Huge changes incoming to the talent trees:Follow

although missile barrage does not just use fireball, but also frostbolt and arcane blast.

I spent quite a bit of time on elitist jerks last night. (Yes I do grok math when required). At this point in the progression of the trees deep fire badly ( 25% or so ) trails various arcane/fire arcane/frost specs on boss dps. Unless AoE becomes a central part of raiding we won't be going to raids with deep fire. To be fair with about 30 pages of recent theory crafting to absorb to fully understand the comparisons and what had already been dropped from the discussions, my synopsis may over look some of the builds discussed here. In any event if we are raiding and are going to get to play with the new deep fire talents, the fire tree are going to need further adjustments. This is all in flux of course and the trees change in relative strength as the Beta changes. So its hard to say where things will end up.

I'm assuming this is a PVP build since you have Blazing speed and Shatter Barrier. If that's true, then I'm wondering why you didn't take Burning determination and have full points in both Improved Fireball and Improved Frostbolt.

Is it me, or is fire going to have much more viability in pvp than in TBC?

Some of you might say "no ****" or " no way", but IMO it is going to be..

1.5 second pyro is going to get nerfed imo, even though mages can die in '3 seconds' or get 'healed fully' as i had read before. But you never know, I have a lot of times where i just want burn down a rouge when I'm 20% when hes chasing after me.

This might sound stupid, but if your good enough you can kite melee classes with Blast wave with the daze and knock back effect. Then if he gets back on you again, cast Dragons Breath then get some range and burn him down with the 5 seconds, which is a lot of time if you don't have any impairing effects on yourself. You can also deal some damage at the same time with Living bomb, you don't have to be standing still to use it, and it can be always good for a vanish removal.

Im going to try out fire for pvp, mainly for BGs and of course for fun.

The biggest item I see for the Burning Determination is push back resistance. Other than icy veins we have none. this give us a counter against spell push back. 10 secs is an eternity in BG's. If I have the ability to avoid spell interruption for 10 seconds, that's great.

Hmmm, i had assumed that interruption was going to include spell push back. Without that included it's kind of worthless for only 10 seconds.

do remember that there are items that reduce the duration of silence already in the game. combined with this talent a 2.5s silence would do very little to stop the mage from spamming instants for the next 10s. Opposing teams will have to use other ways of CCing the mage to reduce the impact of DR making the mage immune to silence earlier. It still leaves a gap for a mage to be shut down but at least the helplessness of getting spelllocked by a lock would be reduced.

I have no idea how much hp we'll have in wotlk and how much damage we have to expect, but I can tell only one thing: absorbing 3.3k damage with ice barrier several times during a fight (+ the bonus we get from SD) and the additional nova we get when our shield gets destroyed (also if disspelled?) is nothing I'd give away for a bunch of situationally good or decent firespells. And I'm sceptic if speccing 0/38/33 will make any sense at all.

While blizzard seems uncertain if fire will be good for PvP or not, I believe they are determined to make frost good.

But on to another topic:
Does anyone know for sure, if deep freeze will be usable against unfrozen targets, and just show immune when he is not frozen, and will hit when the target is frozen the instant the spell is finished? The spell would kinda suck big time if the target has to be frozen first, since it leaves too much room for a blink/shapeshift/whatever. with elenova I'd assume a delay of 2 seconds until deep freeze can hit, with own nova 3 seconds + THIS IS TOO MUCH, at lest in serious PvP. Then It'd be again a tool, that is totally op versus some classes , cuz they can't free of nova, and useless against some classes if they know what they're doing.

Obviously lol, frost was always the Pvp tree anyway :P But fire could be used in BGs and would dominate more than frost.I just wish they could make fire and frost the pvp trees but each with different play styles but equal, and arcane tree for raiding and pve. But i know its too late now :P

Well pre-tbc fire was for PvP and later fire-based elemental speccs tbh.

But anyways, thats what I thought too. In solo-PvP the changes to fire, especially to BW and DB, plus the slightly increased critchance might be a fun change to deep frost PvP, but as it is now, It won't take over in arena by the looks of it. With living bomb to detect rogues and the PvP orientated changes to fire it might even be decent in solo PvP. Also seeing how some parts of BG PvP are just not at all based ona fight player vs player, tinking about the roflmao-effect of 0/51/20 and a group of unprepared allies waiting at galv to start.

That had a lot to do with the fact that fire spec was useless in MC though. Or at least I think it had, I was even more of a mage-noob back then than I am now.

0/51/20... does that include shatter? Errrr, living bomb can't crit can it? O_o

Which wouldn't even matter, since DB BW and lamestrike can, and by that time the nova is long since gone. I could imagine living bomb as nice addition when aoe-ambushing groups of players or to detect rogue with the nice range... just keep the buff up always, and you'll eventually discover him :p

I didn't even start discussing what was the raid specc, when I say fire was for PvP, then I didn't exclude it for PvE, right? I just know for a fact, that a lot of people played elemental and fire in PvP back then. But since pre-tbc wasnt so accomplishment-orientated people specced for whatever suited them most anyways. You only needed to get loads of HKs to rank up, and that is something you can do in any specc you want in group PvP.

I didn't really mention anywhere that frost was for PvE, so don't interprete things I didn't say, just cuz loads of people did, cuz they didn't know Frost was only for raids since the fire-immunitys and resists in MC and BWL....



And fire wasn't good for PvP, cuz it was useless in MC -.- that doesn't even make sense... it was good, cuz it was successful in PvP.