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- So trying out SV this week
So trying out SV this weekFollow
Gonna see how it goes. Never really been SV before, but I think I have enough gear to pull it off, and it could be useful. Honestly the biggest reason why I haven't done it before now was because I was too scared that my dps would take a nosedive. I didn't want to go from constantly top 4 damage done to bottom of the barrel, but we'll see how it goes.
25 posts
SV is most useful in 25 mans... and a good heroic build...but dps is not a SVs thing, its that amazing Expose Weakness buff! If you do 500 dps and eveyone else does 50 more dps then its defenatly worth it!
be sure to update us on how you do in your groups.
joshzoladz wrote:
SV is most useful in 25 mans... and a good heroic build...but dps is not a SVs thing, its that amazing Expose Weakness buff! If you do 500 dps and eveyone else does 50 more dps then its defenatly worth it!
Not necessarily. The trade-off is whether raid dps increases more than if you were bm spec. If you do 1k dps as BM, and do 500dps as SV, and each melee does 50 more, you'd need at least 10 melee/hunters to make up the difference. The numbers from your example aren't really realistic, but does show you how to see if the difference nets more or less overall dps.
I enjoy raiding as SV, but sometimes raid benefit just isn't there if we are really light in the melee department (especially for us on fights like council and Illidan). That being said, even as a survival hunter, your dps shouldn't be that shabby at all. You should still be in the top half of the dps, even without any group support.
http://wowwebstats.com/oqyihd5zttd2m
SSC, well part of it anyway. Plus gruul. Pay no attention to the bugginess of trash info (including the 95,000 dps rogue) no one else recorded info and WWS can be less than accurate with only one combat log.
If you hit all bosses, 3rd overall which is about what I'm used to. I tanked on high king, so that's alright, but I was hella low on lurker. Tidewalker I got a wow critical error and watery graved a few times.
I think I can safely say that I don't have to worry about my overall dps, even though I might have lost out a little bit, I think that I did good enough to where I could consider staying SV. I'm going to continue to stay this spec all week and see how it goes.
SSC, well part of it anyway. Plus gruul. Pay no attention to the bugginess of trash info (including the 95,000 dps rogue) no one else recorded info and WWS can be less than accurate with only one combat log.
If you hit all bosses, 3rd overall which is about what I'm used to. I tanked on high king, so that's alright, but I was hella low on lurker. Tidewalker I got a wow critical error and watery graved a few times.
I think I can safely say that I don't have to worry about my overall dps, even though I might have lost out a little bit, I think that I did good enough to where I could consider staying SV. I'm going to continue to stay this spec all week and see how it goes.
Currently my guild is raiding with 3 hunters, 2 BM and 1 SV (Myself). My typical DPS for a raid night will be in the top 8 for the overall raid damage. Bosses vary a lot depending on what you're actually fighting. However I know I add a lot more raid dps overall. With around 1200 agility fully raid buffed when EW Procs that's roughly 300 extra AP for all the physical damagers.
Key thing is to always be using your consumables. Elixir of Major Agility as well as any +Agi food help out quite a bit and give you that extra boost in agility you may be lacking due to armor. Your DPS will slowly begin to dwindle in the higher end instances, but you have to remember just how much more DPS you're adding to your raid group. We raid with 3 tanks, 1 full group of melee, and 3 hunters like I said previously. The rest is usually divided up between caster dps and healers. Taking this into account I'm providing a raid buff for roughly 10-11 (depends) people including myself.
Currently I'm sporting a more utility friendly spec. With my guild sometimes the third hunter isn't always on when we're starting up a raid, so when I can pump out another Misdirect for that extra aggro boost to the tanks, it's very helpful. Even when the third hunter is there during a raid, I still pop my Readiness just for that extra Misdirect + Rapid Fire.
For personal DPS, you can slap on some Armor Penetration gear, but you may lose some extra agility due to the items not being so agility friendly. I have a few sets of gear, but right now I'm running with my agility gear which gives me a total of 940 agility unbuffed. If I switch to my Armor Pen/Personal DPS gear, I lose around 100 or more agility. Which isn't bad, but I also don't have a lot of Armor Pen to be worth the sacrifice in agility right now.
