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3:2 isn't even good for 7/20/34 anymore. Somewhere in the SV raiding thread on EJ (near the end) some guy did an analysis of 20/41 and 7/20/34 with both 2.8 and 3.0 speed weapons, and the best rotation is 1:1.4 (1:1.5 with an extra steady instead of an arcane or multi). 7/20/34 is the best spec unhasted, and with drums and haste potions, while 20/41 is better with bloodlust and rapid fire, though with any combination of the three, 7/20/34 is generally better.
36 posts
So I've gotten my agility to 722 unbuffed (still need to change some gems, but cant find any on AH atm) and ive gone to the 0/20/41 build with readiness, but im still falling abit behind on raid dps. Dont get me wrong my 4 man dps im still doing fine, but In 25 mans im bottoming out the top 5. Any ideas of anything i could change? (armory at top of post) I am Using the shot rotations off of the pre kara sticky (not the bm ones).
Edit: Shoot just realized that the only people ahead of me were a Bm hunter, A MM hunter and 1 or 2 rogues (pretty well geared rogues too) Lol think i might have abit of trouble out dpsing them, but still questions above still stand.
Edited, Aug 12th 2008 1:15am by tehawsomeguy
Edit: Shoot just realized that the only people ahead of me were a Bm hunter, A MM hunter and 1 or 2 rogues (pretty well geared rogues too) Lol think i might have abit of trouble out dpsing them, but still questions above still stand.
Edited, Aug 12th 2008 1:15am by tehawsomeguy
You already said you're looking for more gems, and other than that, all you really need is a better glove enchant. As for the damage meters, you're not supposed to top them as survival. In our guild, we have a hunter that switches between survival and BM, depending on the makeup of the raid. His gear is better than mine, so he beats me at BM, but when he goes survival, I do significantly better than him. On my last time in Hyjal, I did over 400 dps more than him on Rage. Nothing against his skill; survival is just more of a utility slot. At our gear level, at least; I guess I'm not too familiar with T6 content and crazy-*** Sunwell gear.
To be honest, in T4 content raids SV doesn't perform all that well. They're *very* gear dependant, and because of the low quality of gear avaliable in T4 content, they can get beaten out quite easily.
Some weapon tips: Stellaris x2 is a good entry-level pair of weapons. If you can get your hands on Trollbane, do it. It is one of the highest +Agi weapons out there (Beaten out, if I remember correctly, only Sunwell-level loot). However, you should not neglect your other stats in favor of pure agility.
I personally roll with Dagger of Bad Mojo x2 because they offer a crapton of Agi, plus a crapton of ArP.
On your Necklace of the Deep, see if you can spring for 10 Agi gems each. In terms of pure Agility potential, it is the best Necklace out there. Also, for your legs, I'd reccomend getting the Ap/Crit enchant. Sure, 10 Agi would increase the attack power of your EW debuff, but it's only effective if you bring a crapton of melee DPS to the raid.
It gives you 10 Agi which, after buffs, comes out to a total of 10 * 1.15 * 1.1 = 12.65 Agi (Assuming Kings). This means that each melee DPS receives 3.1625 AP. Now assuming you have a full melee group, plus 3 tanks, that is a raid-wide AP increase of about 25. Thus you can see that a 50 AP/10crit leggings would be much more beneficial towards raid-wide DPS.
Enchant wise, scope out your ranged weapon. If you don't want to blow 500g+ on a crit scope, at least get a +damage scope. Also note your gem choices. You don't *need* to fill out a piece of armor to get the gem bonus. As SV, you should be able to hit the hit-cap through just gear (The helm enchant helps with this, I see you're lacking one). I'd suggest just gemming enough so your meta works, and sticking 10 Agi gems in the rest.
Anyways, good luck!
Some weapon tips: Stellaris x2 is a good entry-level pair of weapons. If you can get your hands on Trollbane, do it. It is one of the highest +Agi weapons out there (Beaten out, if I remember correctly, only Sunwell-level loot). However, you should not neglect your other stats in favor of pure agility.
I personally roll with Dagger of Bad Mojo x2 because they offer a crapton of Agi, plus a crapton of ArP.
