It's maitenance day, so I figured I'd ask a question here.
PUG in HMech the other night, warrior tank, me (feral druid) dps/OT, MM hunter, resto shammy and destruction lock. The lock wouldn't seduce. "I'm destro," he said. He banished and enslaved at the right times, knew how to dps, but would summon a succy only to sacrifice her.
Why? He gets a buff from sacrificing his demon I presume? And is that worth the loss of cc? I never got past 5 on my lock so was ill-equipped to second-guess him but figure you folks can. Should I not count on destro locks doing seduce (or blood pact)?
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Warlocks have no cc?Follow
Yes, Destro Locks receive a 15% buff to shadow damage when they sacrifice their Succubus. However, this is no excuse to not CC. If the CC is needed than that should be first priority. Seduce should also be the first CC to be killed though, so at that point you can Sacrifice.
Blood Pact is a different matter. It's like what, 700 HP w/o talents? If 700 HP is gonna make the difference, your in trouble anyway, and should not really be asked for. There may be a few certain exceptions in raids where everyone needs a certain amount of HP to not be one shotted. Najentus comes to mind, where you need 8500 HP, and sometimes your healers can be lacking a little there. Other than a few specific examples like that though, I'd rather see stiff die faster, than have 700 extra HP on party members.
Blood Pact is a different matter. It's like what, 700 HP w/o talents? If 700 HP is gonna make the difference, your in trouble anyway, and should not really be asked for. There may be a few certain exceptions in raids where everyone needs a certain amount of HP to not be one shotted. Najentus comes to mind, where you need 8500 HP, and sometimes your healers can be lacking a little there. Other than a few specific examples like that though, I'd rather see stiff die faster, than have 700 extra HP on party members.
#1. Succubus CC sucks. Everytime I've seen a lock try it, their succubus dies in like 1-2 hits... and then the lock gets roflstomped.
#2. Sacrificing the succubus (and having no pet after) gives +15% damage to shadow spells.
Demo Sac in 5 mans won't have a pet out. Always ask for someone's spec before inviting IMHO (even pure dps). Don't be sad you invited an arcane mage in mostly quest greens.
#2. Sacrificing the succubus (and having no pet after) gives +15% damage to shadow spells.
Demo Sac in 5 mans won't have a pet out. Always ask for someone's spec before inviting IMHO (even pure dps). Don't be sad you invited an arcane mage in mostly quest greens.
Even as a demo lock, I've gotta admit that the Suc CC isn't all that hot - its about on par with a hunter ice trap I guess. If the group was doing fine with just the hunter CCing then no point in depriving yourselves of the lock's enhanced DPS from having sacrificed his Suc, otherwise, dump him or the hunter and get a mage.
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#1. Succubus CC sucks. Everytime I've seen a lock try it, their succubus dies in like 1-2 hits... and then the lock gets roflstomped.
Thats why you aggro before seduce (shadowburn,searing pain,drain life,drain mana,drain soul..) then you move from your succy ,when mob breaks it goes after you,since you made some distance from it next seduce will be easy. Even easier when you use macro.
Most people underestimate seduce as cc ,but its far from useless.
also most warlocks don't realise this, but fear is a viable CC method if you're good at using CoReclessness to control where the mob runs to as well as if you know where to stand and face in comparison to the mob you're fearing as you cast fear as these both affect the direction the mob with run, with some practice you can get a pretty accurate idea of where your mob will go as you fear (your aim is to get it to go behind the party towards where you've already cleared mobs).
Locks of Alla, don't sell yourselves short! I've seen seduce work wonders. And if it's only as good as a hunter's trap then it's....the second best cc in the game after sheep. So I'd want it. (Also, as a feral druid, blood pact gives me more than 1k health if I'm tanking, which is helpful, though perhaps not as much as the lock burning mobs 15% faster.)
Seduce may not have been needed here -- the pug melted down for unrelated reasons, the ones that destroy pugs. Thanks for the info, I will keep all that in mind in the future.
Seduce may not have been needed here -- the pug melted down for unrelated reasons, the ones that destroy pugs. Thanks for the info, I will keep all that in mind in the future.
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#1. Succubus CC sucks. Everytime I've seen a lock try it, their succubus dies in like 1-2 hits... and then the lock gets roflstomped.