The big thing is crits with SV spec. The more you crit the more that EW buff is going to be up on the mob helping out your raid. So I'm focusing purely on agility right now. I still have a few more upgrades in the works, but waiting on my T6 shoulders before I do any drastic gem changes.
If you plan to stay SV for your raids try to plan out your gear. There are some leather pieces out there that may benefit you more then the mail pieces for pure agility. Don't negate your Hit % though. And if at all possible, try talking to your fellow raiders about maybe passing on a more heavy +agi piece of armor and you'll maybe give them first dibs at a better item more suited for their specs (BM or Enhancement Shaman). I was lucky enough to get our very first Shivering Felspine that drops off the Sunwell Trash not to long ago. Many other melee wanted it, but they passed it to me first. So far another one hasn't dropped, but I can honestly say that weapon will be my last Melee weapon upgrade until the expansion. Rather tough to get an item with 97 agility, haste, and attack power on it.
In any case, good luck to you on your SV adventure and let us know how it goes.
Key thing is to always be using your consumables. Elixir of Major Agility as well as any +Agi food help out quite a bit and give you that extra boost in agility you may be lacking due to armor. Your DPS will slowly begin to dwindle in the higher end instances, but you have to remember just how much more DPS you're adding to your raid group. We raid with 3 tanks, 1 full group of melee, and 3 hunters like I said previously. The rest is usually divided up between caster dps and healers. Taking this into account I'm providing a raid buff for roughly 10-11 (depends) people including myself.
Currently I'm sporting a more utility friendly spec. With my guild sometimes the third hunter isn't always on when we're starting up a raid, so when I can pump out another Misdirect for that extra aggro boost to the tanks, it's very helpful. Even when the third hunter is there during a raid, I still pop my Readiness just for that extra Misdirect + Rapid Fire.
For personal DPS, you can slap on some Armor Penetration gear, but you may lose some extra agility due to the items not being so agility friendly. I have a few sets of gear, but right now I'm running with my agility gear which gives me a total of 940 agility unbuffed. If I switch to my Armor Pen/Personal DPS gear, I lose around 100 or more agility. Which isn't bad, but I also don't have a lot of Armor Pen to be worth the sacrifice in agility right now.
The big thing is crits with SV spec. The more you crit the more that EW buff is going to be up on the mob helping out your raid. So I'm focusing purely on agility right now. I still have a few more upgrades in the works, but waiting on my T6 shoulders before I do any drastic gem changes.
If you plan to stay SV for your raids try to plan out your gear. There are some leather pieces out there that may benefit you more then the mail pieces for pure agility. Don't negate your Hit % though. And if at all possible, try talking to your fellow raiders about maybe passing on a more heavy +agi piece of armor and you'll maybe give them first dibs at a better item more suited for their specs (BM or Enhancement Shaman). I was lucky enough to get our very first Shivering Felspine that drops off the Sunwell Trash not to long ago. Many other melee wanted it, but they passed it to me first. So far another one hasn't dropped, but I can honestly say that weapon will be my last Melee weapon upgrade until the expansion. Rather tough to get an item with 97 agility, haste, and attack power on it.
In any case, good luck to you on your SV adventure and let us know how it goes.
I have a question for the more experienced SV hunters. Do you think my current weapon (blade of harbringers) is better than the pole off najentus? I don't need the hit rating (I'm over the normal cap, without surefooted), but my axe has no agi on it. On the flip side it does have a huge chunk of crit and haste.
Tough question. I think I would go with the polearm if you have a paladin who raids with you and u get BOK. Usually I go for overall dps when BM or MM. Tough call really both great weapons and as a SV more AGI never hurts :)
Edited, Jul 22nd 2008 3:33pm by ammerman
Edited, Jul 22nd 2008 3:33pm by ammerman
Quote:
I have a question for the more experienced SV hunters. Do you think my current weapon (blade of harbringers) is better than the pole off najentus? I don't need the hit rating (I'm over the normal cap, without surefooted), but my axe has no agi on it. On the flip side it does have a huge chunk of crit and haste.
