This is my first time doing any real extensive theorycrafting like this with empirical data. So if my math is off, please correct me...
This is done using a 3.6sec 2h weapon that deals 1k dmg per white hit on the test target. No crits or other abilities are added in the equations to get rid of the RNG factor. The test is done over 10min to the target. This is to give some insight on what Blood and Unholy will do to your white dmg.
10 minute
Blood Aura= 15% dmg
3.6sec swing timer
166.66667swings
1000dmg/swing * 15% = 1150dmg/swing
191666.6705 total dmg
319.444dps
Unholy Aura= 15% haste
~3.06sec swing timer
196.07843swings
1000dmg/swing
196078.43 total dps
326.797dps
As you can see, Unholy Aura just barely passes up Blood. Throw in abilites like Plague Strike and Blood strike- Blood will undoubtedly surpass it in terms of damage. The only weird thing about it is determining how many more abilites you will be able to spam over that 10min period. The reduced GCD is good, but it still doesn't make up for the 15% overall dmg from Blood. The thing about it is the rune cooldowns limit the long term effectiveness of the Unholy aura buff. GCD wont matter when you're sitting around waiting for that blood and unholy rune to pop up. But if we throw in that ability Necrosis ( i believe that's the correct one) that does an extra 25% shadow dmg to melee strikes...
Blood Aura test= 239583.339total dmg (399.306dps)
Unholy Aura test= 245098.038 total dmg (408.497dps)
Keep in mind this is all done without using ANY abilities other than presences. Maybe some of you can add to the testing by throwing in diseases and strikes to determine more of a number determining the dps. The only thing that will help out Unholy is the GCD, which for a DK is not good for dps. You might get off a few more strikes or something in that span of time but nothing to write home about. Maybe in PvP after you stacked up diseases, you switch to Unholy presence and do a burst combo of = Icy Touch-Blood Strike-Obliterate-Death Strike-Death Coil or something like that(That should use all of your Runes) to make that reduced GCD be of some use. But as it stands, Unholy Presence is really weak in both PvE and PvP. Maybe if Unholy reduced rune cooldowns or something else but it doesn't add anything worthwhile. Maybe a beta tester (Theo) can add more insight on it. But Blood is the way to go all around from what I can tell. The threat factor might be a problem because of the healing factor... but there are talents that reduce your threat in Blood presence.
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Blood vs. Unholy... presence that is..Follow
Blood may indeed be higher DPS once you add skills in, but one thing that I haven't been able to test yet is whether Blood Presence healing counts for threat.
If it does, Unholy will be the one to use.
If it does, Unholy will be the one to use.
You don't need to be a beta tester to understand the value of 1sec GCD vs 1.5sec GCD for pvp...
Situation 1 - Rogue vs Druid
Rogue have a 1second GCD.
0.00 Druid Shifts out of bear and start casting Cyclone
0.1 Rogue hit the Druid with Hemo.
1.1 Rogue Kick, Cyclone is interupted.
Situation 2 - Warrior vs Druid
0.00 Druid Shifts out of bear and start casting Cyclone
0.1 Warrior hit Druid with MS
1.5 Warrior get Cycloned.
Fully aware it's a bad example, the Warrior most likely get a mace stun off the MS ;P
The '.1' time here, shows a rather common occurance - someone who misjudged when the druid would cyclone and hits him with a damage dealing move rather then a kick/pummel.
The thing is, the Rogue has time to recover from this. A warrior/shaman/whatever - doesn't. And I can bet you any warrior worth his stuns wishes he had a 1 sec GCD in Arena.
In short, it's good in pvp, because it allows you to react faster.
Situation 1 - Rogue vs Druid
Rogue have a 1second GCD.
0.00 Druid Shifts out of bear and start casting Cyclone
0.1 Rogue hit the Druid with Hemo.
1.1 Rogue Kick, Cyclone is interupted.
Situation 2 - Warrior vs Druid
0.00 Druid Shifts out of bear and start casting Cyclone
0.1 Warrior hit Druid with MS
1.5 Warrior get Cycloned.
Fully aware it's a bad example, the Warrior most likely get a mace stun off the MS ;P
The '.1' time here, shows a rather common occurance - someone who misjudged when the druid would cyclone and hits him with a damage dealing move rather then a kick/pummel.
The thing is, the Rogue has time to recover from this. A warrior/shaman/whatever - doesn't. And I can bet you any warrior worth his stuns wishes he had a 1 sec GCD in Arena.
In short, it's good in pvp, because it allows you to react faster.
Quote:
Fully aware it's a bad example, the Warrior most likely get a mace stun off the MS ;P
lawl. sadly true.
im really hoping they remove all "procced" stun effects from talents one day. impact, blackout, both mace stuns, imp conc shot....everything. get rid of em. give the classes tools in their place to compensate for the lack of control from those procced effects. i sure as hell would feel a lot better if i knew i had a reliable way of stunning someone for a few seconds every 20s or so, instead of spamming hammy when pummel is on CD, hoping for a damn mace stun.
