Which means a 1.6% increase in dps at 28% slower and 6.6% increase at 22% slower.
Again, this is disregarding increased stats, the increase in ww damage, and I guess I don't know how AP would affect this. Would it make the difference bigger, or would it stay the same?
Without playing beta, though, I'd have to say I'm a little underwhelmed for something so deep in the tree. Cool, yes, but...I gotta say I trust RP. He's actually played it, his math is probably way better than mine, and I have other reservations. Think about things like badge rewards. I don't know if they'll change how this works, but to get the 2.4 fists, it takes 150 badges. To get two 2H weapons would be 300 badges. Also, according to my math, at 22% slower each weapon is swinging once every 4.4 seconds. I know people have already said it, but geez. Talk about spikey rage generation.
Tooltip dps for the two 1H swords together: 175.3
Tooltip dps for the two 2H swords together at 28% slower: 178.1
Tooltip dps for the two 2H swords together at 22% slower: 186.8
Which means a 1.6% increase in dps at 28% slower and 6.6% increase at 22% slower.
Again, this is disregarding increased stats, the increase in ww damage, and I guess I don't know how AP would affect this. Would it make the difference bigger, or would it stay the same?
Without playing beta, though, I'd have to say I'm a little underwhelmed for something so deep in the tree. Cool, yes, but...I gotta say I trust RP. He's actually played it, his math is probably way better than mine, and I have other reservations. Think about things like badge rewards. I don't know if they'll change how this works, but to get the 2.4 fists, it takes 150 badges. To get two 2H weapons would be 300 badges. Also, according to my math, at 22% slower each weapon is swinging once every 4.4 seconds. I know people have already said it, but geez. Talk about spikey rage generation.
Quote:
i am also haunted by the phrase "warriors are fine. get to 70 and get geared."
as am i. as am i.
"get top 80, get geared and itll be fine. then after that, everyone will ***** and moan about how strong warriors are, and get you nerfed."
mikeyvach wrote:
I did the math on TG, although I left out a few things. I didn't factor in the increased stats, and I only calculated tooltip dps. I compared the S4 swords - the Brutal Gladiator Slicers for the 1H and the Brutal Gladiator Greatswords for the 2H...someone is going to have to let me know if I'm way off my rocker with this math here. It makes sense to me, but it's only accounting for the swords themselves. Basically, I figure out the new speeds for the swords, then calculate the dps based on that speed in the same way the stated dps is calculated: ((Max damage+min damage)/2)/speed. I also assume the talent points in increased offhand damage.
Tooltip dps for the two 1H swords together: 175.3
Tooltip dps for the two 2H swords together at 28% slower: 178.1
Tooltip dps for the two 2H swords together at 22% slower: 186.8
Which means a 1.6% increase in dps at 28% slower and 6.6% increase at 22% slower.
Again, this is disregarding increased stats, the increase in ww damage, and I guess I don't know how AP would affect this. Would it make the difference bigger, or would it stay the same?
Tooltip dps for the two 1H swords together: 175.3
Tooltip dps for the two 2H swords together at 28% slower: 178.1
Tooltip dps for the two 2H swords together at 22% slower: 186.8
Which means a 1.6% increase in dps at 28% slower and 6.6% increase at 22% slower.
Again, this is disregarding increased stats, the increase in ww damage, and I guess I don't know how AP would affect this. Would it make the difference bigger, or would it stay the same?
That's just the problem, leaving out AP derived DPS from your calculation is a little bit of a mistake ;-)... AP derived DPS take a massive hit when you fiddle with attack speed. A much earlier post on this forum suggested a number of around 450 AP ... once you have more AP than that - you start doing less white damage Dual Wielding 2 handers.
SO, while one of the issues is very spikey rage gen, the biggest problem is the general loss of rage generating damage. This means that you'll land up by having warriors stacking hit, just to get rid of spikiness, only to still be losing out simply because you're not doing as much white damage.
I've heard arguments that stacking haste might resolve the issue, but then you need to consider ... how much better off with (let's say) +200 haste will you be while still DW 1-handers ... I would say that while haste may negate some of the 2-hander problems, the same haste will benefit you even more with 2 1-handers, making it still better to go 2 1-handers.
Now, if they changed the whole thing to be a 20% damage penalty instead of a 20% speed penalty ... game on, imho.
