I raid ssc / tk atm and like a mindless machine i respecced 0-21-40 once we started doing 25 mans and no just curse and spam for 3 hours its sweet. But then i started having a look at the bottom end on the demonology tree, the pvp end if you will. And i noticed this.
http://www.wow-europe.com/en/info/basics/talents/warlock/talents.html?tal=0000000000000000000002050031133250100501350505000512200010000000
With this build i am gain 2% more crit, a lot more spell damage. And i can't really see where the "standard build" wins over this one. Heres my logic (and my understanding of WoW maths......ok maths in general is terrible) . Sacrificing succy gives you 15% more dmg, but with this new build having succy out and about gives you +10% more dmg...then with soul link you get 5% more dmg. And you gain a fair amount of spell damage as wel from her stam / intellect. If someone can disprove me or say why i am an idiot that wud save me the approaching 50g respec. If not keep your eye out here because i am going to be doing a Dr. Boom DPS test with current spec and this new spec and tell you how it goes.
- Forums
- World of Warcraft
- Class Discussion
- 0-40-21 over 0-21-40
0-40-21 over 0-21-40Follow
I worked with a build similar to this for a while, doing 5-mans and raids, granted I was not as far as you are.
I found that the main downside with this strategy is that it's a pain in the butt when the pet dies. Sure you can quick-summon another one, but that doesn't work well at all when your in the middle of a battle that includes a lot of AEing.
Not having to worry about the pet makes the difference for me, however there are a lot of options if you're willing to work with it. Telling Succy to "stay" out of range of AEs while you fight in between her and the boss works (usually.) You just need to make sure she comes with.
In wierd situations, this build also adds the option of having an Imp out to give 20% TR, 10% TR from Destructive Reach, and a potential 20% more from Salvation. A pretty handy amount of Threat Redux.
In the end, though, I think most people will appreciate the fact that they don't need to baby sit their pet at all. T5 gear will definatly help with this aspect of the 0/40/21 spec, and in the end the bonuses make a unique alternative to the standard 0/21/40 build. I personally think Destructive Tree still boosts Fire too much, and until WotLK comes out Fire isn't much of an option for us.
I found that the main downside with this strategy is that it's a pain in the butt when the pet dies. Sure you can quick-summon another one, but that doesn't work well at all when your in the middle of a battle that includes a lot of AEing.
Not having to worry about the pet makes the difference for me, however there are a lot of options if you're willing to work with it. Telling Succy to "stay" out of range of AEs while you fight in between her and the boss works (usually.) You just need to make sure she comes with.
In wierd situations, this build also adds the option of having an Imp out to give 20% TR, 10% TR from Destructive Reach, and a potential 20% more from Salvation. A pretty handy amount of Threat Redux.
In the end, though, I think most people will appreciate the fact that they don't need to baby sit their pet at all. T5 gear will definatly help with this aspect of the 0/40/21 spec, and in the end the bonuses make a unique alternative to the standard 0/21/40 build. I personally think Destructive Tree still boosts Fire too much, and until WotLK comes out Fire isn't much of an option for us.
why is it not better?
1. the increased spell damage may add up to 20% or more of your spell damage at a VERY low gear level, but beyond that it doesn't, in which case the 'Shadow and Flame' talent beats the increased spell damage in terms of the damage increase provided to your main nuke spell.
2. there aren't many bosses where you can have your succubus both out AND soul-linked (let alone being able to send her in to dps... LOL), if you can't achieve both of these then you can't match the 15% bonus damage from sacrificing her instead
3. that bonus 2% crit doesn't even come close to making up to the flaws listed in 1 and 2.
this is why 0/40/21 doesn't match up to 0/21/40. heck I personnaly believe a good afliction lock (be it a 41/x/x or 40/0/21) would do more damage than a 0/40/21 simply because their 'full potential' (soul-linked sucubus who attacks) just simply ins't achievable against almost all bosses.
If you're gonna go that deep into demo for raiding, you NEED the felguard as it's the only pet we have (currently) that is capable of surviving boss aoe AND even be soul-linked on the odd occasion... also it deals the best dps out of the lot of them. so a x/41/xx build would do more damage.
I've almost matched my destruction dps as felguard spec on a number of occasions, so i know from experience that the spec does work, and arguably is the 2nd best raiding spec we have for damage post gruul/mag.
