Hey, Ive decided to roll an alt but I am having trouble choosing classes. Im waffleing between An enhance shammy Or Ret pally, But I was wondering if both of those hold up dps wise in endgame (and a bit pvp)
Thanks
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Both of these options are "hybrids" and will certainly not outdamage a rogue or mage. As far as damage output at endgame, both are "decent", and both have extra goodies to bring to the table for the rest of the raid party, so it is pretty much up to you.
There is still some stigma against Ret Paladins at endgame (and each raid group really only needs one Ret Paladin), but I like them.
Maybe try one of each up to a reasonable level and see which you like better personally.
There is still some stigma against Ret Paladins at endgame (and each raid group really only needs one Ret Paladin), but I like them.
Maybe try one of each up to a reasonable level and see which you like better personally.
Enhance out the box at 70 should get at least 800-900 dps.
a Ret Pally just hitting 70, will frequently get 400 dps. maybe worse.
if i had to do it again with what i know now, i would have gone enhance for pve. however, my Ret pally is realy fun in pvp so its a toss up. i dont know how a enhance is in pvp, but i survive alot more then i should as ret and when things proc/crit, it freakin stings.
Edit: however, the DPS handicap that Ret has may very well be fixed for the expac. and so far looks promissing. and shamans WF is being changed to a flat 20% haste and raid wide. they will have a slightly lower raid utility also. for wotlk, it look kinda even.
Edited, Aug 8th 2008 12:38pm by RuenBahamut
a Ret Pally just hitting 70, will frequently get 400 dps. maybe worse.
if i had to do it again with what i know now, i would have gone enhance for pve. however, my Ret pally is realy fun in pvp so its a toss up. i dont know how a enhance is in pvp, but i survive alot more then i should as ret and when things proc/crit, it freakin stings.
Edit: however, the DPS handicap that Ret has may very well be fixed for the expac. and so far looks promissing. and shamans WF is being changed to a flat 20% haste and raid wide. they will have a slightly lower raid utility also. for wotlk, it look kinda even.
Edited, Aug 8th 2008 12:38pm by RuenBahamut
Once WotLK comes out ret pallys will be highly beneficial to a raid. With retribution aura on you will grant the entire raid party 3% haste and 2% damage increase. So you alone will have a substantial effect on the total damage output of the entire raid or party.
36 posts
this is really helping in my decision ty for all of your help :)
Ret paladins are already highly benificial to a raid, so i'm looking foward to all these WotLK buffs. Even if you already have a holy paladin as healer, overlapping buffs is a great boon. Kings AND Might/Wisdom/Salve etc etc. Two ret paladins in a raid however.....well, personal dps is lower than most other dps classes.
It's been said before, being a retribution paladin in endgame raiding means looking beyond the damage charts and seeing what it is you can do that a sustained high damage class can't. Take pressure off the healers by throwing clutch cleanses for fears and debuffs, BoP anyone who grabs aggro, throws stuns and repents on that mob that got away or makes a beeline for someone fragile.
Personal experience: My guild haven't got beyond farming Kara and exploring ZA, i uniformly come 3rd on dps behind our rogue and hunter. I've been doing daily heroic PUGs for some badge gear though (for the last week and a half), and haven't been outdpsed ONCE. Maybe because i have a Primal mooncloth bag full of sharpening stones, food buffs, mana pots and i read up on strats before doing something new. So it's the same old useless answer i'm afraid: play what you enjoy! Raids will always want paladins and shamans along for the ride as dps, the utility and buffs are just too sexy.
Edited, Aug 8th 2008 10:46pm by ArtemisEnteri
It's been said before, being a retribution paladin in endgame raiding means looking beyond the damage charts and seeing what it is you can do that a sustained high damage class can't. Take pressure off the healers by throwing clutch cleanses for fears and debuffs, BoP anyone who grabs aggro, throws stuns and repents on that mob that got away or makes a beeline for someone fragile.
Personal experience: My guild haven't got beyond farming Kara and exploring ZA, i uniformly come 3rd on dps behind our rogue and hunter. I've been doing daily heroic PUGs for some badge gear though (for the last week and a half), and haven't been outdpsed ONCE. Maybe because i have a Primal mooncloth bag full of sharpening stones, food buffs, mana pots and i read up on strats before doing something new. So it's the same old useless answer i'm afraid: play what you enjoy! Raids will always want paladins and shamans along for the ride as dps, the utility and buffs are just too sexy.
Edited, Aug 8th 2008 10:46pm by ArtemisEnteri
The RuenBahamut of Doom wrote:
Enhance out the box at 70 should get at least 800-900 dps.
a Ret Pally just hitting 70, will frequently get 400 dps. maybe worse.
if i had to do it again with what i know now, i would have gone enhance for pve. however, my Ret pally is realy fun in pvp so its a toss up. i dont know how a enhance is in pvp, but i survive alot more then i should as ret and when things proc/crit, it freakin stings.