RP, I'd be very interested to see what your impressions on Prot was ... specifically with the eye towards soloing - all that extra utility from AP and the Added AOE damage and control abilities in Prot makes me envisage the epitome of a warrior - an unstoppable ball of hurting !
Edited, Aug 12th 2008 11:19am by robertlofthouse
rob is pretty much accurate on this. Leaving out the AP considerations is like leaving out Flurry when you're talking about Warrior's white damage.
The problem is this; at the moment, a 1H does ~77% as much damage as a 2H. This means that if you're using a 2H to attack 20% slower (Speed * 1.2 is the formula used; haste and slow act as inverse effects, so a 20% slow and a 20% haste (4/5 Flurry) combine to no effect) you're getting a minor DPS boost out of the listed damage, about 7.5% over equivalent 1H weapons without factoring in the increased stats.
Great, right? Well, not really. The problem is that as a raid-buffed Fury Warrior I get something around three times more damage on every attack from my AP than from my weapon damage; on a 100 DPS weapon, it's the equivalent of only having 1400 AP. 4200 AP is not terribly high for being fully raid-buffed these days, and it's a good baseline to work with, so we'll just say 'three'. The problem is that Titan's Grip doesn't increase the AP coefficient for autoattacks; it works just like you've been Thunderclapped, which means that each hit uses 100% of the AP at a normal speed instead of 120% AP at the slower speed. This is the same as losing 20% of your AP bonus to autoattacks, which is an enormously large loss.
Using that handy 3-to-1 ratio for where our white damage comes from, we see that using TG gives us a 7.5% boost to the 1 but gives us a 83% coefficient on the AP portion. Using 1H weapons, we get all the way up to 4 if we add the total damage together; using 2H weapons, we get 2.49-to-1.075, or a total of 3.565. We're doing about 88% of the autoattack/Heroic Strike damage we were doing previously, and given that combined that's a huge portion of a Warrior's damage output (think 70%ish) this becomes a rather large issue. The boosted WW damage doesn't even come close to compensating for the loss.
More to the point, there are significant Rage issues with TG even with quite a large amount of hit. Since it comes so slowly if Flurry drops off there's a rather high chance you won't be getting enough Rage to use BT or WW anytime soon; more to the point, because the hits are so slow you need to ride pretty close to the top of the rage meter as a safety factor, which means that you waste quite a lot of rage when you do connect and you will be doing massively fewer Heroic Strikes.
It's a cool but completely broken talent right now. The proper solution is to remove the attack speed penalty and just make the 2Hers do about 80% base damage, keeping the AP coefficient the same. As of now it's completely worthless.
EDIT: Prot isn't that easy to evaluate at the moment because if I go prot I end up... pretty rage starved. Shockwave is cool but doesn't produce nearly enough threat at the moment.
Edited, Aug 12th 2008 2:06pm by RPZip
The problem is this; at the moment, a 1H does ~77% as much damage as a 2H. This means that if you're using a 2H to attack 20% slower (Speed * 1.2 is the formula used; haste and slow act as inverse effects, so a 20% slow and a 20% haste (4/5 Flurry) combine to no effect) you're getting a minor DPS boost out of the listed damage, about 7.5% over equivalent 1H weapons without factoring in the increased stats.
Great, right? Well, not really. The problem is that as a raid-buffed Fury Warrior I get something around three times more damage on every attack from my AP than from my weapon damage; on a 100 DPS weapon, it's the equivalent of only having 1400 AP. 4200 AP is not terribly high for being fully raid-buffed these days, and it's a good baseline to work with, so we'll just say 'three'. The problem is that Titan's Grip doesn't increase the AP coefficient for autoattacks; it works just like you've been Thunderclapped, which means that each hit uses 100% of the AP at a normal speed instead of 120% AP at the slower speed. This is the same as losing 20% of your AP bonus to autoattacks, which is an enormously large loss.
Using that handy 3-to-1 ratio for where our white damage comes from, we see that using TG gives us a 7.5% boost to the 1 but gives us a 83% coefficient on the AP portion. Using 1H weapons, we get all the way up to 4 if we add the total damage together; using 2H weapons, we get 2.49-to-1.075, or a total of 3.565. We're doing about 88% of the autoattack/Heroic Strike damage we were doing previously, and given that combined that's a huge portion of a Warrior's damage output (think 70%ish) this becomes a rather large issue. The boosted WW damage doesn't even come close to compensating for the loss.