Edited, Aug 7th 2008 10:45pm by Jenovaomega
1. the increased spell damage may add up to 20% or more of your spell damage at a VERY low gear level, but beyond that it doesn't, in which case the 'Shadow and Flame' talent beats the increased spell damage in terms of the damage increase provided to your main nuke spell.
2. there aren't many bosses where you can have your succubus both out AND soul-linked (let alone being able to send her in to dps... LOL), if you can't achieve both of these then you can't match the 15% bonus damage from sacrificing her instead
3. that bonus 2% crit doesn't even come close to making up to the flaws listed in 1 and 2.
this is why 0/40/21 doesn't match up to 0/21/40. heck I personnaly believe a good afliction lock (be it a 41/x/x or 40/0/21) would do more damage than a 0/40/21 simply because their 'full potential' (soul-linked sucubus who attacks) just simply ins't achievable against almost all bosses.
If you're gonna go that deep into demo for raiding, you NEED the felguard as it's the only pet we have (currently) that is capable of surviving boss aoe AND even be soul-linked on the odd occasion... also it deals the best dps out of the lot of them. so a x/41/xx build would do more damage.
I've almost matched my destruction dps as felguard spec on a number of occasions, so i know from experience that the spec does work, and arguably is the 2nd best raiding spec we have for damage post gruul/mag.
Edited, Aug 7th 2008 10:45pm by Jenovaomega
Jenovaomega wrote:
why is it not better?
1. the increased spell damage may add up to 20% or more of your spell damage at a VERY low gear level, but beyond that it doesn't, in which case the 'Shadow and Flame' talent beats the increased spell damage in terms of the damage increase provided to your main nuke spell.
2. there aren't many bosses where you can have your succubus both out AND soul-linked (let alone being able to send her in to dps... LOL), if you can't achieve both of these then you can't match the 15% bonus damage from sacrificing her instead
3. that bonus 2% crit doesn't even come close to making up to the flaws listed in 1 and 2.
this is why 0/40/21 doesn't match up to 0/21/40. heck I personnaly believe a good afliction lock (be it a 41/x/x or 40/0/21) would do more damage than a 0/40/21 simply because their 'full potential' (soul-linked sucubus who attacks) just simply ins't achievable against almost all bosses.
If you're gonna go that deep into demo for raiding, you NEED the felguard as it's the only pet we have (currently) that is capable of surviving boss aoe AND even be soul-linked on the odd occasion... also it deals the best dps out of the lot of them. so a x/41/xx build would do more damage.
I've almost matched my destruction dps as felguard spec on a number of occasions, so i know from experience that the spec does work, and arguably is the 2nd best raiding spec we have for damage post gruul/mag.
1. the increased spell damage may add up to 20% or more of your spell damage at a VERY low gear level, but beyond that it doesn't, in which case the 'Shadow and Flame' talent beats the increased spell damage in terms of the damage increase provided to your main nuke spell.
2. there aren't many bosses where you can have your succubus both out AND soul-linked (let alone being able to send her in to dps... LOL), if you can't achieve both of these then you can't match the 15% bonus damage from sacrificing her instead
3. that bonus 2% crit doesn't even come close to making up to the flaws listed in 1 and 2.
this is why 0/40/21 doesn't match up to 0/21/40. heck I personnaly believe a good afliction lock (be it a 41/x/x or 40/0/21) would do more damage than a 0/40/21 simply because their 'full potential' (soul-linked sucubus who attacks) just simply ins't achievable against almost all bosses.
If you're gonna go that deep into demo for raiding, you NEED the felguard as it's the only pet we have (currently) that is capable of surviving boss aoe AND even be soul-linked on the odd occasion... also it deals the best dps out of the lot of them. so a x/41/xx build would do more damage.
I've almost matched my destruction dps as felguard spec on a number of occasions, so i know from experience that the spec does work, and arguably is the 2nd best raiding spec we have for damage post gruul/mag.
For raiding 0/40/21 is weaksauce. The major downside is that that utility it provides is useless in raids.
The utility for 5 mans is great.
Soothing kiss. Pally and druid tanks love it.
Great CC, as long as you can use it right
Good damage. Although, its not as high as other specs.
.
Edited, Aug 8th 2008 12:49am by ramera
just to derail a bit, personly i prefeer a 40/0/21 build for raiding. gives pretty much all the affi stuff incl malediction and shadow mastery, and also gives the destruction boost with ruin. so far with about 1k spelldamage (and less crit than advicable)im usually highest dps in groups and raids even if im using malediction.