Edited, Aug 1st 2008 7:26pm by Quor
Quor wrote:
Quote:
Fully aware it's a bad example, the Warrior most likely get a mace stun off the MS ;P
lawl. sadly true.
im really hoping they remove all "procced" stun effects from talents one day. impact, blackout, both mace stuns, imp conc shot....everything. get rid of em. give the classes tools in their place to compensate for the lack of control from those procced effects. i sure as hell would feel a lot better if i knew i had a reliable way of stunning someone for a few seconds every 20s or so, instead of spamming hammy when pummel is on CD, hoping for a damn mace stun.
Edited, Aug 1st 2008 7:26pm by Quor
I think if I ever leave my current guild, my new guild would be <SKILLED MACE STUN BRO>.
Just because it would be funny as **** in arena watching a warrior mace stun me and knowing he was probably looking at my guild tag and patting himself on the back.
2 posts
Blood wins over unholy in dmg all the time and so far i havnt found any extra treath made by that 2% heal tanks can build agro like mad now unlike before
in unholy u are out of runes for like 6secs after each rotation higher burst maybe but blood is higher dmg and more constant.
in unholy u are out of runes for like 6secs after each rotation higher burst maybe but blood is higher dmg and more constant.
Well as Theo correctly asserts, the 1.0sec GCD isnt for PvE, it is designed to assist PvP. In DK PvP (at least, in Arena) you don't generally burn all your Runes all the time. Most DKs like to use Death Rune abilities or keep at least a Frost Rune ready for some quick CC.
This argument neglects the auxilliary benefits of both Presences, specifically increased movement speed and self-healing. In PvP the self-heal really is cack, it isnt noticeable unless you're hitting like a train (which in PvP with Resilience, you arent) so it is (by design) without merit. Conversely, the 15% movement buff is essential in PvP but mostly worthless in PvE.
This fact alone would seem to cement Unholy as the PvP Presence, and Blood as the DPS one. Blood can, and should, be the primary Presence for all DPS DKs.
This argument neglects the auxilliary benefits of both Presences, specifically increased movement speed and self-healing. In PvP the self-heal really is cack, it isnt noticeable unless you're hitting like a train (which in PvP with Resilience, you arent) so it is (by design) without merit. Conversely, the 15% movement buff is essential in PvP but mostly worthless in PvE.
This fact alone would seem to cement Unholy as the PvP Presence, and Blood as the DPS one. Blood can, and should, be the primary Presence for all DPS DKs.
I'll be the underdog and say that blood isn't always better then unholy in pve.
you see, it is entirely dependant on the amount of gcd's your spec used.
A frost spec, will need the following amount of gcd's ;
1 - Icy touch
2 - Plague strike
3 - howling blast/obliterate
4 - blood strike
5 - blood strike
Currently, we have used up all our rune abilities, which already costs us 5x1.5 = 7.5 seconds. (which is biased, as we're assuming a perfect latency and no human error)
As far as I know, the runes refresh after 8 seconds, which mean that the first frost rune is almost refreshed.
However, we haven't used any runic power dumps.
With the rotation posted above, you'll likely be a few rp short of 80, which means that unlike we're lucky with a freezing fog proc ( will elaborate on that later)
we can only use frost strike once.
Still....that takes us another gcd.
With frost strike, that means we're at 9 seconds already.
At this point your first frost rune is refreshed (or like 0.1 seconds away from it)
So, theoretically, you could, manage to pull off the rotation without wasting any rune refresh time (and without letting your runic power cap out, which is bad)
Yet, we're forgetting one crucial talent, which has the potential to ***** the whole rotation over.
If this procs, you end up with one additional gcd, while you already have one nearly refreshed rune, not to mention the fact that the second unholy rune is nearly refreshed as well.
And that, ladies and gentleman, is why I conclude that blood isn't always the best presence.
Edited, Oct 5th 2008 4:22pm by NeroSeekerOfSouls
you see, it is entirely dependant on the amount of gcd's your spec used.
A frost spec, will need the following amount of gcd's ;
1 - Icy touch
2 - Plague strike
3 - howling blast/obliterate
4 - blood strike
5 - blood strike
Currently, we have used up all our rune abilities, which already costs us 5x1.5 = 7.5 seconds. (which is biased, as we're assuming a perfect latency and no human error)
As far as I know, the runes refresh after 8 seconds, which mean that the first frost rune is almost refreshed.
However, we haven't used any runic power dumps.
With the rotation posted above, you'll likely be a few rp short of 80, which means that unlike we're lucky with a freezing fog proc ( will elaborate on that later)
we can only use frost strike once.
Still....that takes us another gcd.
With frost strike, that means we're at 9 seconds already.
At this point your first frost rune is refreshed (or like 0.1 seconds away from it)
So, theoretically, you could, manage to pull off the rotation without wasting any rune refresh time (and without letting your runic power cap out, which is bad)
Yet, we're forgetting one crucial talent, which has the potential to ***** the whole rotation over.
Quote:
your icy touch has a 10% chance to cause your next howling blast to cost no runes.
