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Night Elf priests gimped in raiding??Follow

#1 Jul 22 2008 at 10:17 AM Rating: Excellent
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First, let me state that I am not calling Night Elf priests gimped. This is a thread I found while browsing the Priest forums at the official WoW boards. (Yes, the o-boards can be icky, but there is still good information there.) Anyway, there is a sub-forum on ShadowPriest.Com for guild recruitment. About a week and a half ago, Method [EU-Sylvanas]posted there with the following:

Quote:
Requirements:
- Exceptional player in every aspect
- Planning to raid WotLK
- Not a nightelf

Concerning this last point:
Nightelf applications and trials are accepted. However, in case you pass trial and join method, I will expect you to reroll either human or dranei.



Quote:
Here is our reasoning:

Human: Desperate Prayer, Human Spirit
Dranei: Symbol of Hope, Inspiring Presence
Dwarf: Desperate Prayer
Nightelf: Err....

Why did I not fill in anything for nightelves?

You gave the answer yourself at the bottom of your post. Even though it [Starshards] increases personal dps, it decreases raid support. And raid support is the only reason a shadowpriest comes to a raid (I can say that, doing 1700dps on Brutallus, I am a support class, not dps). We did the math ourselves (like you just did) and I think we came to slightly higher numbers.
Starshards has another drawback on top of this: it takes a debuff slot.



There is more in the thread, but I didn't think it appropriate to copy/paste the whole thing.

http://www.shadowpriest.com/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=14705


Sooo, thoughts on the matter? Are racials the be all and end all for raiding? While I think any guild has the right to dictate the terms for their members, are people losing sight that WoW is still a game? Not really sure what my thoughts are on all of this, but I am curious to see what other community members think about this topic.

Oh, and here is the link to the thread on the O-Boards:

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=7903643841&sid=1


*edit*

Here is a link to Method's forum. Apparently they are a very high end raiding guild, so I guess I can understand the stringent requirements...but still.

http://method-guild.co.uk/portal/index.php?page=1

Edited, Jul 22nd 2008 2:19pm by Miskreant
#2 Jul 22 2008 at 12:51 PM Rating: Decent
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4,684 posts
I think that if you're denying people on their race your an effing moron, 'nuff said.
#3 Jul 22 2008 at 12:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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1,574 posts
Someone tell them if they're that obsessed with having the best of the best, the guild should reroll Horde. 5% extra health on your Tauren main tank beats the hell out of 10% more spirit on your healers.
#4 Jul 22 2008 at 1:29 PM Rating: Decent
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2,029 posts
This is a guild that is completely min-maxing their characters. And they have to - they've cleared Sunwell already, and are looking to blow through WotLK raiding too. They're looking for people who have maximized their characters to the point that, literally, they can't go any further - 1860dps is better than 1855, so they take hte one who can do 1860 and not the one who can do 1855.

Considering what tiny proportion of raiding guilds do that, for all intents and purposes race won't ever matter when you try and get into a guild, even if it's a hardcore raiding guild. The only guilds that have such strict requirements are ones shooting for world-first kills.

Also, /agree with emmitsvenson. Horde have the best non-pally tanks (tauren), the best hunters (orc), the best dps warriors (orc/troll), the best ret pallies, the best shammies (orc/troll), the best mages (troll), and the best warlocks (orc). The only thing Alliance really has on Horde is better rogues (human), better prot pallies (human), and better healing priests.

Edited, Jul 22nd 2008 4:40pm by lsfreak
#5 Jul 22 2008 at 7:10 PM Rating: Decent
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4,684 posts
Still though Isfreak... I know Nihilum would be hard to get in to, but do they really have the *races* of their chars all maxed out? O_o
#6REDACTED, Posted: Jul 22 2008 at 8:12 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) anyone who playes a game with that kind of intensity or dedication really needs to consider quitting wow for there own personal reasons.
#7 Jul 23 2008 at 4:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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679 posts
I would honestly be surprised if they weren't doing this. Racials are an important bonus available to players, especially when you're pushing for world first kills like method are. All the small things add up in these situations, especially when you're attempting kills without the benefit of farming gear for a long time.
#8 Jul 23 2008 at 4:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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4,074 posts
I can see their point if they're playing at a level where such things matter. I do think race is slightly more important for priests than other classes given the racial spells. Certainly if I were starting an Alliance priest with the view of raiding like that, I wouldn't choose a nelf.

