Crit for holy priest?Follow

My understanding is that healing and spirit are king and queen for holy priests. Crit is much farther down on the priority list. There may be a special circumstance at your level of play that I'm unaware of, however.

As far as math goes, Elitist Jerks says WRT spell crit:

Well my first thought is that I (holy priest +1820) would gladly give up +crit for +healing and mp5 any day. Perhaps I just havent seen content that required me to stack +crit? Although, personally, I would rather have big consistent heals with lots of +healing rather than unreliable burst like heals as a result of stacking +crit.

Perhaps I am missing something else. Whats was he wearing and what was he forced to replace it with? I am curious, presuming that I understood you right, your guild actually forced him to roll/use dkp on the "upgrade".

Personally I'd like a bit more information on what his stats are like before rushing to judgement, but I'll suppose he's got Holy Specialization anyway, but as the others have said MP5/healing is much preferred over crit for holy priests.

Can we at least know what he'd currently got equipped (and what the new item is) that losing was worth any drama over? If the spell crit-mp5/+healing tradeoff was the only difference I'd have to say he's just being an **** as it's obviously an upgrade of some sort to him.

Edited, Aug 5th 2008 4:46pm by cococj

So Tyr just to clarify, once you saw that he was wearing it you deducted half his DKP as if he'd bid on it rather than min it? I assume that's what the reference to "forced to 'bid'" meant and what the drama is!?

Edit: Sorry just saw your edit. I'd say it's a tough call, I can see both sides here. He was losing quite a bit of crit for not much +healing/mp5 so from that perspective he felt it wasn't an upgrade thus he didn't "need" it using your system. On the other hand his behaviour tells a different story, he obviously prefers this item over the original and regardless of the stats involved I think his own behaviour - that he's made it part of his raid healing set - should be what any judgement is based on.

Edited, Aug 5th 2008 5:49pm by cococj

I agree with alot VomicatheFaithful has said on this and ultimately this might come down to what your current rules say on this and whether his actions were in the spirit of those rules.

I would like to say that this is a little different than Heroic drops as you're not potentially losing your DKP by rolling Need over Greed.

DKP systems exist to ensure that loot is distributed fairly, by acquiring this item in such a way he maintains his DKP while getting an [albeit minor] upgrade without risking any of his DKP in the process - allowing him to bid on something later with full DKP and I can see why that might feel a little unfair to the other people involved. Now while not strictly against any rules you have in place perhaps, I'd say that this is behaviour that should not be encouraged, he obviously didn't think the tradeoff of DKP for a few points here and there was worth it so again I can see why he's feeling alittle upset by this, but I think some balance here is needed, at the least his actions looked disingenuous to everyone else.

Whether you already have this in your rules or not now, I guess you will do so in the future ;)

Edited, Aug 5th 2008 6:29pm by cococj

Here is another way to look at it.

The afore mentioned gear is something that is going to make the said priest, in the end, a better priest, no? Well if this is the case and I was a Tank in your guild being constantly healed by such a priest, I would much rather him have the upgraded gear than giving it to your Spriest who would rarely if ever put it to as much good use as one of your guilds main healers.

In the end the entire guild is better off with your healer having that gear. Giving it to the Spriest helps noone and may even slow the guilds progression slightly.

Maybe looking at it this way would help?

I hadn't considered this senario. Thinking more on it, though, I still feel that he did nothing wrong.

Putting myself in the senario that you just decribed I think I would have to take it like this.

I just had the same oportunity to "Min" the previous drop but I didn't. Why not? Maybe because last week I got the same drop or my gear is better than the drop. Regardless, I chose not to "Min" it. Now when the real upgrades start to drop I decide its worth the dkp and roll need. I am beat by the priest who just got the last drop. I can't get angry he won fair and square. Plus know I have the upper hand with dkp so the next leet drop will be mine.

Maybe the solution is to change the "Min" roll you have going on to only being able to roll "Min" on something if its off suit. If you want if for main spec then you are forced to use your points or else DE the thing.

