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#127 Nov 22 2008 at 9:35 AM Rating: Decent
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TherionSaysWhat wrote:
New macros to add:

/cast [target=targettarget] Tricks of the Trade

Use this on a mob when it's attacking the tank and you're good. I've also been messing with:

/cast [target=focus] Tricks of the Trade

Use in tandem with setting the tank as focus obviously. This works more like a traditional MD and is great when a mob turns to the healer. Either can be useful for different situations. I have yet to try this as a MD pull, but I really really wanna ;D

Cheers

You can combine those two.

/cast [target=focus, help, exists] Tricks of the Trade;
/cast [target=targettarget, help, exists] Tricks of the Trade; Tricks of the Trade

The last TotT is to cast it on your target if you don't have a ToT or focus. Keep in mind though, if your target has a ToT that's a player, you'll cast TotT on them. That's why I just use:

/cast [target=focus, help, exists] Tricks of the Trade; Tricks of the Trade

Uses on your focus or your target. I don't have my ToT shown, so that part of my macro is pretty worthless.
#128 Nov 23 2008 at 11:31 AM Rating: Decent
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Overlord Theophany wrote:
As Nooblestick, the illustrious author of our most excellent Rogue Guide

Heh, that gave me a nice laugh. Anyway, great work writing a new guide. In case anyone was wondering, yes, I quit the game several months ago. Had to take a week long unexpected break and my guild decided to sideline me afterwards. I got an invite to maybe 1 in 3 raids, and was passed over for loot for literally 5 weeks. I just got fed up with it and quit, I wasn't really enjoying it anymore. Picked it back up for WotLK, so I may be lurking the forums again. We'll see.

Oh, and I'm over on Rivendare now, playing with some RL friends. Name is still Fishbeans.

#129 Nov 23 2008 at 3:37 PM Rating: Decent
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13,048 posts
Nooblestick is back! Smiley: grinSmiley: yippee
#130 Nov 23 2008 at 7:45 PM Rating: Good
Overlord Theophany wrote:
TherionSaysWhat wrote:
New macros to add:

/cast [target=targettarget] Tricks of the Trade

Use this on a mob when it's attacking the tank and you're good. I've also been messing with:

/cast [target=focus] Tricks of the Trade

Use in tandem with setting the tank as focus obviously. This works more like a traditional MD and is great when a mob turns to the healer. Either can be useful for different situations. I have yet to try this as a MD pull, but I really really wanna ;D

Cheers

You can combine those two.

/cast [target=focus, help, exists] Tricks of the Trade;
/cast [target=targettarget, help, exists] Tricks of the Trade; Tricks of the Trade

The last TotT is to cast it on your target if you don't have a ToT or focus. Keep in mind though, if your target has a ToT that's a player, you'll cast TotT on them. That's why I just use:

/cast [target=focus, help, exists] Tricks of the Trade; Tricks of the Trade

Uses on your focus or your target. I don't have my ToT shown, so that part of my macro is pretty worthless.



I just use the tricks of the trade button and 'F2'. :P I'll probably have to set something up for raids though... There's no player shortcuts of raids are there? Maybe I'll just do a simple focus TotT macro like you have. Easy enough to set focus on the tank at the start.
#131 Nov 24 2008 at 2:41 AM Rating: Good
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Ok, so I have one question (just want to make sure) about Quick Recovery talent.

"All healing effects on you are increased by 10/20%. In addition, your finishing moves cost 40/80% less Energy when they fail to hit."

So my question is: when our special attacks are hit capped we won't get that second part of that talent (refunding energy), right?
#132 Nov 24 2008 at 9:29 AM Rating: Excellent
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2,680 posts
Right.

And I was trying to keep the TtT macro example simple for the peeps, yo ;) Also, in raid (and if it's not me) I use my focus slot for the MA. The targettarget variation can be dangerous, so watch out kids.

Welcome back Nooblestick!
#133 Nov 24 2008 at 10:40 AM Rating: Decent
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1,538 posts
Drayna wrote:
Ok, so I have one question (just want to make sure) about Quick Recovery talent.

"All healing effects on you are increased by 10/20%. In addition, your finishing moves cost 40/80% less Energy when they fail to hit."

So my question is: when our special attacks are hit capped we won't get that second part of that talent (refunding energy), right?