On your Necklace of the Deep, see if you can spring for 10 Agi gems each. In terms of pure Agility potential, it is the best Necklace out there. Also, for your legs, I'd reccomend getting the Ap/Crit enchant. Sure, 10 Agi would increase the attack power of your EW debuff, but it's only effective if you bring a crapton of melee DPS to the raid.
It gives you 10 Agi which, after buffs, comes out to a total of 10 * 1.15 * 1.1 = 12.65 Agi (Assuming Kings). This means that each melee DPS receives 3.1625 AP. Now assuming you have a full melee group, plus 3 tanks, that is a raid-wide AP increase of about 25. Thus you can see that a 50 AP/10crit leggings would be much more beneficial towards raid-wide DPS.
Enchant wise, scope out your ranged weapon. If you don't want to blow 500g+ on a crit scope, at least get a +damage scope. Also note your gem choices. You don't *need* to fill out a piece of armor to get the gem bonus. As SV, you should be able to hit the hit-cap through just gear (The helm enchant helps with this, I see you're lacking one). I'd suggest just gemming enough so your meta works, and sticking 10 Agi gems in the rest.
Anyways, good luck!
So funny. All of you tell these poor guys to grab the badge Xbow which is sans Agility. While the 2 pieces of 100 badge gear carries nearly 100 Agility (91 to be exact PRE gemming/chanting) + haste and hit.
And saying that SV in T4 is not that good is damn near retarded. Expose Weakness is, quite frankly, the best raid buff you can have up after Bloodlust (which only affects one party) and Curse of Elements. And in Karazhan, Gruuls, Magtheridon, the clock is usually against you and the buff that adds 25% damage to physical ranged and melee damage for the whole raid makes most fights so much easier its ridiculous.
Go SV and focus on 2 things: 1) 700 unbuffed Agility. 2) 35% crit chance.
Edited, Aug 12th 2008 6:21am by DarkRein
And saying that SV in T4 is not that good is damn near retarded. Expose Weakness is, quite frankly, the best raid buff you can have up after Bloodlust (which only affects one party) and Curse of Elements. And in Karazhan, Gruuls, Magtheridon, the clock is usually against you and the buff that adds 25% damage to physical ranged and melee damage for the whole raid makes most fights so much easier its ridiculous.
Go SV and focus on 2 things: 1) 700 unbuffed Agility. 2) 35% crit chance.
Edited, Aug 12th 2008 6:21am by DarkRein
Quote:
the buff that adds 25% damage to physical ranged and melee damage for the whole raid
The buff doesn't add an increase of 25% damage to physical DPS, it adds 25% of your Agility in AP. Considering that due to gear issues in T4 content, your Agility is really not all that high (Like around 6-700), that's only an increase of around 12-15 dps PER melee. (Assuming 14 ap = 1 dps) Considering that as a BM Hunter you'd be pulling around 100+ more DPS than Survival (And even that seems a bit low), that means that you'll need somewhere like 8-9 melee DPS just to make up for it.
In 25mans, considering tanks, that is entirely feasable. However, in Gruuls, melee has a tendancy to die fast like.
Quote:
So funny. All of you tell these poor guys to grab the badge Xbow which is sans Agility.
It's a common fallacy that a SV Hunter *needs* to have the maximum amount of Agility. The whole purpose of going SV is to increase RAID DPS. If you sacrifice too much of your own personal DPS, then you may bring down the overall raid DPS. On the other hand, if you focus entirely on your own DPS, then you may not be buffing the raid as well.
Zeromatter wrote:
Quote:
the buff that adds 25% damage to physical ranged and melee damage for the whole raid
The buff doesn't add an increase of 25% damage to physical DPS, it adds 25% of your Agility in AP. Considering that due to gear issues in T4 content, your Agility is really not all that high (Like around 6-700), that's only an increase of around 12-15 dps PER melee. (Assuming 14 ap = 1 dps) Considering that as a BM Hunter you'd be pulling around 100+ more DPS than Survival (And even that seems a bit low), that means that you'll need somewhere like 8-9 melee DPS just to make up for it.
In 25mans, considering tanks, that is entirely feasable. However, in Gruuls, melee has a tendancy to die fast like.