Could i not just have my succubus out with soul link but then be on passive? That would grant me all the extra damage and then she wouldn't die. I haven't full checked this out but maybe with soul link she would lose her invisibility thing therefore being open to attacks.
unlike phaseshift, the invisibility doesn't stop boss aoe damage, so the moment the boss does any, it'll take damage and it's likely to die soon after due to soul-link. also as I said, because the demonic knowledge +dmg bonus WON'T make up 20% of your total +dmg, that talent alone won't make up for the lost damage increase to your shadowbolt from not having the 'Shadow and flame' talent, so to even stand a chance of making up the lost damage you need your pet to melee, which it can't for fear of death.
now on some bosses, you can leave your pet far behind you in a corner on stay out of aoe range, but this'll leave it susseptable to dieing from soul-link as it'll be out of healer range AND suseptable to being despawned because you moved to far away.
in the end it's your choice how you play, you pay for your account. but if you want to maximise your damage, 0/40/21 is a very bad choice for 25 man raids. both an afliction and felguard spec will out dps you and a 0/21/40 spec will leave you trailing miles behind.
now on some bosses, you can leave your pet far behind you in a corner on stay out of aoe range, but this'll leave it susseptable to dieing from soul-link as it'll be out of healer range AND suseptable to being despawned because you moved to far away.
in the end it's your choice how you play, you pay for your account. but if you want to maximise your damage, 0/40/21 is a very bad choice for 25 man raids. both an afliction and felguard spec will out dps you and a 0/21/40 spec will leave you trailing miles behind.
Buzak wrote:
just to derail a bit, personly i prefeer a 40/0/21 build for raiding. gives pretty much all the affi stuff incl malediction and shadow mastery, and also gives the destruction boost with ruin. so far with about 1k spelldamage (and less crit than advicable)im usually highest dps in groups and raids even if im using malediction.
UA > Ruin. 41/0/20 is better then 40/0/21, this has been proved.
Crit isn't required for an Afflic build. Sure it helps on SBs which are 35-45% of your DPS, but spell damage and spell hit (202) are what you want.
Is their gear worse then yours? You don't have the gear for Destro yet so stick afflic. Destro is the best DPS for later end game (T6). 1100+ spell damage, 202 spell hit, 20% crit is when Destro really beats out Afflic. 2 pc T6 is also very recommended.
UA is only greater than ruin at lower crit rates. come 25+% crit, Ruin > UA, this has been proved plenty of times
kk DPS is in from good old Dr.Boom.
With just self buffs and no pots food i did the following DPS.
As 0-40-21 i did 1024 DPS with Sucubus out, no obviously Dr. Boom can't kill my pet so this is the max possible DPS i could ever do as this spec. This on something like void reaver where my demon aint gonna die.
As 0-21-40 i did 1189 DPS so not a massive difference that i was expecting but again when my pet dies my dps would hit the floor. So this is clearly better. And the 2% crit wasn't noticeable.
As 40-0-21 i did 998 DPS now i was confused when doing this both in choosing talent points and the DPS cycle. I did SL-Corruption - CoE and then spammed SB until one DoT ran out and then refreshed it. This could be terrible as a cycle but i would never raid with this spec i don't think. Also i didn't spec for imp. CoA instead went for malediction hope that was the right choice.
As 41-x-x can't remember exactly but i had at least 15 points in destro for imp. SB Bane and 5% crit. ne way DPS was terrible. Again i suck at this spec because it requires thought lol. 976 DPS
Using the same spec as above i used amplify curse of doom for a 2nd round and that worked treats on the DPS broke 1K but was hard to get the exact DPS after 5 minutes (which is how long i did each test for)
Might try out a fire spec soon and add it in. All tests i did were 5 minutes and no gear was changed. i have 203 spell hit. 23.6% crit and 1009 spell damage and 35 spell haste rating. I used a mana potion at 75% mana left on each test to make sure i never went OOM during the test.
With just self buffs and no pots food i did the following DPS.
As 0-40-21 i did 1024 DPS with Sucubus out, no obviously Dr. Boom can't kill my pet so this is the max possible DPS i could ever do as this spec. This on something like void reaver where my demon aint gonna die.
As 0-21-40 i did 1189 DPS so not a massive difference that i was expecting but again when my pet dies my dps would hit the floor. So this is clearly better. And the 2% crit wasn't noticeable.