If this procs, you end up with one additional gcd, while you already have one nearly refreshed rune, not to mention the fact that the second unholy rune is nearly refreshed as well.
And that, ladies and gentleman, is why I conclude that blood isn't always the best presence.
Edited, Oct 5th 2008 4:22pm by NeroSeekerOfSouls
3 posts
Most beta testers are saying that Blood and Frost builds get better PvE results from unholy presence. For blood this is because every other cycle is a uses 4 heart strikes which leaves practically no free time to runic power dump. Frost has also has issues dumping power.
Ironically unholy builds are reportedly doing better with blood presence as they have more free GCDs. Especially when using a rotation that includes SS x3
Ironically unholy builds are reportedly doing better with blood presence as they have more free GCDs. Especially when using a rotation that includes SS x3
From personal experience if I'm unholy, I typically run blood aura. The damage increase is really nice and I'm able to use my abilities and they come back off CD about the time I'm ready to use them.
Now when I am blood spec, I run unholy aura. The main reason is, when I run blood aura I typically run up too much RP and don't have a chance to deathcoil it all away. When I'm unholy, the GCD is reduced and I can get rid of all my RP quickly (including sudden doom procs) before my run cooldowns are back up and I'm able to build the RP back up again.
I don't really care for frost spec, but from what I understand frost usually ends up going unholy presence as well.
Now when I am blood spec, I run unholy aura. The main reason is, when I run blood aura I typically run up too much RP and don't have a chance to deathcoil it all away. When I'm unholy, the GCD is reduced and I can get rid of all my RP quickly (including sudden doom procs) before my run cooldowns are back up and I'm able to build the RP back up again.
I don't really care for frost spec, but from what I understand frost usually ends up going unholy presence as well.
NexionSE wrote:
Blood wins over unholy in dmg all the time and so far i havnt found any extra treath made by that 2% heal tanks can build agro like mad now unlike before
in unholy u are out of runes for like 6secs after each rotation higher burst maybe but blood is higher dmg and more constant.
in unholy u are out of runes for like 6secs after each rotation higher burst maybe but blood is higher dmg and more constant.
I like how you ended all that with a period.
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
Runes are 10 second CD (I believe, unless it was nerfed to 8).
Also, the goal isn't simply whether 15% haste or 15% damage is more for auto-attacks (it should be *roughly* the same), but whether you need those extra GCD's, and what benefit they would provide you. Assuming you use 5 attacks, that leaves 2.5 seconds with blood presence (1-2 GCD's, depending if you wanna wait or clip) and 5 seconds in unholy presense (5 GCD's). Chances are that 5 attacks will generate 55 runic power, what can you do with that? A frost DK can hit frost strike 5 times (or DC), while a blood DK can hit DC or DRW, and an unholy DK can DC, Gargoyle, or UB (for damage, obviously, there's other things you can do too). In frost spec, I would assume unholy would be better, unless you just wanted to blast a DC and then keep going.
Also, unholy has 15% movement speed. So if you spec into unholy aura (not presence) then you don't get that anymore just by being in the presence, so you may wanna go with blood. Whereas if you spec into blood aura, you don't get the healing that you would in holy. That is of course if the non-damage effects of the presence matter to you.
To correct your math, 15% haste would result in ~3.13 attack speed on a 3.6 weapon. What you did is 3.6 * (1 - 0.15) when haste actually works like 3.6 / 1.15. Redoing your comparison:
3.13 swing timer
191.69239 swings
1000 dmg/swing
191,692.39 total dmg
319.487 DPS
Compare to your 319.444 DPS on blood presence, the DPS difference is negligable due to the rounding I did.
Also, the goal isn't simply whether 15% haste or 15% damage is more for auto-attacks (it should be *roughly* the same), but whether you need those extra GCD's, and what benefit they would provide you. Assuming you use 5 attacks, that leaves 2.5 seconds with blood presence (1-2 GCD's, depending if you wanna wait or clip) and 5 seconds in unholy presense (5 GCD's). Chances are that 5 attacks will generate 55 runic power, what can you do with that? A frost DK can hit frost strike 5 times (or DC), while a blood DK can hit DC or DRW, and an unholy DK can DC, Gargoyle, or UB (for damage, obviously, there's other things you can do too). In frost spec, I would assume unholy would be better, unless you just wanted to blast a DC and then keep going.
Also, unholy has 15% movement speed. So if you spec into unholy aura (not presence) then you don't get that anymore just by being in the presence, so you may wanna go with blood. Whereas if you spec into blood aura, you don't get the healing that you would in holy. That is of course if the non-damage effects of the presence matter to you.
To correct your math, 15% haste would result in ~3.13 attack speed on a 3.6 weapon. What you did is 3.6 * (1 - 0.15) when haste actually works like 3.6 / 1.15. Redoing your comparison:
3.13 swing timer
191.69239 swings
1000 dmg/swing
191,692.39 total dmg
319.487 DPS
Compare to your 319.444 DPS on blood presence, the DPS difference is negligable due to the rounding I did.
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