Edit: however, the DPS handicap that Ret has may very well be fixed for the expac. and so far looks promissing. and shamans WF is being changed to a flat 20% haste and raid wide. they will have a slightly lower raid utility also. for wotlk, it look kinda even.
Edited, Aug 8th 2008 12:38pm by RuenBahamut
a Ret Pally just hitting 70, will frequently get 400 dps. maybe worse.
if i had to do it again with what i know now, i would have gone enhance for pve. however, my Ret pally is realy fun in pvp so its a toss up. i dont know how a enhance is in pvp, but i survive alot more then i should as ret and when things proc/crit, it freakin stings.
Edit: however, the DPS handicap that Ret has may very well be fixed for the expac. and so far looks promissing. and shamans WF is being changed to a flat 20% haste and raid wide. they will have a slightly lower raid utility also. for wotlk, it look kinda even.
Edited, Aug 8th 2008 12:38pm by RuenBahamut
I think your numbers are a bit off. Most dps in kara is doing 500-700 base. I dont see an enhancement shaman doing 800 fresh out of the box.
it should also be said and emphasized that ret pallies are still looked down on somewhat until you get some really epic gear either from doing a ton of raids, badge gear or some of the nice arena/pvp loot.
I leveled as a ret pally and while the first 50 levels or so were nice, getting close to outlands lots of people either wanted you to tank or heal, so until WOTLK comes out and ret pallies start to shine, be prepared to be replaced in at least a few 5 man instances
I leveled as a ret pally and while the first 50 levels or so were nice, getting close to outlands lots of people either wanted you to tank or heal, so until WOTLK comes out and ret pallies start to shine, be prepared to be replaced in at least a few 5 man instances
On the subject, I levelled my Paladin as Prot through Outlands and found it no problem at all, could easily take 5/6 melee mobs at the same time. You can tank or heal instances for awhile to build up your Ret gear, but don't expect to be let into 5mans as DPS until you have some very solid gear to back it up.
Retadins scale very well with gear, but the flipside is they are extremely gear-dependent. A Mage or Warlock can always do solid DPS just by expending more mana, Paladins are limited by cooldowns so you'll need a healthy gear pool. I'd take a guess that 1-1.2k AP will be enough to secure you a group spot in lvl70 5man, and 1.4k+ should see you into some friendly Karazhan raids.
Retadins scale very well with gear, but the flipside is they are extremely gear-dependent. A Mage or Warlock can always do solid DPS just by expending more mana, Paladins are limited by cooldowns so you'll need a healthy gear pool. I'd take a guess that 1-1.2k AP will be enough to secure you a group spot in lvl70 5man, and 1.4k+ should see you into some friendly Karazhan raids.
Yeah, I just pinged 70, and so far I've out dps'd both enhance shamans I've grouped with...so meh. Plus with off heals and divine intervention, I can often prevent a wipe. So, so sick of anti retributinism.
I love to surprised some of the seasoned raiders on my server with what my pally can do with ret, I`m full merc gear at the moment, and I keep my dps at 600 - 750 steady, without pulling aggro, so if you guys/ gals wanna ret it up, go for it. I always hate it when someone has that anti-ret attitude, but I do like it when its the end of the run and I have left them in the dust or you get that whisper... "wow... I`m surprised, I never knew ret pallies could do so well" Makes me smile.
People that say we need to wait for the expansion to have some real tools, I think thats not all true, although the expansion has some sweet new tools for all pallies, so will every other class.
People that say we need to wait for the expansion to have some real tools, I think thats not all true, although the expansion has some sweet new tools for all pallies, so will every other class.
#12REDACTED,
Posted: Aug 16 2008 at 3:09 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) heroic epics, and t4 equivalent gear and i was putting out 850 dps. you just cant be an idiot
I think most raids would prefer the shammy over ret paladin because of the totems (melee groups love the windfury!).
Ret DPS can be on the low end until you are geared pretty well, and although they do have some nice features (keeping 3 judgements on a boss the whole fight, an extra blessing and an extra DI), I don't think I have ever been on a run through and instance or raid where people have said 'you know, a retridin would really help out here........'
Not saying don't choose a retridin but as things are atm, prepare for alot of disappointment as people turn you down for runs. I have t6 level gear for my retriset but because I can also tank or healer it is incredibly rare that I get to go DPS which is a shame cause it's alot of fun :D
Edited, Aug 28th 2008 3:02pm by Chamual
Ret DPS can be on the low end until you are geared pretty well, and although they do have some nice features (keeping 3 judgements on a boss the whole fight, an extra blessing and an extra DI), I don't think I have ever been on a run through and instance or raid where people have said 'you know, a retridin would really help out here........'
Not saying don't choose a retridin but as things are atm, prepare for alot of disappointment as people turn you down for runs. I have t6 level gear for my retriset but because I can also tank or healer it is incredibly rare that I get to go DPS which is a shame cause it's alot of fun :D
Edited, Aug 28th 2008 3:02pm by Chamual
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