Quote:
So funny. All of you tell these poor guys to grab the badge Xbow which is sans Agility.
It's a common fallacy that a SV Hunter *needs* to have the maximum amount of Agility. The whole purpose of going SV is to increase RAID DPS. If you sacrifice too much of your own personal DPS, then you may bring down the overall raid DPS. On the other hand, if you focus entirely on your own DPS, then you may not be buffing the raid as well.
You know, I'm pretty sure this dude just covered about everything I was going to or might have said.
BM hunters like EW just as much as melee DPSers do..
SV requires great gear and still drops your DPS hard. Right now, I'm only SV because recent upgrades dropped my hit. I had to get two hit gems just to pass 95.
Still, 950 AGI in a raid. 860 from an elixir, scroll, and food. Plenty of raid AP for the group I normally go with. But then, most of it goes wasted as none of the BM hunters pass me. I am not supposed to be first or second DPS in TK as SV. *sigh*
Oh, and I want to ask. Am I doing anything wrong here? Other than the shoulders, I mean. Those are garbage.
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Gorgonnash&n=Sysloasler
SV requires great gear and still drops your DPS hard. Right now, I'm only SV because recent upgrades dropped my hit. I had to get two hit gems just to pass 95.
Still, 950 AGI in a raid. 860 from an elixir, scroll, and food. Plenty of raid AP for the group I normally go with. But then, most of it goes wasted as none of the BM hunters pass me. I am not supposed to be first or second DPS in TK as SV. *sigh*
Oh, and I want to ask. Am I doing anything wrong here? Other than the shoulders, I mean. Those are garbage.
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Gorgonnash&n=Sysloasler
Zeromatter wrote:
Quote:
the buff that adds 25% damage to physical ranged and melee damage for the whole raid
The buff doesn't add an increase of 25% damage to physical DPS, it adds 25% of your Agility in AP. Considering that due to gear issues in T4 content, your Agility is really not all that high (Like around 6-700), that's only an increase of around 12-15 dps PER melee. (Assuming 14 ap = 1 dps) Considering that as a BM Hunter you'd be pulling around 100+ more DPS than Survival (And even that seems a bit low), that means that you'll need somewhere like 8-9 melee DPS just to make up for it.
In 25mans, considering tanks, that is entirely feasable. However, in Gruuls, melee has a tendancy to die fast like.
Quote:
So funny. All of you tell these poor guys to grab the badge Xbow which is sans Agility.
It's a common fallacy that a SV Hunter *needs* to have the maximum amount of Agility. The whole purpose of going SV is to increase RAID DPS. If you sacrifice too much of your own personal DPS, then you may bring down the overall raid DPS. On the other hand, if you focus entirely on your own DPS, then you may not be buffing the raid as well.
Ah, you are right about the 25% AGI increase, but still if you are AGI maxed out (T4 level with buffs is around 800) thats close to 200 AP per physical damage dealer. For the entire raid.
In 25 mans, you ideally want kickers (rogues) - Enhance shamans (Blust) and one MM and at least one BM hunter. In most raids I setup we have 1.5 to 2.5 full groups of physical damage dealers, who if they die during Gruul are mentally retarded or your guild/pug is fail, thus the effect is quite nice and as SV/MM I tend to be in the top 3 dps wise plus whatever added dmg I'm tacking on the raid.
Again, that bow is a pile of sludge. Don't accept it if you don't want to, but the chest and legs are near T6 quality. Anyway have fun dpsing with the NBC emblem if thats what you want to do.
Quote:
n 25 mans, you ideally want kickers (rogues) - Enhance shamans (Blust) and one MM and at least one BM hunter. In most raids I setup we have 1.5 to 2.5 full groups of physical damage dealers, who if they die during Gruul are mentally retarded or your guild/pug is fail, thus the effect is quite nice and as SV/MM I tend to be in the top 3 dps wise plus whatever added dmg I'm tacking on the raid.
To be honest, I was thinking about my raid-group setup, which doesn't rely on heavily stacked melee/physical DPS groups. Granted, every situation is different, so thus I will concede this point to you. In T4 content, if you bring many melee/physical DPS, then SV may be more viable than BM.