Personally, I would never get within shouting distance of that kind of hardcore, but that's not the point.
#9 Jul 23 2008 at 7:16 AM Rating: Good
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1,574 posts
Slammerofkooter wrote:
anyone who playes a game with that kind of intensity or dedication really needs to consider quitting wow for there own personal reasons.


I’ll let Bobby Fischer know you disapprove. :)
#10 Jul 23 2008 at 9:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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19,369 posts
Mozared wrote:
I think that if you're denying people on their race your an effing moron, 'nuff said.


Racials make a difference. Small ones? Maybe but swimmers don't shave for nothing.

Two players of equal skill and different races are not equal. Guess which one is going to get the raid slot?




Mozared wrote:

Still though Isfreak... I know Nihilum would be hard to get in to, but do they really have the *races* of their chars all maxed out? O_o


They can have whatever requirements they want as long as they're not discriminating on RL race.

You see this is a top-end guild. They're trying to be first. You know it's the small differences that do make the difference. Look at the Olympics. Do you know what the difference between first and second place is? Mere seconds or even milliseconds. Why should they be looked at negatively because they have goals that are different than yours? Aren't you the one discriminating here?

You don't want to fit in with them and their vision? That's fine, but they have every right as you do to play the game how they want. Why should you get to set their requirements?






Slammerofkooter wrote:
anyone who playes a game with that kind of intensity or dedication really needs to consider quitting wow for there own personal reasons.

I always laugh at folks who take this game to that extreme.. not only is that not a healthy idea.. but seriously at lvl 80 all that work will be nothing. even when its new.. its a GAME!!!


the key to this game is to have fun and pass time.. if a guild askes that of there players than they can seriously @#%^ off.

and i would take a shadow priest who did 1k damage over a know it all pissant kid who did 1700 anyday.

Edited, Jul 23rd 2008 12:14am by Slammerofkooter



You should quit life. What do you mean it's not a healthy idea? WTF do you know? Basketball is just a game. Yet some people play it professionally. Does that mean it's unhealthy to have that kind of dedication? Absolutely not! Does that mean they can't have fun? Absolutely not! Who said you have to lose to have fun? Who said you can't play your best and still have fun? If a team wins the Superbowl does that mean next year all the work will be nothing? Is this guild not having fun and passing time? That was your definition of a game right? Who said they're not?

Those who say "it's just a game" don't know wtf they're talking about. Games are competitive. Some people don't find competition fun. That's fine. You play your casual game how you want but stop judging others' pass time just because their idea of fun differs from yours. It's like a football player saying "HAHAH basketLAWL, people who play that are stupid".


Quote:
and i would take a shadow priest who did 1k damage over a know it all pissant kid who did 1700 anyday.

I find this hypocritically funny. You argue that the guild is stupid for judging players (when they actually have a reason to) but here you judge hardcore players and label them without knowing them at all. I must have missed the guild requirement of being a pissant kid.

Your arguments are stupid and condescending. You, sir, are the discriminating dumbass, not the guild.






Is it a game? Yes it absolutely is. Is that a reason for mediocrity? Hell no!

Casual players making fun of hardcore players is just stupid. Claiming it's unhealthy is stupid as well. How is hardcore any different than the 9-5 desk jobs that so many people have? Unhealthy is when it affects your health and well being. You can play hardcore and stay healthy, just like you can play casual and stay unhealthy. And claiming people are losers because they spend 5-8-10-12 hours a day or whatever is stupid too. Who are you to judge how other's should spend their time? Some people are out of school and need something to do. Why is playing a game so bad? Are there better things to do? Perhaps, but it's not your position to make that call for me.

We don't have to agree on the same gameplay but we sure as hell should respect each other's. You being casual player does not make you any better of a person. Though blindly judging others definitely makes you a worse person.



