Ok, I've read the posts on Hit Rating vs. Attack Power (I especially loved Theo's).
I apologize for being somewhat of a moron, but I'd like to learn here. Flame away if you want, but here's my question:
If I have 2000 Attack Power but I have only 90 Hit Rating... will my dps be more than if I had 1900 Attack Power with a 200 Hit Rating? (Talking Instance/Raid dps here only).
And don't say "use the f@cking spreadsheet"... I'm too drunk right now and hate that thing.
Thanks.
Edited, Jul 28th 2008 11:47pm by Stillpist
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Hit vs. Attack PowerFollow
Yes you would do more dps with those stats
No your dps would be less than if you had 1900 ap and 200 hit.
Every 1 point in hit is worth more than every 2 attack power as combat. At 1900AP and 200hit, you'd do (extremely roughly) the same damage as 90 hit and 2100-2150AP.
EDIT: Reading comprehension is good.
Edited, Jul 29th 2008 1:09am by lsfreak
EDIT: Reading comprehension is good.
Edited, Jul 29th 2008 1:09am by lsfreak
Trading AP for Hit is one thing. But every successful hit is another chance of a Combat Potency or poison proc (etc.) as well, which increase overall DPS. Balanced stats are best when possible.
Now go use the f@cking spreadsheet. ;)
Now go use the f@cking spreadsheet. ;)
Use the ******* spreadsheet.
200 Hit and 1900AP would do a ton more DPS than 2000AP and 90 Hit.
200 Hit and 1900AP would do a ton more DPS than 2000AP and 90 Hit.
Ok, we have conflicting views... and for whatever reason, my spreadsheet won't load.
Theo?
I'd like to know if someone has actually tested this and/or knows for sure?
Thanks for all comments and suggestions.
Theo?
I'd like to know if someone has actually tested this and/or knows for sure?
Thanks for all comments and suggestions.
I'm assuming set 1 (2000AP) is your PvP gear? And set 2 is your PvE gear? I can tell you from my experience you'll have more dmg with the 200 hit, +20 food buff then 90 hit. You'll be missing on bosses left and right, and based on the fact that in combat swords most of your damage is coming from autoattack, missing a bunch isn't going to help. We've had about 1400 discussions on this. Read the stickies, search the forums.
Man I wish someone had power to lock some of these threads.
Man I wish someone had power to lock some of these threads.
Its not about "testing" its just common sense with the numbers we are given.
First how are you getting that 100 extra AP? is it from agi or is it from pure AP?
14 AP = 1 DPS,
but, if you have 14 AGI, your also getting crit off of it (i think its 1/40% crit per agi, so you get 14/40% crit). Thats more than 1 DPS and its based on the speed of your weapons.
Now, hit rating lets you hit more obviously. Until you hit the trash cap its the single biggest dps increasing stat. Heres why. More hits = higher crit cap. more hits = more poison procs. more hits = more combat potency. more hits ultimately means more finishers, which a combat rogue with points in assassination would get energy back for. Rogue hits lead to more hits, more damage.
Hit rating in PVE is the biggest DPS stat. AP and AGI will only linearly increase damage somewhere in the realm of 14 points per DPS for AP and maybe 11 per dps for agi, but hit rating will offer a much higher gain on dps per hit rating.
side note, if your in PVP/arena, you might want to aim for the higher AP.
Edited, Jul 30th 2008 5:05pm by EnthalpyTheBurninator
First how are you getting that 100 extra AP? is it from agi or is it from pure AP?
14 AP = 1 DPS,
but, if you have 14 AGI, your also getting crit off of it (i think its 1/40% crit per agi, so you get 14/40% crit). Thats more than 1 DPS and its based on the speed of your weapons.
Now, hit rating lets you hit more obviously. Until you hit the trash cap its the single biggest dps increasing stat. Heres why. More hits = higher crit cap. more hits = more poison procs. more hits = more combat potency. more hits ultimately means more finishers, which a combat rogue with points in assassination would get energy back for. Rogue hits lead to more hits, more damage.
Hit rating in PVE is the biggest DPS stat. AP and AGI will only linearly increase damage somewhere in the realm of 14 points per DPS for AP and maybe 11 per dps for agi, but hit rating will offer a much higher gain on dps per hit rating.
side note, if your in PVP/arena, you might want to aim for the higher AP.