Let's compare a little.
Assume both have +35 agi enchants, we're using the Crossbow of Relentless Strikes and we're using a 15% Quiver.
The Blade of Harbingers
108 Attack Power
55 Crit
53 Haste Rating
+35 Agi Enchant
3.47% Total Crit (w/ +35 agi enchant)
148 Ranged Attack Power OR 10.57 DPS
10 Added AP from Expose Weakness Talent
2.35 Attack Speed w/ Crossbow
VS
Halberd of Desolation
51 Agility
57 Stamina
100 Attack Power
30 Hit Rating
+35 Agi Enchant
2.48% Total Crit (w/ +35 agi enchant)
199 Ranged Attack Power OR 14.21 DPS
24.75 Added AP from Expose Weakness Talent
2.43 Attack Speed w/ Crossbow
Basic Conclusion
You'll be adding more DPS to your raid's physical damagers by using the Halberd, however you will be giving up a lot of personal DPS for yourself. The Halberd I would say would be better for Boss Fights where you might need the added HP as well as adding more agility for your EW. You'll lose about 1% Crit, but fully raid buffed this really shouldn't hurt you that much. The Halberd also lets you mix and match your items a little more due to the mass amount of +hit from it. Allowing you to go for more +Agi Armor Items/Gems over +Hit Armor Items/Gems.
However the Blade of H. gives you haste, which will increase your personal DPS and help you to pump out arrows a little faster allowing you more chances to crit in a shorter period of time, however your EW will not be as strong. You also receive 1% more crit over the Halberd. Not to mention if another piece of armor comes along without the added +Hit your last piece gave, you'll have to compensate for it through gems or other pieces of armor.
For Raid DPS go for the Halberd of Desolation
For Personal DPS go for The Blade of Harbingers
Personally speaking, I would take the Halberd over the Blade just because I'm an agility *****.
***BORING MATH***
Firstly we'll look at the basics: Crit, RAP/DPS, and Agility.
We'll also be using the basic formula's:
40 Agility = 1% Crit
22.3 Crit Rating = 1% Crit
14 RAP = 1 DPS
Agility + 15% From Lightning Reflexes Talent = New Agility
1) Crit %
BoH = 3.47% Total Crit (w/ +35 agi enchant)
55 Crit = 2.47% Crit
35 Agi + 15% LR = 40 Agility = 1% Crit
HoD = 2.48% Total Crit (w/ +35 agi enchant)
51 Agi + 35 Agi + 15% LR = 99 Agility = 2.48% Crit
(I also have this weapon in my bank so I know for a fact it adds 99 agility with talents)
2) AP/DPS
BoH = 148 Ranged Attack Power = 10.57 DPS
108 AP + 35 Agi + 15% LR = 148 Ranged Attack Power/14 = 10.57 DPS
HoD = 199 Attack Power = 14.21 DPS
100 AP + 51 Agi + 35 Agi + 15% LR = 199 Ranged Attack Power/14 = 14.21 DPS
3) Pure Agility
BoH = 40 Agility
+35 Agility Enchant + 15% LR = 40 Agi
HoD = 99 Agility
51 Agi + 35 Agi Enchant + 15% LR = 99 Agi
Secondly let's take into account the Expose Weakness ability that adds more AP to all physical damagers in the raid.
25% Agi = Expose Weakness AP
BoH = 40 Agility = 10 AP for EW
HoD = 99 Agility = 24.75 AP for EW
Thirdly we'll look at haste. Since BoH Is the only piece that actually adds haste, we'll just look at that. We'll also be using this Haste Calculator as well as taking into account your current Ranged Weapon - Crossbow of Relentless Strikes Combined with 15% Quiver Haste.