More to the point, there are significant Rage issues with TG even with quite a large amount of hit. Since it comes so slowly if Flurry drops off there's a rather high chance you won't be getting enough Rage to use BT or WW anytime soon; more to the point, because the hits are so slow you need to ride pretty close to the top of the rage meter as a safety factor, which means that you waste quite a lot of rage when you do connect and you will be doing massively fewer Heroic Strikes.
It's a cool but completely broken talent right now. The proper solution is to remove the attack speed penalty and just make the 2Hers do about 80% base damage, keeping the AP coefficient the same. As of now it's completely worthless.
EDIT: Prot isn't that easy to evaluate at the moment because if I go prot I end up... pretty rage starved. Shockwave is cool but doesn't produce nearly enough threat at the moment.
Edited, Aug 12th 2008 2:06pm by RPZip
have you tried using your pvp gear or other high str gear instead of your normal "tank" set RP? ive read a number of personal accounts on the war forums stating how shockwave is worse than lackluster in a tank set, but in a high str setup, it suddenly becomes pretty damn good. the only consistent complaint ive seen about shockwave is that the cone size is a bit small, necessitating some fancy legwork to get it to hit more than two mobs reliably.
RPZip wrote:
The problem is this; at the moment, a 1H does ~77% as much damage as a 2H. This means that if you're using a 2H to attack 20% slower (Speed * 1.2 is the formula used; haste and slow act as inverse effects, so a 20% slow and a 20% haste (4/5 Flurry) combine to no effect) you're getting a minor DPS boost out of the listed damage, about 7.5% over equivalent 1H weapons without factoring in the increased stats.
Great, right? Well, not really. The problem is that as a raid-buffed Fury Warrior I get something around three times more damage on every attack from my AP than from my weapon damage; on a 100 DPS weapon, it's the equivalent of only having 1400 AP. 4200 AP is not terribly high for being fully raid-buffed these days, and it's a good baseline to work with, so we'll just say 'three'. The problem is that Titan's Grip doesn't increase the AP coefficient for autoattacks; it works just like you've been Thunderclapped, which means that each hit uses 100% of the AP at a normal speed instead of 120% AP at the slower speed. This is the same as losing 20% of your AP bonus to autoattacks, which is an enormously large loss.
Using that handy 3-to-1 ratio for where our white damage comes from, we see that using TG gives us a 7.5% boost to the 1 but gives us a 83% coefficient on the AP portion. Using 1H weapons, we get all the way up to 4 if we add the total damage together; using 2H weapons, we get 2.49-to-1.075, or a total of 3.565. We're doing about 88% of the autoattack/Heroic Strike damage we were doing previously, and given that combined that's a huge portion of a Warrior's damage output (think 70%ish) this becomes a rather large issue. The boosted WW damage doesn't even come close to compensating for the loss.
More to the point, there are significant Rage issues with TG even with quite a large amount of hit. Since it comes so slowly if Flurry drops off there's a rather high chance you won't be getting enough Rage to use BT or WW anytime soon; more to the point, because the hits are so slow you need to ride pretty close to the top of the rage meter as a safety factor, which means that you waste quite a lot of rage when you do connect and you will be doing massively fewer Heroic Strikes.
It's a cool but completely broken talent right now. The proper solution is to remove the attack speed penalty and just make the 2Hers do about 80% base damage, keeping the AP coefficient the same. As of now it's completely worthless.
EDIT: Prot isn't that easy to evaluate at the moment because if I go prot I end up... pretty rage starved. Shockwave is cool but doesn't produce nearly enough threat at the moment.
Edited, Aug 12th 2008 2:06pm by RPZip
That response, my friends, is why I LOVE the Alla boards ... I have 3 70's - Warrior, Rogue, Mage - and on each of those boards, there are resident experts who are essentially your one-stop go-to people wrt getting your questions (any question) answered. We're lucky in that the go-to person on the Rogue and Warrior board is pretty much the same person ;-)
The EJ boards are probably the ultimate source - but it's sometimes a little tough to follow those guys (propeller-heads extreme ;->)
Anyway, back to the topic on hand ;-)
I agree with Quor (not by experience, but by theorising) ... I have some pretty ok DPS gear (1900 AP, 31% crit) ... and was quite interested to see how the new focus on AP in the prot tree would allow a prot spec warrior from solo'ing in pure DPS gear.