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Again, that bow is a pile of sludge.
However, I will still fight you here. Let's take a look at comparing the crossbow of parrots to, oh, say something from T6 content: Leigonkiller (Drops off of Supremus, second boss of BT). Leigonkiller has the *most* agility that any one ranged weapon can get. (21) However, VS the Crossbow of Parrots, *I* lose 41 DPS. Please note that I am currently hit-capped, so the extra +hit on the crossbow is wasted for me. (In other words, if one is currently *not* hit capped, their DPS would increase even further)
Now let's look at Leigonkiller: It has 21 Agility, which translates to 26.565 Agi fully buffed. That is 6.64 AP to every phyisical DPS in the raid. Assuming 3 groups (15 people, including Tanks and whatnot), that is a total of 99.61 total AP to the raid, JUST from this bow. Divide that by 14 (14 AP = 1 DPS), and you get a total increase of 7.11 DPS.
tl;dr: Legionkiller vs Crossbow of Parrots: 7.11 DPS vs 41 DPS.
Now we're talking about T4 content here, not T6. But if said crossbow is better than T6 content, what makes you think you'll find anything in T4 content better than it? I'm not trying to start an e-fight or anything, I just don't want people to be misled by a false argument. The only reason someone shouldn't be using the Crossbow of Parrots is because it is so goddamn ugly, or they have much better. (Which, you know, starts happening at Archimonde.)
Edit: Crossbow != Bow, so racial talents do not factor in.
Edited, Aug 14th 2008 2:40pm by Zeromatter
Quote:
Divide that by 14 (14 AP = 1 DPS), and you get a total increase of 7.11 DPS.
Differs greatly depending on the type of classes you have in your raid. There's a calculator around here somewhere that shows you exactly how much your EW adds to a raid and it's based on the types of physical DPSer's as well as how much agility you have, and the uptime of EW on the raid boss.
dgallant wrote:
For me my ideal hit rating is at about 90-95.
why would your "ideal" hit rating be any different for others excepting draenei?
DarkRein wrote:
In 25 mans, you ideally want kickers (rogues) - Enhance shamans (Blust) and one MM and at least one BM hunter. In most raids I setup we have 1.5 to 2.5 full groups of physical damage dealers
Zeromatter wrote:
To be honest, I was thinking about my raid-group setup, which doesn't rely on heavily stacked melee/physical DPS groups. Granted, every situation is different, so thus I will concede this point to you. In T4 content, if you bring many melee/physical DPS, then SV may be more viable than BM.
Let's consolidate shall we? BM is purely for single target DPS. There's no question that yes the BM will do more personal DPS over an SV hunter. Having said that, the SV hunter is by far (assuming a heavier physical DPS output) the best Raid DPS you will ever find, hands down.
So you were both right in your own raids depending on group setups.
Firstly let's take a small look at some numbers. In a typical raid setting, let's say a normal BM hunter can do roughly 1500 DPS. A survival hunter "should" be around 1300 with the same amount of gear and stacked agility. Let's just assume we have the following physical DPS:
2 Rogues
2 BM Hunters (w/ pets)
1 SV Hunter (w/ pet)
1 Enhancement Shaman
1 DPS Warrior
1 Feral Druid
1 Ret Paladin
1 Prot Warrior
That's roughly 10 Physical Damage Classes (13 including pets). With the basic formula of 14 AP = 1 DPS across the board (even for pets), let's do some more quick math.
Survival Hunter
900 Agility
225 AP Gained from Expose Weakness
209 Raid DPS Gained
Since every class takes in AP differently depending on spec, you can even up this amount by quite a bit (about 2.5-3x). However just looking it over, the SV hunter just gained an additional 209 DPS (Raid DPS mind you). And it continues to stack as the SV hunter gains more agility. The more physical damagers you have, the more viable having an SV hunter in the raid will be. Let's take another look, same scenario this time add in one more physical DPS Class (just 1).
So 14 Physical Damage Classes (w/ pets included). Same Stats for the Survival Hunter.
900 Agility
225 AP Gained from EW
225 Raid DPS Gained
Do you see now how much more of a benefit the SV hunter can be given the right raid setup? 11 Physical DPS (w/ 3 Hunters) is the magic number where your AP gained from EW = exactly your DPS gained (EW / 14 = DPS x 14 Physical DPS).