It's obviously not the first time something similar to this happen... and in fact, not the first time this particular priest pulls it off. This caused grumbling and disent among many of our raiders, who felt they were getting hosed because they weren't trying to manipulate the system and were essentially being 'good citizens'.

We do not want an item to drop and 'everybody' passing on it, to then try and nab it for free - this goes against the spirit of the system. We've made that clear before and warned people we might ask for 'full' price on a min if it was felt the system was being abused.

This is basically the first time it's being noticed by so many people, so we (the officers) have to do something about it, or lose face essentially.

Don't get me wrong, I understand the idea that the item is better off on the H Priest's set then as a piece of a shadow priest's offset... but the player should realise that as well, and should willingly spend the points for the upgrade - and so should the other healer that decided to not even roll min because they were afraid they'd get a dkp reduction .

Trying to wiggle out of an upgrade is greedy, and it opens at least three sizable can of worm;

1- Where do you draw the line? What's a 'minor' upgrade? A side grade? A 'real' upgrade?

The Cloak of the Shadowmoon Destroyer was only a 20dps upgrade out of 1800+ on my rogue... does that count as 'real' upgrade? What about a necklace which give +10? Or a Sword that gives +50? I mean, even +50 out of 1800 in't much. I could use this mentality to never Need on anything in all of BT/Hyjal until the Warglaives drop, and end up a T4/T5 geared liability to my entire raid... because ultimately, there's vert few 'big upgrade' in the game - it's all about a 1% upgrade here, a .7% upgrade there, etc.

2- It gives a value to dkp when really, it doesn't have value.

Hell, if the guildies are going to be greedy and try to weasel advantage out the system, we'll simply switch to loot council, at which point that priest would have been forced to take the Bracer and been put in the back anyway.

3 - It promote dishonesty, trickery, and guile.

If when a Blade of Infamy drops, none of the rogue 'need' and they all 'min', they're essentially in a cahoot to try and milk the system so to be in a better shape for T6 or other cross class drop. End result, the wealth doesn't get seperated based on effort and attendance, but rather on who is clever enough to manipulate the system - at the expense of those who are not clever enough, or who are honest and understand that the guild, and not the individual come first or those who raid for fun rather then for loot and don't even look at the dkp table.

In other words, it encourage all the flaws we don't want in our raiders, while discouraging the qualities we want.



It may sound draconic, and maybe it is, and maybe it's not the kind of guild you'd want to be in... but my guild's been around for well over 2 years and is now in BT, so we must be doing something right ;p.

This might end up in a total reshaping of our system - It's worked fine for years, but apparently some people are being a bit too greedy, and considerin that the system always needed a good measure of D.B.A.D. in order to work, it's a shame to say it seems to be coming to the end of a long run.

And honestly, that is not what the OP is about - merely about trying to see if his claim that it wasn't an upgrade was true.


Edited, Aug 5th 2008 8:32pm by Tyrandor

Edited, Aug 5th 2008 8:35pm by Tyrandor

By not "needing" it, the holy priest decided the item wasn't an upgrade for him. It would have been legitmate to roll for "Min" if he could use the item for any offspec. If it is an upgrade for any offspec and a "sidegrade" for his main gear, you can't blame him for getting it and using it as main gear too.

So the question is, did he need the item for any offspec?

If not, I'd say, let him pay and give him a clear warning not to do this %$#! again.

this is exactly why we used a modified bidding system instead of suicide kings or zero sum or any of that crap

:D

Maybe I'm missing something here...


Your DKP system works like this:

If you need the item you pay your DKP for it
But if noone wants it too badly, its basically a free for all roll for off-specs and what-not

Why on earth would you care then? It was a minor upgrade that he could have lived without, so he didn't warrant spending his points on it over something he really needed, but it was still slightly better than what he was using so he threw his roll into the ring

If someone else wanted it they could have taken it fair and square


Personally I would be rather pissed if I was the priest