A bit disappointed regarding reports of the "Cone" of shockwave - seems a bit like the cone problem with Dragon's Breath - making it a very situational 41 pt talent for a mage nowadays ... let's hope they fix it.
5 posts
Most people seem to be concentrating on the DPS aspects of the change but is it just me or does the change make Shield Wall more or less useless fro PVE raiding. Now it was never used much but it was a great panic button for when thing went wrong, greatly reducing all forms of damage and giving your healers a chance.
I would have thought to most raiders 50% melee damage reduction would make no difference due to their high armour (Unless its another 50% but I though it was total) and 50% magic damage reduction is not enough.
Please feel free to correct me if I’m wrong (I like to learn) but it looks to me like another Big warrior tank nerf.
Rhoall
I would have thought to most raiders 50% melee damage reduction would make no difference due to their high armour (Unless its another 50% but I though it was total) and 50% magic damage reduction is not enough.
Please feel free to correct me if I’m wrong (I like to learn) but it looks to me like another Big warrior tank nerf.
Rhoall
Untalented Shield Wall only lasted 10 seconds as well, so the current incarnation does last 20% longer than previously. While it's a nerf to how effective it is when used, it's also something you can use a lot more. Shield Wall is probably the best change of the set; so is Retaliation, since you can actually use it now (no shared CD) even if it's still mediocre.
Retaliation for threat, that's what I'm using it for.
Edited, Aug 14th 2008 12:45pm by devioususer
Edited, Aug 14th 2008 12:45pm by devioususer
5 posts
PRZip
Thanks for the input, I agree it can be used a lot more. However, the point I was trying to make (Badly, sorry) is why would you need to use it lots? I can count on the fingers of one hand how often it has been needed on trash Mobs (Not talking Pugs here but guild raiding) and, situation wise, it would be rare to use twice on boss fights. Maybe I’ll get a beta invite and can try it out myself :)
Devioususer, lol that’s a use I had not considered and may even work well in 5 and 10 mans.
Thanks for the input, I agree it can be used a lot more. However, the point I was trying to make (Badly, sorry) is why would you need to use it lots? I can count on the fingers of one hand how often it has been needed on trash Mobs (Not talking Pugs here but guild raiding) and, situation wise, it would be rare to use twice on boss fights. Maybe I’ll get a beta invite and can try it out myself :)
Devioususer, lol that’s a use I had not considered and may even work well in 5 and 10 mans.
-REDACTED-
Scholar
1,339 posts
A few Prot changes that may have been skipped that people probably wouldn't have reported.
Obviously, anyone trying to keep track of Shield Block knows that it was fundamentally changed. It's now a tool to use, and not an absolutely must-have-or-boss-will-kill-me anymore since crushing blows have been altered in the expansion. (Unless they removed them completely, a while back a Blizzard employee informed me they're merely changing it so that a monster will need to be 4 levels above you to crush instead of 3, as to reduce the amount of "unwelcome" randomness in endgame encounters. For all I know, as he's busy all the time due to beta testing going on, they may have just scrapped them completely but I doubt it).
Secondly, Shield Block was changed so that it's now a 100% chance to block. This is neither a nerf or change for Protection Warriors due to the fact that if you're aiming to endgame tank, you're crush immune anyway due to having more than enough combined M/D/P/B after you've obtained enough defense to push crits off the combat table.
Next, Shield Block doubles your block value. The tooltip states that it is only for one attack, and that may or may not changed. What this does, is allows you to time a major spike in threat with Shield Block + Shield Slam. Right now, Shield Block will only apply the double block effect for one attack, however the increase to chance to block is remaining for the full duration of the buff. If this change stays, then Shield Block becomes even more of a timed, useful tool for rough patches of damage you know are coming in a boss's attack cycle.
Also, in case it is new to some people, the block value formula convert ratio was changed in WotLK. It's now 2 STR = 1 BV, so you may see a small increase (determined by your gear) when the expansion goes live.
No, we have not seen block value on any tanking pieces of equipment in the expansion aside from the innate block of shields, but I would not expect to. Blizzard wants to homogenize gear so that it is equally useful to all three plate tanking classes, and as most of the tanking gear is either crafted or boss drops (or quest rewards) this follows that trend. We may, or may not, see block value modifiers on our tier gear; only time will tell.
Lastly, the defense rating + block value % meta gem has been nerfed. It's only 5%, to match the new meta in the expansion.
