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imp EA vs. ruptureFollow
i've been reading EJ's warrior 2hand endgame PvE DPS thread and finally got caught up through the whole thing. throughout the thread, some posters mention having improved expose armor up in their raids. i also gathered from these posts that a rogue would have to give up a Rupture cycle and keep imp. EA instead. i plugged in one of my guild rogue's stats into Maxdps.com (Darthbane) and Rupture dps came out to 30 dps given a 4s/5r cycle (w/e that means. soz i never rolled a rogue.). then i plugged in stats from myself and another dps warrior and the dps increase from the extra 475 armor penetration was worth ~30 dps. i'll look more into it when i have the time but i was wondering if someone could point me to more detailed discussions on the matter. i'm trying to get at least one rogue in the raid to spec imp. EA, but i need better numbers and a more detailed discussion to back myself up.
Only if you don't have a Warrior tank would it ever be worth it.
those same posters did state that warrior tanks would be unable to use Devastate as Imp. EA is a "more powerful spell", but the numbers that i saw indicated that the TPS loss was marginal. from my personal experience, i do tend to agree, as i already don't have a problem doing 900-1000 TPS even just on trash, and i only use Devastate when everything else is on cooldown. keep in mind also that Druid tank TPS would increase as a result.
so, is there a discussion anywhere specifically on this subject?
so, is there a discussion anywhere specifically on this subject?
This is with a primarily melee/hunter-oriented raid with tanks that can keep threat on T6+ geared fury warriors without using sunder.
It can work, but it's in very, very special circumstances in SWP.
BTW, maxdps.com is an AWFUL site.
It can work, but it's in very, very special circumstances in SWP.
BTW, maxdps.com is an AWFUL site.
Wow, you manage to keep EA armor up with a warrior tank without him losing aggro? Have to say that's not something I see daily. Correct me if I'm wrong, but last time I checked the warrior gets a "A more powerful spell is already active" message when he tries to sunder with EA up. No idea about devastate. It seems useless to me with a warrior tank, especially since his sunder armor also lowers armor... I don't have numbers but I expect the actual difference between 5/5 sunder and 5/5 imp EA to be pretty slim.
Being a completly non-raiding ShS spec in raids, imp EA worked for me with our druid tank tho.
Being a completly non-raiding ShS spec in raids, imp EA worked for me with our druid tank tho.
Mozared wrote:
Wow, you manage to keep EA armor up with a warrior tank without him losing aggro? Have to say that's not something I see daily. Correct me if I'm wrong, but last time I checked the warrior gets a "A more powerful spell is already active" message when he tries to sunder with EA up. No idea about devastate. It seems useless to me with a warrior tank, especially since his sunder armor also lowers armor... I don't have numbers but I expect the actual difference between 5/5 sunder and 5/5 imp EA to be pretty slim.
Being a completly non-raiding ShS spec in raids, imp EA worked for me with our druid tank tho.
Being a completly non-raiding ShS spec in raids, imp EA worked for me with our druid tank tho.
Uh, sunders are a minimal threat boost at best in T6.
Using EA over Sunders is about a 80 TPS loss for a Warrior tank, which is pretty significant (equivalent as much threat as you generate off doing ~160 DPS as a Rogue). It may or may not be a variable for Brut because with unlimited Rage Warriors can probably stay above everything, but it's definitely not a minimal boost.
Mozared wrote:
I don't have numbers but I expect the actual difference between 5/5 sunder and 5/5 imp EA to be pretty slim.
Being a completly non-raiding ShS spec in raids, imp EA worked for me with our druid tank tho.
Being a completly non-raiding ShS spec in raids, imp EA worked for me with our druid tank tho.
5 sunders is 520*5 = 2600 armor reduction.
imp EA is 3075 armor reduction (1.5*2050).
@ Theo -
yes i know Maxdps is awful, but i'm too dumb to use the spreadsheets yet =X
Quote:
Uh, sunders are a minimal threat boost at best in T6.
Was referring more to the peeps above you though, I suspect a lot of things to be fairly different in the really high-end stuff.
Quote:
5 sunders is 520*5 = 2600 armor reduction.
imp EA is 3075 armor reduction (1.5*2050).
imp EA is 3075 armor reduction (1.5*2050).
Aye thanks... I think now we've reached the math part where the 3 questions are
Can the tank miss the sunder armor threat?
How many non-spell using DPS'ers are their in the group?
Does 30 sec of their extra DPS outdamage one 5 point rupture?
Hmm, though I wouldn't say so this makes it seem quite likely that imp EA is a big boost indeed.
the issue w/sunders,
on bosses its not as much of an issue. it is the best threat per second for the first 5, but you can just start with shield slam > revenge and use more heroic strikes to try and make up for it. On trash mobs, you lose a big threat booster that doesnt have a cooldown. This is very important as the typical warrior threat cycle is shield slam > revenge > devestate X2 (or whatever utility abilities need to be used) and if a mob runs off on you and your cooldowns are down at the moment, you cant always wait 4-6 seconds for shield slam to ready again.
As for the value in using it. if theres no warrior tank use it. if there is, consider this. your losing a 5PT rupture for what, a 400 armor reduction bonus? The warrior tank would probably be putting sunders up normally so it would be 5/5 w/out you needing to burn your rupture cycles.
personally i wouldnt consider it, because all in all its probably less dps.
TL;DR version
non war tanks = ok, war tanks = dont use on trash, ask to use on bosses.
Edited, Jul 24th 2008 11:27am by EnthalpyTheBurninator
on bosses its not as much of an issue. it is the best threat per second for the first 5, but you can just start with shield slam > revenge and use more heroic strikes to try and make up for it. On trash mobs, you lose a big threat booster that doesnt have a cooldown. This is very important as the typical warrior threat cycle is shield slam > revenge > devestate X2 (or whatever utility abilities need to be used) and if a mob runs off on you and your cooldowns are down at the moment, you cant always wait 4-6 seconds for shield slam to ready again.
As for the value in using it. if theres no warrior tank use it. if there is, consider this. your losing a 5PT rupture for what, a 400 armor reduction bonus? The warrior tank would probably be putting sunders up normally so it would be 5/5 w/out you needing to burn your rupture cycles.
personally i wouldnt consider it, because all in all its probably less dps.
TL;DR version
non war tanks = ok, war tanks = dont use on trash, ask to use on bosses.
Edited, Jul 24th 2008 11:27am by EnthalpyTheBurninator
Quote:
As for the value in using it. if theres no warrior tank use it. if there is, consider this. your losing a 5PT rupture for what, a 400 armor reduction bonus? The warrior tank would probably be putting sunders up normally so it would be 5/5 w/out you needing to burn your rupture cycles.
personally i wouldnt consider it, because all in all its probably less dps.
personally i wouldnt consider it, because all in all its probably less dps.
That's what I was just working out myself in the post above you. But technically... Imagine there's 5 melee DPS classes hitting the target in addition to the tank. Say Rupture deals 2500 damage. Imp EA lasts 30 seconds. That means imp EA is better than rupture IF the extra damage that those 5 melee DPS classes do in 30 seconds > 2500 damage. And that condition seems quite likely to be true to me.
Edited, Jul 24th 2008 7:04pm by Mozared
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