Your finishing moves can still be dodged, so until you cap expertise as well, it still provides a small benefit. It's really not the best raiding talent, though, unless you know there's going to be a lot of unavoidable damage. Most raid encounters are really about avoiding that damage in the first place, and early raid encounters don't have all that much damage that can't be avoided (though I haven't done any WotLK raids yet).
#134 Nov 24 2008 at 3:22 PM Rating: Decent
I suggest including a link to this:

http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t37183-pocket_guide_wotlk/

It's approximately accurate, simple and informative.
#135 Nov 24 2008 at 9:23 PM Rating: Good
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1,538 posts
Just skimmed through that post, and it seems almost worthless. Suggesting using faster weapons in the mainhand? Did something major change while I was gone? Also, most of the answers to questions like "what food/gem/enchant should I use" are just a list of things that give us bonuses. Yeah, that's real useful, list every single consumable that benefits us as an answer to which one should be used.
#136 Nov 25 2008 at 8:01 AM Rating: Default
Nooblestick wrote:
Just skimmed through that post, and it seems almost worthless. Suggesting using faster weapons in the mainhand? Did something major change while I was gone? Also, most of the answers to questions like "what food/gem/enchant should I use" are just a list of things that give us bonuses. Yeah, that's real useful, list every single consumable that benefits us as an answer to which one should be used.


Er, yes, a lot changed while you were gone. You know, we got a load of new talents, poison mechanics were revamped, we got new gear and abilities - oh hey, there was a whole expansion! That's pretty major.

Yes, the guide is right. You want to put IP on your MH and you want a fast MH. It's not worthless, you're just wrong and, to boot, a bit silly for challenging something when you have no idea what you're talking about.

P.S. It doesn't give definite answers to two small sections but, using the EP weights, you can work out an approximate guess (or use the spreadsheet).
#137 Nov 25 2008 at 10:09 AM Rating: Decent
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Kavekk wrote:
Er, yes, a lot changed while you were gone. You know, we got a load of new talents, poison mechanics were revamped, we got new gear and abilities - oh hey, there was a whole expansion! That's pretty major.

I'm talking about core mechanics, idiot. New talents don't change the basic formula to calculate instant attack damage. Something that's been true since the beginning of WoW is that you want a slow mainhand to maximize damage on your instant attacks. The only thing I can think of that would change this is if they no longer use the actual weapon damage to calculate ability damage, and instead use DPS. Or, it's possible that poisons scaled up so much that the extra poison procs yield more damage than the extra mutilate damage.

How about a real answer next time instead of being an idiotic @#%^ just looking to lash out?

Quote:
Yes, the guide is right. You want to put IP on your MH and you want a fast MH.

Care to explain why, or to point me to somewhere that does explain why?

Quote:
P.S. It doesn't give definite answers to two small sections but, using the EP weights, you can work out an approximate guess (or use the spreadsheet).

Those "two small sections" are half the guide, and will be the most common questions. Most of the rest of the information is so basic I'd consider it common knowledge. Sure, there's some useful info there (AEP values, for instance), but the rest is either so nonspecific that it doesn't need to be posted at all, or trivial to figure out yourself. The good information it does have doesn't provide any of the actual theorycrafting behind it. The thread it links to is still BC information, and as such, useless.

Edited, Nov 25th 2008 12:24pm by Nooblestick
#138 Nov 25 2008 at 11:03 AM Rating: Decent
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The main reason we use fast MHs as mut is because of focused attacks and poison procs, Nooble. IP in a raid spec is much more powerful than it was, to the point where we don't mind a very small drop in MH damage on mut.
#139 Nov 25 2008 at 11:06 AM Rating: Default
I called you silly. That's pretty mild - I thought you liekd Theophany? Must be a relationship filled with tension. Anyway, it's not meant to be supported by theorycraft, it's a pocket guide.

If you want theorycraft, read through:

http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t36781-rogue_simple_questions_simple_answers/p5/#post982560

Starting from there.

Essentially:

Poison damage has increased by a great deal - now affected by hit and scales with AP.
Focused Attacks, a new talent. (Ohy my, a new talent helps change the optimal weapon speed. I guess you were wrong on that one, too)

Both mean you want Fast-fast. Speed matters a lot for Mainhand because that's the optimal place for instant poison, so finishers proc it, and thus MH speed = more MH procs. It outweighs the loss of DPS on mut from the faster speed.

Lastly, they are not half the guide. How about you stop challenging a source until you know what you are talking about?
#140 Nov 25 2008 at 11:35 AM Rating: Good
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1,538 posts
Kavekk wrote:
I called you silly. That's pretty mild

Your post was dripping with sarcasm and thinly veiled insults. zomg, there was an expansion? Really, I didn't know that!