This guild wants the best of the best. Racials can make a difference. If someone came along and proved that Night Elf priests were on-par or superior to other priests then I'm sure this guild would change their requirements. There absolutely is a best and worst race for each class. What's wrong with wanting the very best? As for the switch to horde comment, how do you know this guild's goal isn't to be the best alliance guild? If my goal was to be the best melee hunter then what kind of advice is 'roll a rogue'? It does nothing to help me reach my goal. Are my goals stupid? To some. To others it might be an inspiration or admiration.


This guild is judging on actual physical limitations. If that's so bad then why don't they let people in wheelchairs play in the NBA? You people are judging blindly and making wild claims. Why? Because their ideas differ from yours.

You might want to watch out for yourselves. There's a hippo crisis coming.








#11 Jul 23 2008 at 12:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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150 posts
teacake wrote:
Personally, I would never get within shouting distance of that kind of hardcore, but that's not the point.


Agreed.

Thanks all for your responses. It is always interesting to me to read other people's opinions.

Honestly, I have mixed feelings regarding the whole thing. I don't have that big of an interest in raiding, but I don't begrudge others the enjoyment they get from however they choose to spend their WoW time. I use WoW as a fun hobby and for escapism, so it is hard for me to relate to the stringent requirements of being in a serious raiding guild, but it isn't hard to see why they do it. I think Isfreak says it better here:

Isfreak wrote:
This is a guild that is completely min-maxing their characters. And they have to - they've cleared Sunwell already, and are looking to blow through WotLK raiding too. They're looking for people who have maximized their characters to the point that, literally, they can't go any further - 1860dps is better than 1855, so they take hte one who can do 1860 and not the one who can do 1855.




Slammerofkooter wrote:
the key to this game is to have fun and pass time.. if a guild askes that of there players than they can seriously @#%^ off.

and i would take a shadow priest who did 1k damage over a know it all pissant kid who did 1700 anyday.


Well, just for the sake of playing Devil's Advocate... ^_^

If someone enjoys being highly competitive about WoW, then that is their idea of having fun. If they enjoy raiding and being part of a guild that has commited to be the very best that they can how is their idea of fun less valid then yours? Believe me, I understand where you are coming from, I play WoW just to goof off. However, if I don't want other people dictating to me how I am supposed to enjoy myself then I can't very well turn around and tell people how I think they should play.

We all have different ideas of what fun is, we don't have to all agree with each other. :)

As for the 1700 DPS comment, I think you need to look at that as not him bragging about his "leet" dps, but more a comment on the fact that he is a support class with that level. I am sure he is outdone by several of the other classes but because shadow priests bring a lot of utility to the raid...that is why they are brought.

that guy from the recruitment thread wrote:
I can say that, doing 1700dps on Brutallus, I am a support class, not dps


MentalFrog wrote:
Racials make a difference. Small ones? Maybe but swimmers don't shave for nothing.

Two players of equal skill and different races are not equal. Guess which one is going to get the raid slot?


This is a very good point. If someone is very commited to doing the best job they can then they will take everything into consideration.




#12REDACTED, Posted: Jul 23 2008 at 12:29 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I don't and I'm not. There's live and let live, but that doesn't prohibit me from finding their ways downright stupid. WoW is a game, not a sport. The thing that bothers me is that those guilds drag along every guild who tries to raid, resulting in guilds with people claiming S2 is not good enough to run Kara with; in a way ruling out MY raiding options.
#13REDACTED, Posted: Jul 23 2008 at 3:19 PM, Rating: Unrated, (Expand Post) wow did your seriously just compare sitting in a chair for 20 hour out of the day to a professional sport that requires years of dedication and peak fitness levels?
#14 Jul 23 2008 at 4:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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150 posts


Oh, my bad, I didn't realize this was an angry angry thread where people are required to get angry angry. I thought this was a forum.


Quote:


Main Entry:
fo·rum
Pronunciation:
\ˈfȯr-əm\
Function:
noun
Inflected Form(s):
plural forums also fo·ra Listen to the pronunciation of fora \-ə\
Etymology:
Latin; akin to Latin foris outside, fores door — more at door
Date:
15th century

1 a: the marketplace or public place of an ancient Roman city forming the center of judicial and public business b: a public meeting place for open discussion c: a medium (as a newspaper or online service) of open discussion or expression of ideas2: a judicial body or assembly : court3 a: a public meeting or lecture involving audience discussion b: a program (as on radio or television) involving discussion of a problem usually by several authorities


Look, I didn't start this thread to have an argument, I started it as a topic of discussion. I thought it was something interesting to...oh, I don't know....discuss?