Edited, Aug 20th 2008 8:07pm by StrijderVechter
Obviously, anyone trying to keep track of Shield Block knows that it was fundamentally changed. It's now a tool to use, and not an absolutely must-have-or-boss-will-kill-me anymore since crushing blows have been altered in the expansion. (Unless they removed them completely, a while back a Blizzard employee informed me they're merely changing it so that a monster will need to be 4 levels above you to crush instead of 3, as to reduce the amount of "unwelcome" randomness in endgame encounters. For all I know, as he's busy all the time due to beta testing going on, they may have just scrapped them completely but I doubt it).
Secondly, Shield Block was changed so that it's now a 100% chance to block. This is neither a nerf or change for Protection Warriors due to the fact that if you're aiming to endgame tank, you're crush immune anyway due to having more than enough combined M/D/P/B after you've obtained enough defense to push crits off the combat table.
Next, Shield Block doubles your block value. The tooltip states that it is only for one attack, and that may or may not changed. What this does, is allows you to time a major spike in threat with Shield Block + Shield Slam. Right now, Shield Block will only apply the double block effect for one attack, however the increase to chance to block is remaining for the full duration of the buff. If this change stays, then Shield Block becomes even more of a timed, useful tool for rough patches of damage you know are coming in a boss's attack cycle.
Also, in case it is new to some people, the block value formula convert ratio was changed in WotLK. It's now 2 STR = 1 BV, so you may see a small increase (determined by your gear) when the expansion goes live.
No, we have not seen block value on any tanking pieces of equipment in the expansion aside from the innate block of shields, but I would not expect to. Blizzard wants to homogenize gear so that it is equally useful to all three plate tanking classes, and as most of the tanking gear is either crafted or boss drops (or quest rewards) this follows that trend. We may, or may not, see block value modifiers on our tier gear; only time will tell.
Lastly, the defense rating + block value % meta gem has been nerfed. It's only 5%, to match the new meta in the expansion.
Edited, Aug 20th 2008 8:07pm by StrijderVechter
Arms
* Thunderclap cooldown increased from 4 seconds to 6 seconds.
Protection
* Shield Wall damage reduction increased from 50% to 60%.
* Shield Block now Increases your chance to block and block value by 100% for 5 sec. Cooldown changed from 30 seconds to 1 minute.
Talents
Arms
* Bladestorm now lasts 6 seconds instead of 4.5 seconds.
* Strength of Arms moved from tier 10 to tier 8. Changed to a 2 point talent and now increases your total strength and total health by 2/4% (was 1/2/3/4/5%)
* New talent - Wrecking Crew (Tier 10) - Your melee critical hits have a 20/40/60/80/100% chance to Enrage you, increasing all damage caused by 3% for 12 sec.
* Blood Frenzy now makes your Rend and Deep Wounds abilities also increase all physical damage caused to that target by 1/2%. (was 2/4/%)
* New talent - Bull rush (Tier 9) - Increases the duration of the Stun effect of your Charge and Intercept abilities by 0.4/0.7/1 seconds.
* Improved Mortal Strike now increases the damage caused by your Mortal Strike ability by 2/4/6/8/10% and gives your Enraged Assault ability a 6/12/18/24/30% chance to refresh the cooldown of Mortal Strike.
* Trauma has been moved from tier 8 to tier 9.
* Unrelenting assault now reduces the cooldown of your Overpower and Revenge by 2/4 seconds. (was 1/2 seconds)
* Mace specialization changed, it now gives your melee attacks a chance to generate 10 rage when using a Mace.
* Improved charge now increases the amount of rage generated by your charge ability by 5/10 (was 3/6).
* Bloodletting has been renamed to Improved Rend once again, and doesn't affect Bloodbath anymore.
* Improved Slam (Tier 7) has been moved to the Arms tree.
* New talent - Taste for Blood (Tier 4) - Whenever your Rend ability causes damage, you have a 10/20/30% chance of allowing the use of your Overpower ability for 5 secs.
* New talent - Justified Killing (Tier 4) - You gain 6 rage every time you parry an attack.
Fury
* Heroic Leap moved from Tier 11 to Tier 9.
* Titan's Grip moved from Tier 10 to Tier 11. It is now 1 rank and Allows you to equip two-handed axes, maces and swords in one hand. No speed penalty anymore.
* Furious Resolve (Tier 9) removed.