Quote:
Focused Attacks, a new talent. (Ohy my, a new talent helps change the optimal weapon speed. I guess you were wrong on that one, too)

I guess this is mild too? The difference in energy regeneration from a 1.8 speed to a 1.4 speed would be almost trivial. This was not the deciding factor. A 1.8 speed weapon with a 33% crit chance regenerates .37 energy per second. A 1.4 speed regenerates .47 per second. That's a difference of 60 energy over a long (10 minute) boss fight. Not nearly as much extra damage as the lost damage from mutilate. This is an added perk of a faster MH, not a reason to use one. If you're going to be condescending, you should probably understand what you're talking about first.

Quote:
Lastly, they are not half the guide. How about you stop challenging a source until you know what you are talking about?

I do know what I'm talking about. I was one of the first (if not the first) to theorycraft Mutilate when it was added, determining the formula from scratch. I wrote the guide that had been stickied here for what, almost two years? I'd say I'm more than qualified to raise objections about other peoples' work. The simple fact is that guide is one part useless information, one part trivial information, and one part useful information. The entire thing could be condensed to a dozen lines and still provide the same information.
#141 Nov 25 2008 at 11:57 AM Rating: Default
Quote:
I guess this is mild too? The difference in energy regeneration from a 1.8 speed to a 1.4 speed would be almost trivial. This was not the deciding factor. A 1.8 speed weapon with a 33% crit chance regenerates .37 energy per second. A 1.4 speed regenerates .47 per second. That's a difference of 60 energy over a long (10 minute) boss fight. Not nearly as much extra damage as the lost damage from mutilate. This is an added perk of a faster MH, not a reason to use one. If you're going to be condescending, you should probably understand what you're talking about first.


Notice the word HELPS? I'm talking to you like you're stupid because you're saying STUPID THINGS. Saying "unless soemthing changed" when there have been massive game changes is asking for an ironic response. The fact is that I know FAR more about WotLK rogue mechanics than you, as do those that wrote the guide. You are in no position to judge.

Quote:
I do know what I'm talking about. I was one of the first (if not the first) to theorycraft Mutilate when it was added, determining the formula from scratch. I wrote the guide that had been stickied here for what, almost two years?


No, you don't. Just because you're good at newtonian physics doesn't mean you should use their principles to challenge quantum theory. You haven't a ******* clue what you're talking about - you don't even know you're meant to use a fast weapon in MH.

Ironically, your criticism applies to your own guide. The race section could be made much, much shorter, but instead it provides the information with very little analysis.
#142 Nov 25 2008 at 1:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kavekk wrote:

Notice the word HELPS?

It has so little impact that it is a nonfactor. You'd get one extra Mutilate over a 10 minute fight. If you're doing 2,000 DPS and averaging 5,000 damage per mutilate (a massively unrealistically optimistic evaluation in favor of your opinion), the difference in damage output is .41%. Or, another way to think about it, it would be as if you had another 2.5 seconds on target, over a 600 second fight. More realistic numbers would probably put that at less than a tenth of a percent, and at less than a second extra DPS time. The damage lost from lower mutilate damage would be at least an order of magnitude larger. The difference is so incredibly small that it's simply not even worth considering.

Quote:
I'm talking to you like you're stupid because you're saying STUPID THINGS.

I am? I'm asking for the theory behind things, how is that stupid?

Quote:
Saying "unless soemthing changed" when there have been massive game changes is asking for an ironic response.

I said "unless something major has changed, in regard to game mechanics. The simplest answer would have been "Yes, poions have been scaled up." You decided instead that you were going to be a Richard because you think you know more than me, when all you've been capable of doing is regurgitating what others have written.

Quote:
The fact is that I know FAR more about WotLK rogue mechanics than you, as do those that wrote the guide. You are in no position to judge.

Really? As I see it, exactly one mechanic has changed, optimal weapon speed. You give yourself far too much credit. I'm an arrogant sonofabitch, but at least I have the knowledge and track record to back it up. You seem to have simply decided that you're both smarter than I am and know more about the class, based on one simple thing. All I've seen you do is sling insults, misrepresent the effect of a talent, and parrot what you read elsewhere. Where are you own contributions to the community?

Quote:
No, you don't. Just because you're good at newtonian physics doesn't mean you should use their principles to challenge quantum theory.

Nice metaphor, but completely irrelevant. The mechanics are by and large intact. The only change I've noticed was an incredibly simple one. A more accurate metaphor would be a mechanic who specializes in Fords deciding to work on a Lincoln.

Quote:
You haven't a @#%^ing clue what you're talking about - you don't even know you're meant to use a fast weapon in MH.

So because I was out of the loop for a single thing, that means I don't know anything? Sure, whatever makes you feel better. If they'd removed the attack table mechanic, changed how attack power factored in, modified the basic formula to calculate ability damage or things like that, the yeah, I'd agree that my knowledge was useless now. But that's not the case. Why is it so important for you to feel like you're smarter than I am, or know more about the class than me?

