the plot thickens... :: Free Realms

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#1 Jul 24 2008 at 3:08 PM Rating: Good

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koraa wrote:

The goal is for Arms or Fury Warrior to be able to tank nearly as well as a Prot Warrior in terms of threat generation. Where the Prot Warrior is unique is in his defensive utility and playstyle.

In terms of Blessing of Salvation and Defiance, we're turning away from requiring talents and spells to grant threat and instead just "bake" it into the existing threat generation abilities.

link

just as i get settled into the idea of leveling prot as my guild's tank *****, they gotta go and do this.

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#2 Jul 25 2008 at 5:13 AM Rating: Good

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lol - the key point you seem to have missed was:

Quote:

in terms of threat generation

An Arms or Fury warrior will get 1 shotted if they do any real tanking. They don't have the health or defensive/avoidance skills that Prot does. So don't worry about that.

What this does mean (from what I understand) is that they won't be quite as gimped when they off-tank something because they can't hold aggro from uber-DPS. However, they are still much more squishy than a real tank.

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#3 Jul 25 2008 at 10:56 AM Rating: Good

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YJMark wrote:

lol - the key point you seem to have missed was:

Quote:

in terms of threat generation

An Arms or Fury warrior will get 1 shotted if they do any real tanking. They don't have the health or defensive/avoidance skills that Prot does. So don't worry about that.

What this does mean (from what I understand) is that they won't be quite as gimped when they off-tank something because they can't hold aggro from uber-DPS. However, they are still much more squishy than a real tank.

More precisely, it means Arms and Fury Warriors can easily tank 5-mans, even in heroics. How well it'll work in raids remains to be seen but unless they massively amp the mitigation effects Prot has now (and in the preview WotLK talents) it won't be a big deal for them to offtank.

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#4 Jul 25 2008 at 11:12 AM Rating: Good

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More precisely, it means Arms and Fury Warriors can easily tank 5-mans, even in heroics.

RP - Heroics? You really think so? I always viewed that the biggest reason that Arms and Fury can't tank heroics now is because they can't take a beating like Prot. Heroics give very hard beatings to tanks (relative to regular 5-mans). Of course, if they are over-geared, then it doesn't matter.

I'm just curious on your thoughts here.

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#5 Jul 25 2008 at 1:40 PM Rating: Decent

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YJMark wrote:

An Arms or Fury warrior will get 1 shotted if they do any real tanking. They don't have the health or defensive/avoidance skills that Prot does. So don't worry about that.

What this does mean (from what I understand) is that they won't be quite as gimped when they off-tank something because they can't hold aggro from uber-DPS. However, they are still much more squishy than a real tank.

the last time i checked, what i got out of the prot tree in terms of extra mitigation and health is +5% shield block, +10% armor and +5% stamina. for a tank in T5/badge gear this can equate to having ~15% block, ~16k armor and <17k health in a dps spec wearing tank gear. there are no additions to avoidance in the prot tree.

the real benefits of the prot tree are additional threat, improved rage economy, oh **** button (last stand), a few seconds more of shield wall and spell damage mitigation. please get your facts straight.

i hardly think that all of these things that a dps warrior is lacking "will get [them] 1 shotted if they do any real tanking".

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#6 Jul 25 2008 at 2:01 PM Rating: Decent

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if the dps war has a shield they are more than capable of not dieing on most things. the shield makes up a huge amount of armor (and depending on your build as much as 10-15% mitigation).
however, if any spec warrior is using tanking gear (defense stam avoidance armor blockvalue etc), they will be more than capable of tanking 1-2 targets easily.
the rage efficiency is a huge part of prot warrior though. 9 rage devestates are ridiculously low. 13 rage Tclaps. etc. Its what lets me tank 4-6 things in 5mans and more then 2 things with relative ease in more difficult situations.

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#7 Jul 25 2008 at 2:07 PM Rating: Decent

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EnthalpyTheBurninator wrote:

the shield makes up a huge amount of armor (and depending on your build as much as 10-15% mitigation).

it's a lot more than that. Aldori Legacy Defender has 5.2k armor, and it makes up just under 30% of my total armor.

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#8 Jul 25 2008 at 5:22 PM Rating: Decent

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Arms

* Bloodletting has been renamed to Improved Rend once again and doesn't increase the amount of damage caused by Bloodbath anymore.
* Fixed a typo in Second Wind, Stun or Immobilize effects generate 10/20 rage. (Old version ... 100/200 ^^)

Protection

* Shield Specialization now gives you a chance to generate 1 rage when a block occurs. (Old version : 2 Rage)

had something to add about the op, forgot what it was.

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#9 Jul 26 2008 at 7:06 AM Rating: Good

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YJMark wrote:

Quote:

More precisely, it means Arms and Fury Warriors can easily tank 5-mans, even in heroics.

RP - Heroics? You really think so? I always viewed that the biggest reason that Arms and Fury can't tank heroics now is because they can't take a beating like Prot. Heroics give very hard beatings to tanks (relative to regular 5-mans). Of course, if they are over-geared, then it doesn't matter.