Edited, Jul 30th 2008 5:05pm by EnthalpyTheBurninator
1 agi > 2 ap.
Edited, Jul 30th 2008 11:26pm by Kavekk
Edited, Jul 30th 2008 11:26pm by Kavekk
EnthalpyTheBurninator wrote:
Hit rating in PVE is the biggest DPS stat.
Actually, expertise is the biggest DPS stat.
Ok thanks for all the replies... I did search the threads, but nothing was this exact.
Thanks again.
Thanks again.
EnthalpyTheBurninator wrote:
More hits = more crits.
If you seriously think so, sepuku is the only way out.
By the way, here is a table I calculated once for myself (tri-hemo swords, T5-level)
Shows very straightforward 1 : 2.5 ratio between hit and AP.
Expertise 1.37 AEP 2.84 AP 0.78 DPS Hit 1.20 AEP 2.50 AP 0.68 DPS Agility 1.00 AEP 2.08 AP 0.57 DPS Haste 0.99 AEP 2.05 AP 0.56 DPS Crit 0.78 AEP 1.62 AP 0.44 DPS Strength 0.53 AEP 1.10 AP 0.30 DPS AP 0.48 AEP 1.00 AP 0.27 DPS -Armor 0.14 AEP 0.29 AP 0.08 DPS
Edit - this is raid-buffed, for PvE use...
Edited, Jul 30th 2008 11:26am by Wytryszek
Wytryszek wrote:
EnthalpyTheBurninator wrote:
More hits = more crits.
If you seriously think so, sepuku is the only way out.
By the way, here is a table I calculated once for myself (tri-hemo swords, T5-level)
Shows very straightforward 1 : 2.5 ratio between hit and AP.
Expertise 1.37 AEP 2.84 AP 0.78 DPS Hit 1.20 AEP 2.50 AP 0.68 DPS Agility 1.00 AEP 2.08 AP 0.57 DPS Haste 0.99 AEP 2.05 AP 0.56 DPS Crit 0.78 AEP 1.62 AP 0.44 DPS Strength 0.53 AEP 1.10 AP 0.30 DPS AP 0.48 AEP 1.00 AP 0.27 DPS -Armor 0.14 AEP 0.29 AP 0.08 DPS
Edit - this is raid-buffed, for PvE use...
Edited, Jul 30th 2008 11:26am by Wytryszek
Actually, more hit gives a larger crit cap.
So yes, technically, he's right and you're a moron who doesn't know mechanics.
Can you describe a sensible situation when your crit is capped? The only one I can think of is tanking a lvl73 boss.
Quote:
EnthalpyTheBurninator wrote:
Hit rating in PVE is the biggest DPS stat.
Quote:
Actually, expertise is the biggest DPS stat. Smiley: wink
Mobs cant parry from behind but they can dodge. So this stat does help with DPS.
Changing what i wrote before.
Quote:
EnthalpyTheBurninator wrote:
More hits = more crits.
More hits = more crits.
Forget what i said here. Crits get put on the combat table and will be a flat %, hitting doesnt effect critting, but an enemy's dodge + block + miss + parry should be able to push them off. Hit will raise the crit cap though.
forgot about the combat table 1 roll rule
Edited, Jul 30th 2008 5:03pm by EnthalpyTheBurninator
Edited, Jul 30th 2008 5:03pm by EnthalpyTheBurninator
Edited, Jul 30th 2008 5:04pm by EnthalpyTheBurninator
Edited, Jul 30th 2008 5:15pm by EnthalpyTheBurninator
EnthalpyTheBurninator wrote:
[quote]
Hit is not normalized. Its a flat chance applied onto each attack. With 5% crit rating, if you make 100 attacks in a minute and only 75 of those land, you get 3.75 crits a minute. If you increase your hit rating to get 100 attacks with 100 landing, you get 5 per minute. Basically crit% is the frequency of crits landed and its not dependent on time. If you can either land more hits, or attack faster, you'll have more crits in a given amount of time, and get the extra DPS from the fact that those are hits. This is the same logic thats applied to combat potency procs, its a flat % thats not on cooldown and not normalized, thats why we use fast offhand weapons, because the more hits that land in a given period of time, the more procs we get.
Landing a successful hit is king on rogue.
