Quick arena gear questionFollow

1. Loose is a word but means something else, you probably wanted to say lose :P


God damn it, my question about stat vs stat still hasn't been understood. Oh well, english ain't my natal language, might be my fault. What I wanted to know is this: Let's say one day a good PvE piece drops. So good it might be better than my current PvP one even for PvP porposes. Now HOW GOOD actually must it be to deserve a replace? I can't think at any way of explaining easier than that...


Well my record on this rogue is 1667 but then all I mew was warr/druid :(


Being the only DPSer in my team, killing someone faster than he can heal is more important. What good is too stun a target with 20% health, hoping I can kill it but I don't? Well THAT's a waste of stuns too and DMR.


Well if he doesn't give me a good reason, I won't consider him goddish or anything like it. He didn't even understand my second question from the first post :(

It still should be common sense, especially in your comp. If you read my PvP FAQ (specifically the part about rogue/priest), you'd see that offensive stats are better than defensive after you get to the hit cap, especially for this comp. It's pretty much the only comp where mut can work.

You should be able to tell if an item is better than a PvP item by where it comes from. If I get a piece of T6 that I can socket with AP, pre-Cheat Death nerf, I would have used it. Of course now with how Cheat Death has been nerfed, I'm much less likely to take that piece of gear.


He played 237 games to get there. Alright, fine, 130+ with a priest. That's a ******* of games in a ****** BG (his BG only has 20k 2v2 teams) with a very forgiving comp. He's bad, he just thinks because he's above 1500 that he must be decent.


You're still missing rogue mechanics. I'd call you an idiot, but that would be giving you credit for not being completely brain-dead. Here's a scenario to show you why you need 79 hit:

Druid is in blind in war/druid. He trinketed your priest's fear earlier in the match. He has one second left in blind, warrior is down to 10% HP. Druid has NS up; when he gets out of blind, the warrior will be back up to 40-60% HP.

You miss hemo. You miss hemo again. You're cursing over vent, throwing your headset as you lose to a 1500-rated warrior/druid team because you didn't have enough hit.

On the flip-side, missing a KS can cost you a game as well, because KSing a rogue in evasion or KSing a warrior doesn't allow them to dodge, parry, or block. That's a whole lot more damage that you'll be doing while they're in KS.

Understand why you've been called a mongoloid now?


Here's a hint: I don't give a ****. I don't care about anything on this forum. I post here to amuse myself. I post here when I'm bored and Northrend is down in beta. I post here when there's no PvP to do. A few people on this forum consider my knowledge to be the pinnacle of rogue knowledge available on this forum. I don't go out and write guides for that purpose. Writing guides helps my own personal play get better, since I learn by vocalizing my thoughts to other people in an organized manner.

I just gave you a good reason to get to 79 hit. Take it or leave it; either way, have fun being awful in the 1600s.

I'm impressed moo answered my second question before you did, Theo. You still didn't understand it, and keep saying useless things.


I got to 1667 doing the 10games required per week. than we wanted moar and we only met warr/druids in s3/s4. Warr/druid really need a nerf.

The situation you explained with the druid is very less likely to happen. It is more likely to kill the warrior faster.
It is the same thing like: blablablah, druid 1 second blind, warrior has 15% and needs MANY crits, but sadly, I only get normal hits. See?


There's always PvP out there.

Let me clarify a few things for the OP. (Simply for the sake of clarifying, it's pretty easy to tell that his brain won't absorb it anyway.)

First. If you are in a PvE setting, Hit is marginally better than Crit from 79 to about 280 hit, where gear starts to give more crit than hit. (I think. I've never raided past Vashj,)
Few reasons. First, this. 1.6667 Hit = 1.5873 Crit = 1.5385 AP as GodOfMoo who is not lacking 'neurons or eyes' said. This is taken directly from EJ I believe. It's correct. Second, in a PvE setting you will have Combat Potency. 20% on offhand hit to get 15 energy. That means that if you get 1% more hit rating, not only is it marginally better than crit, but it also increases your Combat Potency proc chance by .2%. That doesn't sound like much, but it adds up as you keep gathering more % hit, and when your gear gets better in other ways (crit and AP, but not haste) it scales up even more. Let's do a little theorycrafting. 2% of 20 energy means... .3 energy per proc more. In long boss fights, that adds up... and that's only for 1% hit. Let's say that you have 20% hit, which is a very respectable amount. That's 20 * .3 per combat potency proc. Or 6 energy... which is roughly 1/6 of a Hemo. Now, if you're in ZA range, your hemos hit for 600-800... Non crit. You should also have about 25% crit, adding in Lethality that means hemo hits on average, adding crit, 850-900. So, 1/6 of a hemo means about 150 damage. 20% +hit, and each time your combat potency procs you add 150 damage. Assuming a 1.4 speed offhand, which is the regular, every 1.4*=7 seconds your combat potency procs, adding 150 dmg per 7 sec or 21 DPS with 20% bonus hit. Or, roughly 1 dps per 1% hit. So not only is hit (1.6666-1.5873*100)% better than crit (about 8%, each point), it also adds 1 dps if you are in kara through SSC gear.

So. That's for hit from 79-~280... What about 0-79? Well, if you have the right spec for PvP you will have 5/5 Precision, which is nearly enough to make your special atks hit all the time against bosses. But in PvP, with no points in Precision you need 79 hit.