I'm just curious on your thoughts here.

The problem has always been more threat generation than it is actual risk of dying. The real troublesome mobs in Heroics tend to be the ones that come in pairs and hit like absolute trucks; you often don't have the threat generation to keep them off a healer spam-healing you (they also like to stun or knockdown, which doesn't exactly help). If a DPS Warrior has about the same threat generation as a Prot Warrior then they'll be fine.

Of course you'll need to be slightly better geared to survive than a Prot Warrior would, or need a slightly better healer, but tank death historically has usually been more a problem of mob control than anything else. If you're taking a beating and the healer has to stop to do something else, like run away from another mob, you're in real trouble. If they can just stand there, well... you might be okay.

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#10 Aug 01 2008 at 12:11 PM Rating: Decent

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a few new blue views stolen from mmo-champeen:

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Warrior

* Defense is usually a pretty easy stat to max out with gear, whereas you can't really do that on dodge. We saw some tanks actually spec out of Anticipation at the T6 or so level because it just stops being as useful as your gear improves. Hit is another stat we don't really like to hit in talent trees, since it's possible to hit the cap with gear alone. (Source)
* The problem with the old Shield Block was it was never a choice. It was available so often, and always so useful, that you could just about put a brick on the key you use for Shield Block. We're trying to get Shield Block to feel more like a mini-Shield Wall. Use it when Something Bad is about to happen. We're not trying to nerf it -- we're trying to make it more fun. (Source)
* We have to be careful with this talent (Stalwart Protector) because prot warriors are going to generate a lot more rage than before, just because their dps is going to be higher. A lot of tanking gear comes with strength now. Strength is a good stat, and even before the shield block change, it was probably the best +threat stat you have. I sort of feel that for too long we have all emphasized mitigation as the primary role of a tank, when in reality it's only half the job. Doing more dps will let tanks be more fun when not-tanking, and for warriors, might make a lot of rage starvation issues go away. (Source)
* Devastate includes Sunder Armor as part of its effect. Any benefit to Sunder will apply. (Source)

just in case you missed it...

Quote:

Strength is a good stat, and even before the shield block change, it was probably the best +threat stat you have.

hopefully he's talking about 3.x and not 2.x lol

also read somewhere that a blue said that crushes are gone for mobs 1-3 levels higher than you, but still in for 4+ levels higher.

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#11 Aug 01 2008 at 3:55 PM Rating: Decent

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nvm this.

Edited, Aug 1st 2008 7:56pm by Wisedeath

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#12 Aug 04 2008 at 1:55 PM Rating: Decent

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straight from the champeen's mouth:

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Warriors need to be better AE tanks without eclipsing paladins. Thunder Clap is a good place to address that problem. If Shockwave becomes the ultimate tanking ability than we're concerned nobody would want to run a 5-player dungeon without it. That's not the goal. We don't want to hand out Consecrate to every tank, but we want you to be able to tank groups better.

I didn't want to imply that all tanking gear would be strength and stamina with no other stats. But compared to what you are used to, expect more strength and expect strength to benefit you more. Let me also clarify a couple of previous comments. I can't always spend as much effort analyzing every word I type as the community ends up doing, or else I would never get to post. For that I apologize.

I understand the value of defense and Anticipation, though you must agree that volumes have been written about how well defense scales and its value at various points in progression. Tanks have debated about whether it was always worth 5/5 in Anticipation, even if they ultimately concluded that it is. That was the point I garbled.

I also acknowledge that hit and expertise are great threat stats, and expertise can offer a little mitigation to boot. The point I was trying to make is that putting strength on tanking gear solves a lot of problems in the game -- it can improve dps and threat (and mitigation if we build the talents correctly) without us having to worry about whether plate-wearing tanks are already capped in some other stat. Defense means something different for warriors and paladins than it does for death knights, and unless we build different gear for each class we can't count on defense as always being desirable above everything else. The last thing we want is for some classes to feel that they don't have access to the gear to do their jobs properly. Make sense?

Sorry for any confusion. It's never going to bother me when players point out errors I may make in my posting or that we make in our design decisions. It makes the game better. The fact remains that we want warriors to keep tanking. If they aren't there yet, we'll get them there. (Source)

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#13 Aug 09 2008 at 8:45 AM Rating: Decent

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more changes:

Quote:

Arms

* Bloodletting (Tier 1) changed to 2 ranks and increases bleed damage from Rend and Bloodbath by 25/50%.
* Impale is now a Tier 3 talent and is required for Deep Wounds.
* Deep Wounds (Tier 3) changed to make your critical strikes cause the opponent to bleed, dealing 16/32/48% of your melee weapon's average damage over 6 seconds. (Previously was 20/40/60% over 12 secs)
* Blood Frenzy and Unrelenting Assault swapped positions in the Arms tree. Blood Frenzy is now Tier 9. Unrelenting Assault is now Tier 7.

Protection

* Improved Shield Wall now reduces the cooldown by 30/60 secs. (Previously increased duration by 3/5 secs)

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