Thats why you aggro before seduce (shadowburn,searing pain,drain life,drain mana,drain soul..) then you move from your succy ,when mob breaks it goes after you,since you made some distance from it next seduce will be easy. Even easier when you use macro.
Most people underestimate seduce as cc ,but its far from useless.
have to agree there. Seduce DOES NOT suck as CC. If your a good lock you can make it one of the best CC's available.
CoE > Searing Pain > Focused Seduce Macro
If you make yourself a focused Searing Pain Macro also, and watch your Seduce timer, you can Searing Pain again as Seduce is about to wear off, then re-seduce, with a focused seduce macro. You also never have to change your target off the main DPS target and lose almost no DPS time doing this.
I've had people cringe when I said I could seduce, I've had people tell me the same exact thing you just said. Then they see how I seduce and they changed their minds real fast. It is far from useless, and if other options are not available, or in the case of MgT where you need as much CC as possible, it is very effective, and even a Demo Sac warlock should suck it up and deal with it. I do, or did when I was still Destro anyway. Seeing as I don't raid above T4 anymore, I've been having fun with Demo again.
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Yes, Destro Locks with Demonic Sacrifice in the Demonology tree receive a 15% buff to shadow damage when they sacrifice their Succubus.
Fixed.
Seduce can be very useful and is far from useless. I used it just fine last night in hArc. No breaks, no pet killing, no getting hit by the mob. You just have to watch the time and use distance to your advantage same as banish.
Also available is a good, old-fashioned kite-fear. Kite the mob back to a cleared area with CoEx, Fear, ..., Profit.
Technically you are correct there, but really, who other than Destro Locks Sac their Succy?
A somewhat related question - What mods (if needed) are you guys using to determine amount of time left on a seduce? I do the worst (and most inefficient) tracking method - flip between the mob I am burning down and the one being seduced in order to see the timer. Any pointers would be greatly appreciated.
I use DoTimer for watching all my spell durations. Works very nicely with my reduced UI, very space efficient. But before the add-on, I just counted (learned that from my rogue's sap). The add-on is easier, definitely. lol.
Yeah, just pointing it out for newer forum lurkers. I've run a 40/21/0 spec for 5-mans and it did better in some ways than 41/5/11+4 or 0/21/40. Especially with limited CC tanks (i.e. Pallies) where you could just dot-tab and seed-tab your way through the place. ;)
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Technically you are correct there, but really, who other than Destro Locks Sac their Succy?
Yeah, just pointing it out for newer forum lurkers. I've run a 40/21/0 spec for 5-mans and it did better in some ways than 41/5/11+4 or 0/21/40. Especially with limited CC tanks (i.e. Pallies) where you could just dot-tab and seed-tab your way through the place. ;)
just get a good enough tank and healer and you don't need CC :P
36 posts
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A somewhat related question - What mods (if needed) are you guys using to determine amount of time left on a seduce? I do the worst (and most inefficient) tracking method - flip between the mob I am burning down and the one being seduced in order to see the timer. Any pointers would be greatly appreciated.
FocusFrame addon and then make a macro to Focus and Seduce your target.
#showtooltip
/clearfocus [modifier:alt]
/focus [target=focus,noexists]; [target=focus,dead]
/clearfocus [target=focus,help]
/petstay
/petfollow
/cast [pet:succubus,target=focus,exists,harm] Seduction; Seduction
When you target something and click the macro, the target gets focussed and seduced. You can then target something else and DPS away and just click the macro as needed to re-seduce the Focussed mob. Clicking the macro while holding ALT will let you switch Focus to a different target before your old one is dead if you need to. I used to flip back and forth when I first started using Seduction in instances. Doing it this way saves alot of dps-time and frustration.
Jenovaomega wrote:
also most warlocks don't realise this, but fear is a viable CC method if you're good at using CoReclessness to control where the mob runs to as well as if you know where to stand and face in comparison to the mob you're fearing as you cast fear as these both affect the direction the mob with run, with some practice you can get a pretty accurate idea of where your mob will go as you fear (your aim is to get it to go behind the party towards where you've already cleared mobs).
Unfortunately, this will be removed with WotLK - CoR will no longer remove Fear. So we're back to seduce. Which, frankly, with a bit of practice and the macro above, works well. I use it in MgT to great success.