Edited, Jul 30th 2008 10:26am by EnthalpyTheBurninator
Edited, Jul 30th 2008 10:28am by EnthalpyTheBurninator
Hit is not normalized. Its a flat chance applied onto each attack. With 5% crit rating, if you make 100 attacks in a minute and only 75 of those land, you get 3.75 crits a minute. If you increase your hit rating to get 100 attacks with 100 landing, you get 5 per minute. Basically crit% is the frequency of crits landed and its not dependent on time. If you can either land more hits, or attack faster, you'll have more crits in a given amount of time, and get the extra DPS from the fact that those are hits. This is the same logic thats applied to combat potency procs, its a flat % thats not on cooldown and not normalized, thats why we use fast offhand weapons, because the more hits that land in a given period of time, the more procs we get.
Landing a successful hit is king on rogue.
Edited, Jul 30th 2008 10:26am by EnthalpyTheBurninator
Edited, Jul 30th 2008 10:28am by EnthalpyTheBurninator
Single roll attack table.
If you have 5% crit and you attack 100 times, by rights you should get 5 crits, no matter what your hit% is.
Learn about game mechanics before trying to spout off about them.
RPZip had a story to make this clear to people that was brought up in another identical thread to this, just can't remember it.
The hit table is like a pie chart, in this case 5% would be crit, 25% miss, the rest taken by dodge/parry and the other hit categories (glancing, i.e.). If I wasn't slammed at work I'd make one in excel and use my awesome photoshop skills and make it pretty.
The hit table is like a pie chart, in this case 5% would be crit, 25% miss, the rest taken by dodge/parry and the other hit categories (glancing, i.e.). If I wasn't slammed at work I'd make one in excel and use my awesome photoshop skills and make it pretty.
Wytryszek wrote:
Can you describe a sensible situation when your crit is capped? The only one I can think of is tanking a lvl73 boss.
I've gotten pretty close with buffs up; crit cap without capped expertise is 64.5% for a combat rogue, even less for a retarded tri-spec hemo rogue like yourself.
Quote:
Single roll attack table.
If you have 5% crit and you attack 100 times, by rights you should get 5 crits, no matter what your hit% is.
Learn about game mechanics before trying to spout off about them.
If you have 5% crit and you attack 100 times, by rights you should get 5 crits, no matter what your hit% is.
Learn about game mechanics before trying to spout off about them.
This is my mistake. I'll replace what i wrote previously. Crits can be pushed off if there is too much combined dodge block miss or parry though.
Either way, knocking dodge block parry miss off the combat table is going to add more damage.
Edited, Jul 30th 2008 5:02pm by EnthalpyTheBurninator
Edited, Jul 30th 2008 5:07pm by EnthalpyTheBurninator
Quote:
Yes, if your not standing behind a mob so you cant be dodged or parried. 90% of the time you should be somewhere outside of the mob's parry/dodge range. If you dont have a decent parry reduction from your expertise, you dont want to be in front to prevent your tank from getting extra hits from parries.
But all in all, yea expertise always comes out higher on AEP, supposing you make use of it.
But all in all, yea expertise always comes out higher on AEP, supposing you make use of it.
Mobs can dodge from behind. Point for point, expertise is the best stat for a raiding rogue until cap, followed by hit.
Ok, this helps even more. So basically, I'm SOL on the fact that most of my gear is pvp, with little to no hit rating. I've been slowly working on S3 gear, but it just takes a long time to get and my arena squads I ran with are gone now.
So what do I do... just slowly get badge pieces? If I sub out some of my red gems for hit gems, I'll be even worse off, right?
Thanks for the posts.
So what do I do... just slowly get badge pieces? If I sub out some of my red gems for hit gems, I'll be even worse off, right?
Thanks for the posts.
Stillpist wrote:
Ok, this helps even more. So basically, I'm SOL on the fact that most of my gear is pvp, with little to no hit rating. I've been slowly working on S3 gear, but it just takes a long time to get and my arena squads I ran with are gone now.
So what do I do... just slowly get badge pieces? If I sub out some of my red gems for hit gems, I'll be even worse off, right?
Thanks for the posts.
So what do I do... just slowly get badge pieces? If I sub out some of my red gems for hit gems, I'll be even worse off, right?
Thanks for the posts.