As 40-0-21 i did 998 DPS now i was confused when doing this both in choosing talent points and the DPS cycle. I did SL-Corruption - CoE and then spammed SB until one DoT ran out and then refreshed it. This could be terrible as a cycle but i would never raid with this spec i don't think. Also i didn't spec for imp. CoA instead went for malediction hope that was the right choice.
As 41-x-x can't remember exactly but i had at least 15 points in destro for imp. SB Bane and 5% crit. ne way DPS was terrible. Again i suck at this spec because it requires thought lol. 976 DPS
Using the same spec as above i used amplify curse of doom for a 2nd round and that worked treats on the DPS broke 1K but was hard to get the exact DPS after 5 minutes (which is how long i did each test for)
Might try out a fire spec soon and add it in. All tests i did were 5 minutes and no gear was changed. i have 203 spell hit. 23.6% crit and 1009 spell damage and 35 spell haste rating. I used a mana potion at 75% mana left on each test to make sure i never went OOM during the test.
nice yanky toon, but as you said, you screwed up the dot cycle for afliction.
it'a CoA, Corruption (and UA if you have it) and immolate. siphon life isn't worth casting and keeping a VERY tight cycle is a requirement (CoD > Cor > imm > SB spam rotation keeps a good tight rotation going, with maybe room between CoA and Cor for 1 lifetap, for immolate you pre-cast to keep it tight). If you're up for it, try out this combination, this is the optimum afliction dps rotation, and for obvious reasons you're more likely to be casting CoE instead due to the opportunity for the talent.
try it again, you should see a nice increase. also try the 0/40/21 spec with say... imp out (or succy on stay far away without soul-link) instead without soul-link for a more realistic pve boss combination.. the damage will obviously be alot lower and closer to what you'll actually achieve. (basically something that is likely to be forced onto you, be it by the raid leader or the boss type.. also succy not dieing on voidreaver?!?, maybe with the pet resistance trinket... but otherwise I'm faily certain it'd die)
it'a CoA, Corruption (and UA if you have it) and immolate. siphon life isn't worth casting and keeping a VERY tight cycle is a requirement (CoD > Cor > imm > SB spam rotation keeps a good tight rotation going, with maybe room between CoA and Cor for 1 lifetap, for immolate you pre-cast to keep it tight). If you're up for it, try out this combination, this is the optimum afliction dps rotation, and for obvious reasons you're more likely to be casting CoE instead due to the opportunity for the talent.
try it again, you should see a nice increase. also try the 0/40/21 spec with say... imp out (or succy on stay far away without soul-link) instead without soul-link for a more realistic pve boss combination.. the damage will obviously be alot lower and closer to what you'll actually achieve. (basically something that is likely to be forced onto you, be it by the raid leader or the boss type.. also succy not dieing on voidreaver?!?, maybe with the pet resistance trinket... but otherwise I'm faily certain it'd die)
kk i will try the new cycle soon but amazingly i have little gold atm spent roughly 300g doing that last post lol and with 2 level 70's i am constantly re-gemming and getting new enchants. I have never tried VR with a pet out but avoiding those gigantic shiny glowy balls aint to hard. Ok will post soon enough on the DPS change
the pet doesn't get hit by the balls (if you have it attacking) it gets hit by the aoe arcane attack, like 8k damage over 4 seconds or something. the balls yeah are pretty easy to dodge... but 1 hit by them and your succy is dead. been awhile since I last done ssc and tk, bt and sunwell ftw (basically forgotten about hyjal.. lol)
What your also forgetting is that 21/40 scales MUCH better with gear than 40/21. S&F makes your Sbolts hit much harder when you start getting more spell damage. Then when you start doing some Sunwell the haste in there is an even larger boost to your Sbolts.
With any type of haste gear 21/40 will destroy 40/21 even if you have your Succy out all the time and hitting the mob.
Edit: Spelling and Grammar
Edited, Aug 9th 2008 11:13pm by Tugnus
With any type of haste gear 21/40 will destroy 40/21 even if you have your Succy out all the time and hitting the mob.
Edit: Spelling and Grammar
Edited, Aug 9th 2008 11:13pm by Tugnus
Recent Visitors: 11
All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (11)
- Forums
- World of Warcraft
- Class Discussion
- 0-40-21 over 0-21-40
© 2024 Fanbyte LLC