Edited, Jul 23rd 2008 8:36pm by Miskreant
#15 Jul 23 2008 at 5:18 PM Rating: Decent
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4,684 posts
The dark side of these forums... They're an oasis of information but people are ignorantly quick to misjudge you.
#16 Jul 23 2008 at 9:18 PM Rating: Good
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19,369 posts
Slammerofkooter wrote:
Quote:
You should quit life. What do you mean it's not a healthy idea? WTF do you know? Basketball is just a game. Yet some people play it professionally. Does that mean it's unhealthy to have that kind of dedication? Absolutely not! Does that mean they can't have fun? Absolutely not! Who said you have to lose to have fun? Who said you can't play your best and still have fun? If a team wins the Superbowl does that mean next year all the work will be nothing? Is this guild not having fun and passing time? That was your definition of a game right? Who said they're not?

Those who say "it's just a game" don't know wtf they're talking about. Games are competitive. Some people don't find competition fun. That's fine. You play your casual game how you want but stop judging others' pass time just because their idea of fun differs from yours. It's like a football player saying "HAHAH basketLAWL, people who play that are stupid".


wow did your seriously just compare sitting in a chair for 20 hour out of the day to a professional sport that requires years of dedication and peak fitness levels?

and yes i can BET that no member of that guild has fun. because if they have requirements like that then i can bet people get chewed the @#%^ out for ******** around/talking sh*t/anything else that would be considered fun other than having a 14 year old overweight kid yelling at the raid.

and if an adult with a job dedicates THAT much time to a game. then yes he does need to re-evaluate his life because holy sh*t.

so really you are a @#%^ing moron if you took offense to my post and the only reason you would is because you are one of the hardcore "MORE DOTS PLEASE!!!!" type raiders that waste there fat pathetic lives on this game only to have to start over years later. when your choking on your fat in your last moments on this earth i hope you look back and say "ya.. it was worth it"

so @#%^ off and dont ever call me out *****.

Edited, Jul 23rd 2008 7:19pm by Slammerofkooter


Did you have a legitimate argument or just more unfounded **** to spew?
#17 Jul 23 2008 at 9:29 PM Rating: Good
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19,369 posts
Slammerofkooter wrote:

wow did your seriously just compare sitting in a chair for 20 hour out of the day to a professional sport that requires years of dedication and peak fitness levels?


Damn right I did. Why is that a problem?


Slammerofkooter wrote:

and yes i can BET that no member of that guild has fun. because if they have requirements like that then i can bet people get chewed the @#%^ out for ******** around/talking sh*t/anything else that would be considered fun other than having a 14 year old overweight kid yelling at the raid.


Sure you can bet, doesn't mean you'll win. Oh and the 14 year old comment is an assumption. Care to stop getting so personal and actually stating facts instead of your **** poor beliefs?



Slammerofkooter wrote:

and if an adult with a job dedicates THAT much time to a game. then yes he does need to re-evaluate his life because holy sh*t.

People can do what they want. Who are you to judge?




Slammerofkooter wrote:

so really you are a @#%^ing moron if you took offense to my post and the only reason you would is because you are one of the hardcore "MORE DOTS PLEASE!!!!" type raiders that waste there fat pathetic lives on this game only to have to start over years later. when your choking on your fat in your last moments on this earth i hope you look back and say "ya.. it was worth it"


No offense but you seem to really be getting worked up over this. Did a hardcore raider rape you s a child? Again unwarranted unfounded immature personal attacks. Anything to back up your claims or you just full of hot air?


Slammerofkooter wrote:

so @#%^ off and dont ever call me out *****.


Why not? Your arguments are full of ****** assumptions and unwarranted discrimination towards other players. What you going to do about it, fÏ…ckslap?
#18REDACTED, Posted: Jul 24 2008 at 4:40 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) MentalFrog: my daddy is stronger than your daddy!!
#19 Jul 25 2008 at 10:01 PM Rating: Good
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19,369 posts
redbarronthesecond wrote:
MentalFrog: my daddy is stronger than your daddy!!