Bingo. I carry a full bags worth of PVE gear, and use a macro to switch instantly from pvp to pve (/equip itemname). Think I go from 1815AP/34%crit/118 hit to 2030AP/26.50%crit/321hit. I think this is easier than itemrack, which i wasn't impressed by. Have you gotten into a kara group yet? My thought would be to look at wowwiki.com and find out what instances give you 70 blue (read: Assasination set or midnight legguards, off the top of my head) to get a base PvE set formed. Remember, surefooted on your boots gives an extra 10 hit, and use your spicy hot talbuk for another 20.
ThomasMagnum wrote:
RPZip had a story to make this clear to people that was brought up in another identical thread to this, just can't remember it.
The hit table is like a pie chart, in this case 5% would be crit, 25% miss, the rest taken by dodge/parry and the other hit categories (glancing, i.e.). If I wasn't slammed at work I'd make one in excel and use my awesome photoshop skills and make it pretty.
The hit table is like a pie chart, in this case 5% would be crit, 25% miss, the rest taken by dodge/parry and the other hit categories (glancing, i.e.). If I wasn't slammed at work I'd make one in excel and use my awesome photoshop skills and make it pretty.
me wrote:
You're confusing the terms. Perhaps a story.
It's easier to think of Hit as what you see on the combat table after everything else is taken away. It gets seated last and nobody really likes it, so it gets no respect.
You start with a 28% chance to miss. Adding +hit will reduce this chance and leave more space for Hit events.
You start with (in this example) 30% crit. Crit isn't as important as Miss (or dodge, etc) but it still gets a seat at the table before Hit does. Giving yourself 30% Crit will give you 30 Crit events, but push 30 Hit events into the other room.
So, let's say you have +16% Hit (even numbers) and 30% Crit. It's time for dinner at the Combat Table household, and everyone runs into the kitchen.
Miss and Dodge are the babies of the family, so they get to sit first. Miss takes up 12 seats and Dodge takes up 3, for a total of 15 seats occupied. Crit comes in next and grabs a whole bunch of seats for him and his hoodlum friends - 30 more seats taken, for a total of 45.
And now they open the attic door and let Hit in, and he takes the remaining seats - 55 for him, adding up to 100.
But wait - the gear changes, and you gain another 1% crit. Miss doesn't have to leave; instead, one of the Hits gets to go cry in the corner and cut himself in the attic while Crit gets another seat. Now there's 15 Miss/Dodges, 31 Crits and 54 Hits.
It's easier to think of Hit as what you see on the combat table after everything else is taken away. It gets seated last and nobody really likes it, so it gets no respect.
You start with a 28% chance to miss. Adding +hit will reduce this chance and leave more space for Hit events.
You start with (in this example) 30% crit. Crit isn't as important as Miss (or dodge, etc) but it still gets a seat at the table before Hit does. Giving yourself 30% Crit will give you 30 Crit events, but push 30 Hit events into the other room.
So, let's say you have +16% Hit (even numbers) and 30% Crit. It's time for dinner at the Combat Table household, and everyone runs into the kitchen.
Miss and Dodge are the babies of the family, so they get to sit first. Miss takes up 12 seats and Dodge takes up 3, for a total of 15 seats occupied. Crit comes in next and grabs a whole bunch of seats for him and his hoodlum friends - 30 more seats taken, for a total of 45.
And now they open the attic door and let Hit in, and he takes the remaining seats - 55 for him, adding up to 100.
But wait - the gear changes, and you gain another 1% crit. Miss doesn't have to leave; instead, one of the Hits gets to go cry in the corner and cut himself in the attic while Crit gets another seat. Now there's 15 Miss/Dodges, 31 Crits and 54 Hits.
And wow at the misinformation in this thread. Mobs can dodge from behind and it's a one-roll attack table for autoattacks.
basically crit will push away regular hits. it moves hit down, so that some hit falls off the table. eventually you have no more room for crit. this is the hard crit cap.
however, hit rating will push the entire table up until miss is completely gone. this leaves more room to add crit. this is how you move around that crit cap.
btw check wowwiki.com and search for "Attack Table". its pretty good.
Edited, Jul 30th 2008 10:54pm by EnthalpyTheBurninator
however, hit rating will push the entire table up until miss is completely gone. this leaves more room to add crit. this is how you move around that crit cap.
btw check wowwiki.com and search for "Attack Table". its pretty good.
Edited, Jul 30th 2008 10:54pm by EnthalpyTheBurninator
So is Hit Table (WoW). I should know, I wrote it.
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