BoH = 53 Haste + 2.8 Bow + 15% Quiver = 2.35 New Attack Speed of Crossbow
HoD = 2.8 Bow + 15% Quiver = 2.43 New Attack Speed of Crossbow
Edited, Jul 22nd 2008 10:54pm by Joobishwun
Wow rate up. So keep the axe for fights when my personal dps matters, but throw on the polearm otherwise. I really like the time you spent on it, and I kinda think I agree with you. I do have waaaay too much hit, but I'll be losing some the more T6 I pick up.
http://wowwebstats.com/c4vcyjgqmlw5a
First 3 bosses of BT, probably a better test than SSC was.
First 3 bosses of BT, probably a better test than SSC was.
Quote:
First 3 bosses of BT, probably a better test than SSC was.
Very nice damage. Although the BM hunter should be doing more dps than you are. After looking at his gear though, he could use some upgrades. The T5 4 piece bonus would help him out greatly considering he's doing about 10% more steady shots on bosses, and roughly 4-5% more steady shots overall over Auto-Shot. Perhaps he's just clipping to much when Imp. Aspect of the Hawk procs. Hopefully he's using the macro.
Looking at your raid, you have roughly 10 Physical Damagers, 3 Rogues, 2 Enh Shamans, 2 Hunters, 1 Feral Druid, and 2 Warriors (correct me if I'm wrong). Looks like you had a paladin sub in for a bit there too. So roughly 10-11 physical damagers I would say.
High Warlord Naj (the actual killing not the attempts) was very nice on your part. You weren't spiked once, so your DPS was able to stay consistent throughout the whole fight (unless of course you had to pull the spine off of some one but still). Not sure how you missed 1% of your steady shots, perhaps when the bubble is up it counts it as a miss? Dunno, either way, very nice.
What was your other warrior doing during this fight btw? Cause his only damage was impaling the spike? Was he just running around grabbing spikes off people? I'm not sure I understand his role during this fight.
Supremus you have more of an advantage due to being able to continually fire upon him from farther away while he's on the 2nd phase. Not to mention during phase 1 you can almost stand completely out of the range of the fires without having them get close to you.
Shade isn't really a fight to be honest. He's the easiest boss in there just because you only kill trash, and then DPS a boss where you don't have to worry about aggro. But still your DPS was very nice.
Your overall raid DPS is excellent, but I'm surprised the BM hunter didn't beat you (no offense). He could also use a touch more +hit, but not to bad considering (unless you have a balanced druid who spec'd into faerie fire?). He should also look into getting some Armor Penetration, it will greatly help out his personal DPS. Even just a bare minimum of 1K Armor Pen would up his DPS by quite a bit. Same goes for you, but as a SV hunter I would say your main priority is Agility over all else, since you want that EW buff to be as good as it can.
The next boss fight will be a tad unfair on the DPS Charts due to the fact of people turning into ghosts and dealing damage that way. So when you do see that fight's DPS charts, take it with a grain of salt and try to remember if the people at the top were the one who turned into ghosts. Not to mention how early on they turned into a ghost. The DPSer's who don't turn into ghosts throughout the whole fight are the ones to look at.
Joobishwun wrote:
Looking at your raid, you have roughly 10 Physical Damagers, 3 Rogues, 2 Enh Shamans, 2 Hunters, 1 Feral Druid, and 2 Warriors (correct me if I'm wrong). Looks like you had a paladin sub in for a bit there too. So roughly 10-11 physical damagers I would say.
Yeah we normally have a ret paladin, but only 1 enh shaman. Our ret paladin respecced holy to help out since some of our healers played hooky.
Joobishwun wrote:
High Warlord Naj (the actual killing not the attempts) was very nice on your part. You weren't spiked once, so your DPS was able to stay consistent throughout the whole fight (unless of course you had to pull the spine off of some one but still). Not sure how you missed 1% of your steady shots, perhaps when the bubble is up it counts it as a miss? Dunno, either way, very nice.