* New Talent - Furious Attacks (Tier 8 ) - Your normal melee attacks have a 50/100% chance to reduce all healing done to the target by 25% for 8 sec. This can stack up to 2 times.
* Rampage (Tier 9) completely changed: Your melee critical hits cause you to go on a rampage, increasing melee critical hit chance of all party and raid members within 20 yds by 5%. Lasts 10 sec.
* Intensify Rage moved to Tier 5 and completely changed: Reduces the cooldown of your Bloodrage, Berserker Rage, Recklessness and Deathwish abilities by 11/22/33%.
* Improved Slam (Tier 5) Moved to arms.
* Death Wish is (Tier 5) now flagged as an Enrage.
* Enrage (Tier 4) now gives you 3/6/9/12/15% increased damage after being the victim of a critical strike. It now works on all attacks for 12 sec. (Previously 5/10/15/20/25% and lasted for 12 swings)
* New talent - Unending Fury (Tier 10) - Reduces the rage cost of your Cleave, Whirlwind and Bloodthirst abilities by 1 and gives your Enraged Assault ability a 6/12/18/24/30% chance to refresh the cooldown of Bloodthirst.
Protection
* Stalwart Protector (Tier 8 ) has been removed.
* Shield Mastery (Tier 6) Changed to increase block value by 10/20/30%.
* Improved Sunder Armor (Tier 4) renamed to Puncture.
* Improved Shield Block (Tier 3) Reduces the cooldown of Shield Block by 10/20 sec. (Previously 5/10 sec)
These are overall some fantastic changes, although I want to see how Arms plays (currently the tree is bloated and I'm not sure how effective some of the new talents will be).
* Thunderclap cooldown increased from 4 seconds to 6 seconds.
Protection
* Shield Wall damage reduction increased from 50% to 60%.
* Shield Block now Increases your chance to block and block value by 100% for 5 sec. Cooldown changed from 30 seconds to 1 minute.
Talents
Arms
* Bladestorm now lasts 6 seconds instead of 4.5 seconds.
* Strength of Arms moved from tier 10 to tier 8. Changed to a 2 point talent and now increases your total strength and total health by 2/4% (was 1/2/3/4/5%)
* New talent - Wrecking Crew (Tier 10) - Your melee critical hits have a 20/40/60/80/100% chance to Enrage you, increasing all damage caused by 3% for 12 sec.
* Blood Frenzy now makes your Rend and Deep Wounds abilities also increase all physical damage caused to that target by 1/2%. (was 2/4/%)
* New talent - Bull rush (Tier 9) - Increases the duration of the Stun effect of your Charge and Intercept abilities by 0.4/0.7/1 seconds.
* Improved Mortal Strike now increases the damage caused by your Mortal Strike ability by 2/4/6/8/10% and gives your Enraged Assault ability a 6/12/18/24/30% chance to refresh the cooldown of Mortal Strike.
* Trauma has been moved from tier 8 to tier 9.
* Unrelenting assault now reduces the cooldown of your Overpower and Revenge by 2/4 seconds. (was 1/2 seconds)
* Mace specialization changed, it now gives your melee attacks a chance to generate 10 rage when using a Mace.
* Improved charge now increases the amount of rage generated by your charge ability by 5/10 (was 3/6).
* Bloodletting has been renamed to Improved Rend once again, and doesn't affect Bloodbath anymore.
* Improved Slam (Tier 7) has been moved to the Arms tree.
* New talent - Taste for Blood (Tier 4) - Whenever your Rend ability causes damage, you have a 10/20/30% chance of allowing the use of your Overpower ability for 5 secs.
* New talent - Justified Killing (Tier 4) - You gain 6 rage every time you parry an attack.
Fury
* Heroic Leap moved from Tier 11 to Tier 9.
* Titan's Grip moved from Tier 10 to Tier 11. It is now 1 rank and Allows you to equip two-handed axes, maces and swords in one hand. No speed penalty anymore.
* Furious Resolve (Tier 9) removed.
* New Talent - Furious Attacks (Tier 8 ) - Your normal melee attacks have a 50/100% chance to reduce all healing done to the target by 25% for 8 sec. This can stack up to 2 times.
* Rampage (Tier 9) completely changed: Your melee critical hits cause you to go on a rampage, increasing melee critical hit chance of all party and raid members within 20 yds by 5%. Lasts 10 sec.
* Intensify Rage moved to Tier 5 and completely changed: Reduces the cooldown of your Bloodrage, Berserker Rage, Recklessness and Deathwish abilities by 11/22/33%.