DarkRein wrote:
and one MM and at least one BM hunter.
In all honesty there's no viable reason to bring an MM hunter along when they could be doing more damage using a BM spec. EW counts for the whole raid, and you're hindering your group by giving them a flat rate of 125 AP over the 3% increased damage buff (not to mention the increased damage from the pet) that a BM can offer. 2 BM's & 1 SV is optimal in a heavier physical DPS raid, never MM.
If you're going for group synergy, your "Hunter" group should have 1 Resto Shaman + 1 Feral Druid, stacked with the 3 hunters. Now the reason I say Resto Shaman over Enhancement is due to specs. Our personal Resto Shaman's spec into the Enhancement side for the imp. totems as well as a few other things. In fact there's no reason not to, given the raid setups we have and current talent choices available to the shaman class.
An Enhancement Shaman is better for the melee groups, adding additional AP to melee upon every crit, as well as keeping the totems closer to each of the melee class. Where as in a hunter group, an enhancement shaman has to constantly readjust their totems, or the hunters have to move even closer to the mobs, either way you're going to lose DPS with so much moving around. Now if the AP from Enhancement shamans was added to our RAP, then by all means, bring them over, but it's not, and is wasted in a hunter's group.
Our raids are all about group synergy and how to maximize the use of every option available in order to max DPS. We used to have a Shadow Priest in our "Hunter" group for the added Mana, then soon realized that in the higher end raiding, our healers really needed that mana over us, and that with Judgement of Wisdom + A resto shaman constantly giving out mana totems (not to mention Mana Tide) we were fine.
Quote:
Edit: What's the NBC emblem?
NBC.com - Top left corner, little peacock symbol with multiple colored feathers. Fits the description of the bow perfectly.
*Edit*
Added some junk for group synergy.
Edited, Aug 14th 2008 11:41am by Joobishwun
Calculating the benefit of additional AP by AP/14 = dps is a very bad approach.
It ignores armor, crit rate, special abilities and a lot of other things.
A better aproach is to guees / determine how much an additional point of attack power yields.
A good rule of thumb seems to be 0.3dps per additional AP.
A SV hunter will have somewhere between 1k and 1.3k agi when he is raiding 25man content. His EW debuff thus gives 250-325 AP to every melee DD.
Thus EW adds 75-100dps to every DD.
A BM hunter will do a few hundred dps more than a SV hunter. Furthermore a BM hunter has the 3% dmg to the party buff which also increases raid dps.
However EW is so good that it pays of when you have more than ~5 melee DDs in your raid group which most raid groups will have.
We almost always have a SV hunter in our raids and the DPS increase is substantial. Today we killed Brutallus for the first time without a SV hunter (first time we every ran without a SV hunter as I had to play a resto shaman. Yay for a new challenge!) and our melee DPS was noticably weaker than the weeks before (both improved hunters mark and EW where missing bringing our rogues down from their usual 2.2k dps to roughly 2k dps. The rest of the raid setup was the same as the last weeks.
It ignores armor, crit rate, special abilities and a lot of other things.
A better aproach is to guees / determine how much an additional point of attack power yields.
A good rule of thumb seems to be 0.3dps per additional AP.
A SV hunter will have somewhere between 1k and 1.3k agi when he is raiding 25man content. His EW debuff thus gives 250-325 AP to every melee DD.
Thus EW adds 75-100dps to every DD.
A BM hunter will do a few hundred dps more than a SV hunter. Furthermore a BM hunter has the 3% dmg to the party buff which also increases raid dps.
However EW is so good that it pays of when you have more than ~5 melee DDs in your raid group which most raid groups will have.
We almost always have a SV hunter in our raids and the DPS increase is substantial. Today we killed Brutallus for the first time without a SV hunter (first time we every ran without a SV hunter as I had to play a resto shaman. Yay for a new challenge!) and our melee DPS was noticably weaker than the weeks before (both improved hunters mark and EW where missing bringing our rogues down from their usual 2.2k dps to roughly 2k dps. The rest of the raid setup was the same as the last weeks.
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