Jenovaomega wrote:
just get a good enough tank and healer and you don't need CC :P
BUT...amen to this. My guild's top tank and healer allow me to nuke away without pulling aggro. We can 3 man certain parts of certain Heroics too, on a good day.
just checked the CoRec on mmo-champion, you right they've removed the "and ignore fear and horror effects".... what bastards. :(
ok, well fear will be an ALMOST viable CC if you spam the target with searing pain the moment it runs in the wrong direction to HOPEFULLY break fear ^^ lol
that or we get a glyph that stops mobs from running away and makes them run in circles like fear originally did ^^
Edited, Aug 6th 2008 7:12am by Jenovaomega
ok, well fear will be an ALMOST viable CC if you spam the target with searing pain the moment it runs in the wrong direction to HOPEFULLY break fear ^^ lol
that or we get a glyph that stops mobs from running away and makes them run in circles like fear originally did ^^
Edited, Aug 6th 2008 7:12am by Jenovaomega
I personally prefer to run a 0/40/21 build. I also prefer to keep my succy out just for 5 man utility (Soothing Kiss!). She does work just as well as a hunter trap, even better when you think about it. Seduce doesn't have a cooldown.
I like to use fear and seduce at the same time.
Searing Pain > Seduce (focus macro) > Fear (Focus macro) > Reapply seduce when needed (macro)
Keeps the mob from charging me, and allows me to CC in tight areas that even hunters would hate.
Edited, Aug 7th 2008 3:07am by ramera
I like to use fear and seduce at the same time.
Searing Pain > Seduce (focus macro) > Fear (Focus macro) > Reapply seduce when needed (macro)
Keeps the mob from charging me, and allows me to CC in tight areas that even hunters would hate.
Edited, Aug 7th 2008 3:07am by ramera
ya a good method, though when it comes to keeping a mob safely seduced, i find shadowfury or CoEx are the better options for when you have to re-seduce
Seduce takes a little more precision than other forms of CC.
It has a short duration.
It is resisted more than others.
It breaks when Succubus is recasting. So for 1.5 seconds, the target is free.
A Heroic MgT mob, for example, can do a lot of damage in 1.5 seconds. Its imperative that the lock maintains aggro on the seduced target and keeps good distance between recasts.
It has a short duration.
It is resisted more than others.
It breaks when Succubus is recasting. So for 1.5 seconds, the target is free.
A Heroic MgT mob, for example, can do a lot of damage in 1.5 seconds. Its imperative that the lock maintains aggro on the seduced target and keeps good distance between recasts.
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Seduce takes a little more precision than other forms of CC.
It has a short duration.
It is resisted more than others.
It breaks when Succubus is recasting. So for 1.5 seconds, the target is free.
A Heroic MgT mob, for example, can do a lot of damage in 1.5 seconds. Its imperative that the lock maintains aggro on the seduced target and keeps good distance between recasts.
It has a short duration.
It is resisted more than others.
It breaks when Succubus is recasting. So for 1.5 seconds, the target is free.
A Heroic MgT mob, for example, can do a lot of damage in 1.5 seconds. Its imperative that the lock maintains aggro on the seduced target and keeps good distance between recasts.
Putting CoE on the target helps those resists alot. Even before I had any Hit I rarely saw any resisted because I used CoE.
your hit doesn't affect it at all, not until wotlk at least. the pet just has it's base hit chance, the CoE is there to simply remove the chance of a partial resist (which for a binary spell like seduce is a complete resist)
Jenovaomega wrote:
ya a good method, though when it comes to keeping a mob safely seduced, i find shadowfury or CoEx are the better options for when you have to re-seduce
Agreed. I however cant in my normal heroic spec. Its 0/40/21. It does however do the job nicely.
Jenovaomega wrote:
also most warlocks don't realise this, but fear is a viable CC method if you're good at using CoReclessness to control where the mob runs to as well as if you know where to stand and face in comparison to the mob you're fearing as you cast fear as these both affect the direction the mob with run, with some practice you can get a pretty accurate idea of where your mob will go as you fear (your aim is to get it to go behind the party towards where you've already cleared mobs).
Hit the nail on the head. I've been doing this a lot recently when the group was lacking CC.
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