Quote:
Ironically, your criticism applies to your own guide. The race section could be made much, much shorter, but instead it provides the information with very little analysis.

Compare the length of that section to the length of the rest of the guide, and then consider the importance of the section and the likelihood that somebody reading the guide would even care about that part. Also, somebody who can't decide what race to pick isn't going to give two sh*ts about an in depth analysis. The section is there basically only for completeness's sake. Grasp at more straws please.

Edited, Nov 25th 2008 3:32pm by Nooblestick
#143 Nov 25 2008 at 2:30 PM Rating: Default
I find your credentials laughable at best. I didn't really want to insult it, as everyone here seems so fond of it, but your guide is trash, no one gives a sh*t about your theorycrafting on mutilate - I seriously doubt it was the first and I don't give a sh*t if it was. WoW mathematics is not complex and is far below my, and anyone who passed GCSE Maths, capability. I don't see why you take such pride in it.

One last thing, though: 1.3 as opposed to 1.8 is an increase of 38.5% in FA energy from white attacks. This is not a non factor - it is a reasonably significant contributing factor.

I understand what I am "parroting", and anything else is superfluous. You cannot accomplish this simple little task, and as such I'd rather not so slander time as to speak or give words with you. Even if watching you act butt hurt is amusing.

33.33 at 1.8
46.15 at 1.3

40 % crit

= 13.33 crits
= 18.46 cits

= 26.66 energy
= 36.92 energy

SND

= 17.33
= 23.99

= 34.66
= 47.98

13.32 difference * 6 = 80 extra energy over 6 minutes ignoring other haste effects such as WF.



Edited, Nov 25th 2008 4:38pm by Kavekk
#144 Dec 02 2008 at 10:04 PM Rating: Default
Back from the past. not sure why. But I just checked your spec for your toon Korz (THEO) and you have improved eviscerate, which is something u never mentioned in previous posts. How funny is that? You totally ignored it.

Damit, I knew I should have listen to myself, I mean its a game, you can play it any way you want. But I knew I should have put more points in improved eviscerate. I felt something was missing. Either way, I still love the game and you can respec any time you like.

I really dont want this to turn into a spam fest or an ulgy rant. BUT

Just thought I'd mention this error. Improved Evis is a must!

Adder

_________

75% of rogues used to be Sub.

The guy that writes that article is a moron. Combat as the new raiding spec?

Laughable. Mutilate trashes combat.

Stop going to wowinsider for your info; it's a horrible website.
----------------------------
Theophany, Theorycraft Rockstar.
Quote:

Edited, Dec 3rd 2008 1:11am by adderdancer
#145 Dec 03 2008 at 2:23 AM Rating: Excellent
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You're probably looking at a leveling build (Muti-Prep) in which mobs die too quickly to Envenom them.
#146 Dec 03 2008 at 3:17 PM Rating: Good
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TherionSaysWhat wrote:
You're probably looking at a leveling build (Muti-Prep) in which mobs die too quickly to Envenom them.

Ding ding ding, we have a winner!
#147 Dec 04 2008 at 5:19 PM Rating: Default
I have one question about the Pve Mutilate build on OP. First 5 go into DW spec or Malice? I'm being a mut rogue on my horde and combat on my alliance. Though my alli toon will be sub once I hit Outlands. I just play my horde in the morning and alli in afternoon. I have to admit. Horde is really fun :D. But I'm gonna level as mutilate. Had been thinking all night. No better way to get used to using daggers then going that route early. Thanks
#148 Dec 04 2008 at 6:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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Souliken wrote:
I have one question about the Pve Mutilate build on OP. First 5 go into DW spec or Malice? I'm being a mut rogue on my horde and combat on my alliance. Though my alli toon will be sub once I hit Outlands. I just play my horde in the morning and alli in afternoon. I have to admit. Horde is really fun :D. But I'm gonna level as mutilate. Had been thinking all night. No better way to get used to using daggers then going that route early. Thanks

You're not going to be able to spec mut until 50. You should play combat swords up until that point.

Edit: in order of preference, though, for a mut spec: Malice > Relentless > DW Spec for leveling.

Edited, Dec 4th 2008 6:04pm by Theophany
#149 Dec 05 2008 at 6:30 PM Rating: Default
Who uses Envenom? Its a useless spec..
#150 Dec 05 2008 at 6:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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13,048 posts
adderdancer wrote:
Who uses Envenom? Its a useless spec..

Pretty much everyone in PvE.
#151 Dec 08 2008 at 6:15 PM Rating: Good
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http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t37112-t7_25_rogue_gear_discussion/

Link to the EJ thread that basically tells you the best pieces in each slot.
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