* Improved Slam (Tier 5) Moved to arms.
* Death Wish is (Tier 5) now flagged as an Enrage.
* Enrage (Tier 4) now gives you 3/6/9/12/15% increased damage after being the victim of a critical strike. It now works on all attacks for 12 sec. (Previously 5/10/15/20/25% and lasted for 12 swings)
* New talent - Unending Fury (Tier 10) - Reduces the rage cost of your Cleave, Whirlwind and Bloodthirst abilities by 1 and gives your Enraged Assault ability a 6/12/18/24/30% chance to refresh the cooldown of Bloodthirst.
Protection
* Stalwart Protector (Tier 8 ) has been removed.
* Shield Mastery (Tier 6) Changed to increase block value by 10/20/30%.
* Improved Sunder Armor (Tier 4) renamed to Puncture.
* Improved Shield Block (Tier 3) Reduces the cooldown of Shield Block by 10/20 sec. (Previously 5/10 sec)
These are overall some fantastic changes, although I want to see how Arms plays (currently the tree is bloated and I'm not sure how effective some of the new talents will be).
My overall initial impression (I'll ignore the nerfs ... focus on the positive ;->)
1) Titan's Grip ... what can I say .. OMG ... better than I think any of us could have hoped for .. very very worthy 51 pt talent
2) Bladestorm 6 seconds duration ... assuming an extra whirlwind .. it can only be better.
3) Wrecking Crew ... OMG ... with a decent crit rate (or even no so decent), you're guarenteeing 3% extra damage across the board ... not shabby at all
4) Hmmm, the one nerf that DOES stand out is the removal of stun from maces ... rogues get hit by the same bat .. interesting development (again, there are other nerfs, but I'm acting like an ostrich here - putting my head in the sand and pretending they're not there)
5) And by far one of the most surprising additions to Fury is Furious attacks ... welcome back the PvP fury warrior ;-D
1) Titan's Grip ... what can I say .. OMG ... better than I think any of us could have hoped for .. very very worthy 51 pt talent
2) Bladestorm 6 seconds duration ... assuming an extra whirlwind .. it can only be better.
3) Wrecking Crew ... OMG ... with a decent crit rate (or even no so decent), you're guarenteeing 3% extra damage across the board ... not shabby at all
4) Hmmm, the one nerf that DOES stand out is the removal of stun from maces ... rogues get hit by the same bat .. interesting development (again, there are other nerfs, but I'm acting like an ostrich here - putting my head in the sand and pretending they're not there)
5) And by far one of the most surprising additions to Fury is Furious attacks ... welcome back the PvP fury warrior ;-D
Wrecking Crew is actually 3/6/9/12/15% damage. It's insanely good.
RPZip wrote:
Wrecking Crew is actually 3/6/9/12/15% damage. It's insanely good.
O.o ... yup - just noticed that browsing the talents on MMO-Champion ... better than expected.
There seriously seems to be a Glut of options for both PvE and PvP viability in both trees (Arms and Fury) ... So, you'll be finding warriors speccing to their preferred play style (2 hander or DW) instead of being forced into a spec for a specific role.
I have a funny feeling that TG could remain as is into Live ... given that a 2 hander generally has around 25% more dps than the equivalent iLvl 1 hander ... which is properly offset by the extra 15% damage provided by wrecking crew in arms .. taking into consideration the DW miss rate.
It seems (most likely due to my gullibility) that some decent thought has gone into balancing the trees.
Ofc, this seriously screws with my plans to level my warrior arms from 70 to 80 ... I'm going to have to rethink that now ... (I gave up on the prot idea ... what WAS I thinking) ;-)
Let me totally redo this post, I totally messed that up.
12 points in arms gives Impale now. Feels good to me. But then I saw that you can spec 5 in 2h spec and have titans grip. So a 20/51 looks good to me at this point in time. I'm sure they will change things AGAIN...
Edited, Aug 22nd 2008 1:08pm by devioususer
12 points in arms gives Impale now. Feels good to me. But then I saw that you can spec 5 in 2h spec and have titans grip. So a 20/51 looks good to me at this point in time. I'm sure they will change things AGAIN...
Edited, Aug 22nd 2008 1:08pm by devioususer
My current planned raiding build is 20/51/0, yeah. They need to change Unending Rage though, at the moment it's pretty bad.
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