Our special attacks (Mind you, this isn't including the incredible utility of the CC that we have) make up for close to 50% of our DPS in PvP because damage is rarely sustained. You white hit and special attack until your enemy moves, then you catch up while regenerating more energy, so special attacks are worth more in PvP than they are in PvE. For each 1% of hit... you gain 1% damage, straight out, on your special attacks. You also gain 1% on white attacks, and 1% chance to hit with specials that you don't rely on for damage. That means KS. Gouge. Kick. Blind. Deadly Throw. 1% hit on those is worth MUCH more than 1% of your normal damage in most cases. So, with a little estimation on the CC moves, you gain above 3% dmg for 1% hit... So what does crit get you? An average player with full PvP gear has 350-400 resil. That's 17-20% less dmg taken from crits, which means hit is now, instead of 8% better, 25-28% better than a single point of crit... Not including your cc which is priceless. Regardless of your damage, if you miss a key cc or stun your enemy can just turn the game around easily because THEY are hit capped and their cc works 5% more of the time than yours. That's like 5% of games for 79 hit.

Get all that? Good. There's probably more, but I don't feel like typing it.

Oh, about your initial question. If you're not PvP hit capped, TAKE THE HIT. This is a no-brainer. If you are hit capped, hit isn't as good as AP, but still better than crit. There is no exact X hit = Y AP for pvp, but you can guess on your own due to your own needs. If your AP is sub-1700 or so, take AP over hit. If your HP is sub-10k, take HP over AP. If your resilience is sub 250-300, take resil over hit (Unless you run in 3v3 or 5v5 and play 4/5 s4 and 4/8 t6 for maximum dmg and medium survivability, or run 2dps 2v2 team and just want max dmg over everything, but I don't think you have 4/8 t6 if you are trying to get into ZA.)

I hope that you at least read this and scoff at it, OP. We all know you're wrong except you.

Edit: Thought of something else. A while back, RPZip made up a little story (Or took it from somewhere else, I don't know) about Hit vs. Crit. Imagine this:

There are 100 people sitting around a table: 27 guys named Miss, about 25 named Crit and 48 named Hit. One new guy named Crit arrives, but there are only 100 spots at the table. Now, who has to get up and leave? Not Miss, but Hit. One guy named Hit goes up into the attic and cuts himself while the new guy Crit took his spot.

TL;DR version: Hit>Crit. For a lot of reasons.

Also, OP, most of the rubbish that you spew out is wrong. Take this for example. You argued with Theo's example of a druid having 1 second left on blind and the guy at 10%. You said that if your hemos don't crit, he won't die.

Guess what: You're wrong. Whatever your comp is, your partner can do some instant damage. Moonfire. SW:Death. Judgment. Shocks. Fire blasts. Anything to help you get the other guy dead. If you're low on HP too, they will be healing you... This is still an easy one. If your hemos don't hit because you're below the hit cap (and 20-24% of your white hits aren't hitting either), you are going to lose more damage than you would from not critting. That's the thing... People talk about Sustained vs. Burst dmg all the time. Thing is, there isn't really a difference... Over a selected window of time, in this case 10%-0%, you are going to do roughly the same amount of damage with high crit, or high hit. (Unless you're daggers and you vanish ambush, or mutilate, in which case you're either Tosan, running with a Dpriest, or plain bad.)



Edited, Jul 25th 2008 5:52pm by morgorg

Oh dear.

Show me how it is possible to trade 79 hit for 1580 AP...wait, its not possible.

At no time did you put up a simplified formula, and even if you did it would be wrong, cause guess what?



Thus 1 Hit does not equal 20 AP. Nor does 5 Hit equal 50AP.

Tell me if you can read that, and if you can then feel free to admit you are wrong.

And in case you didn't notice it...



Thus Hit provides more use in PvP than AP does until you hit the cap. I pulled that straight off of Shadowpanther.

And by the way, thank you for continuing to insult me, and continuing to prove your age. I especially like how you called me a ***. Way to go Mr. Smart Guy.

You can get hit capped easily. You never have to sacrifice 20 ap for one hit.

This topic is retarded as ****.

FTFY

If you knew everything I said, you would have submitted to plain logic. Anyways, you keep pulling numbers out of who knows where, and I provide some cold, hard maths + logic. So how do you figure that what youare saying is rational, when what EVERYBODY FOOKING ELSEis saying supposedly isn't logical?

Next time think of a better childish way to say "I'm right and you're wrong" than "I don't care what you think because I know I'm right. So there!"

By the way, you don't control who says what just because this is your thread. People can come in and say what they like as long as it's constructive... but you wouldn't know that because you clearly didn't read the stickies. Another thing to say is that you shouldn't call a guy (Theo) who has upwards of 5k posts, multiple FAQs on how to play rogues, and a well geared rogue in good arena teams, an idiot straight off the bat.


Long story short: You're terribad. Plenty of other people came here, learned the same thing about themselves and then learned to accept it. You can choose to do that, or leave.

Ok man, you have been told by some of the most influential people on the rogue forums, GET TO 79 HIT AND THEN SOCKET AP. It really isnt that hard to understand.?

Edited, Jul 28th 2008 5:07pm by Speedburst

I agree with Theo.