Slammerofkooter: Nuhhu, mine's way stronger!!

MentalFrog: My mum is a bigger **** that yours!!

Slammerofkooter: Nuhhu, mine is sluttier!!

MentalFrog: I bummed 12 8yr olds today!!

Slammerofkooter: I bummed 14!!

MentalFrog: I can jump further off this building!!

Slammerofkooter: No way, i can!!

**Splat**

**Splat**

Redbarronthesecond: **pisses on bodies, lights match, goes home happy**

Here is how many people care about your idiotic minded arguement caro-meter

Edited, Jul 24th 2008 9:01pm by redbarronthesecond


I don't care but I'm going to spend my afternoon trying to come up with something funny to state that I don't care. Oh yeah don't let me forget to include a dorky internet cliche.
#20REDACTED, Posted: Jul 26 2008 at 4:12 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) if you don't care you take off a saturday afternoon to try and come back with something?
#21 Jul 27 2008 at 7:21 AM Rating: Excellent
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381 posts
This suprises me exactly zero. No way would I keep my nelf priest if I was trying to raid. Really, simply look at the racials. Back in the day you were considered WTF retarded for rolling anything but a dwarf priest if you wanted to raid. Now everyone gets fear ward and I'm glad, but racials still matter.

I'm really happy with my Nelf priest. Sitting in shadowmeld on defense is pure win. Hard to focus what you can't see.
#22 Jul 27 2008 at 2:12 PM Rating: Good
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218 posts
If you want to be technical then yes, night elves are gimped in raiding. However the amount of guilds that min/max to this extreme is so small that most people will never have to deal with it. My guild's best two healers (before they retired) were both night elves and they could heal circles (no pun intended) around every other priest/druid/pally/shaman in the guild with relative ease.


It's a game, sure some people want to be the best in every possible aspect, but at the end of the day, it comes down to having fun, if your guild says you're no good because they don't like your racial, then find a new one. It's that simple.
#23 Jul 27 2008 at 5:33 PM Rating: Good
If this guild has progressed the furthest they can go in the game, then it's a guild many people will want to join to see that content, which means they have the right to be picky with whomever they choose.

And about this thread, I don't think I've ever seen so many Sub-defaulted posts on one thread before.
#24 Jul 27 2008 at 10:16 PM Rating: Good
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128 posts
Leave it to someone else to compare hardcore WoW to a professional athlete, but I dont laugh at the comparison. The argument that a hardcore "WoWer" doesnt have fun would be only your opinion since you are not one; but to say that the athlete who has spent 20 years of his life being yelled at by coaches to do another lap has fun all the time is questionable at best.

Let people do what they will. At the end of the day, if someone spent 10 hours a day playing wow as their hobby or 10 hours a day gardening what would be the difference? One would go blind and one would have bad skin=P Ok not to be so bleak but if they both were doing what made them most happy, who are we to judge?
#25REDACTED, Posted: Aug 01 2008 at 8:04 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Yes they do,
#26 Aug 01 2008 at 11:15 AM Rating: Decent
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19,369 posts
RAWDEAL wrote:
MentalFrog wrote:
Mozared wrote:
I think that if you're denying people on their race your an effing moron, 'nuff said.


Racials make a difference. Small ones? Maybe but swimmers don't shave for nothing.


Yes they do,
There are many tales about why legs get shaved by athletes but, in reality, there are only two genuine answers:

1:it’s way cool
2:the massage crew prefer it

There are some myths about shaving which are worth dispelling. Shaved legs really don’t make you go faster, either on the bike or in the swim. In fact, they might actually make you go slower in the swim because the hair can help streamline the water flowing over your legs. Otters and seals swim really quite well and they have lots of hair! However, you do "feel" the water more with shaved legs and that can help psychologically -- just don’t expect to shave seconds as well.

Some people go to extreme or create myths in WoW also, like the BOSS won't drop because of racial traits of a group. They can believed what they want (like some strange cult)and i respect that but i think it's f%^k up.


Be that as it may, racial differences aren't a myth but a fact. Are they different enough to warrant exclusion? Maybe. Maybe not. But they do make a difference.
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