Yeah the misses kinda baffled me as well, because I'm way over hit cap (so far over I purposely did not take surefooted in my spec). All I could conclude was what you did, the damage done while he was bubbled counted as misses.
Joobishwun wrote:
What was your other warrior doing during this fight btw? Cause his only damage was impaling the spike? Was he just running around grabbing spikes off people? I'm not sure I understand his role during this fight.
Yeah, actually lol. He beat his own current record of looting 14 spines, and had 5 left over after the fight. He really wanted to tank (we actually have very capable and geared tanks and OTs, any can sub in to be MT), but he rolled and lost the roll.
Our other hunter does have some gear issues, and I honestly don't think he puts near the effort into maxing his dps that I do. I'd be willing to bet all my gold he's never even used Cheeky's spreadsheet. I try to offer advice, but just because advice is offered doesn't mean he will listen.
First four Hyjal bosses including the guild's first Azgalor kill (and my first piece of T6 sup):
http://wowwebstats.com/bcgixrkvgjltq
Btw I completely and utterly cheated on Azgalor. We had our melee on doomguards and every time a shaman went "hey I have a bloodlust, move me into a caster group" I moved them into my group (raid leader abusing powers, what can I say?) so that's why the warlocks and myself destroyed the fight.
Yes, on trash I do next to no dps because I'm kiting mobs around getting npcs.
This is my last WWS I'm posting because my experiment is over, I am now conclusively staying survival. My agility is still meh but I've got utility and I'm beginning to pick up a good amount of armor ignore (@441 ignore and I'm trying to get the ZA junk to increase agi and armor ignore at same time). I was able to bring utility without losing dps, so I'm happy.
http://wowwebstats.com/bcgixrkvgjltq
Btw I completely and utterly cheated on Azgalor. We had our melee on doomguards and every time a shaman went "hey I have a bloodlust, move me into a caster group" I moved them into my group (raid leader abusing powers, what can I say?) so that's why the warlocks and myself destroyed the fight.
Yes, on trash I do next to no dps because I'm kiting mobs around getting npcs.
This is my last WWS I'm posting because my experiment is over, I am now conclusively staying survival. My agility is still meh but I've got utility and I'm beginning to pick up a good amount of armor ignore (@441 ignore and I'm trying to get the ZA junk to increase agi and armor ignore at same time). I was able to bring utility without losing dps, so I'm happy.
Instead of the badges ax or the Naj spear, might want to go for dual Daggers of Bad Mojo. ArP is incredible, and it still doesn't gimp your agility.
BT Raid all the way up to Council (we didn't kill Illidan, raid ran a little late)
http://wowwebstats.com/uy1mayhibhctq
The part that may get confusing are the multiple listings for the "Essence of" boss. It's 1 boss, but every time she changes phases it's considered a new boss to WWS. So just pay attention to the damage done for Essence of Suffering Try 2, Essence of Desire Try 1, and Essence of Anger Death.
The hunter at the top, Chemp, is our ultimate DPSer. He's sporting a BM spec, with a lot of ArP. Not to mention we were also experimenting last night with a Feral Druid, and a Shaman with Imp. Totems in the hunter group. The last hunter didn't come in till late, which is why he's so low on the Overall chart, but you'll see just how much damage he added to the bosses when he did get in. He's also a BM spec, and they both do very good damage.
However you can see where I rank as an SV hunter. My damage isn't at the top, but being within the top 5 amongst our other DPSers is definitely a way to display how a SV hunter does. We're also missing our other Warlock unfortunately. He's very well geared with a destruction spec, but he wasn't in this raid, and won't be back with us for some time to come. However he's typically also in the Top 5.
With the group I was in, I had 1224 agility, and a 50.18% crit rating. 60.18% when Master Tactician would proc, which was just awesome.
This is my last WWS I'm posting because my experiment is over, I am now conclusively staying survival. My agility is still meh but I've got utility and I'm beginning to pick up a good amount of armor ignore (@441 ignore and I'm trying to get the ZA junk to increase agi and armor ignore at same time). I was able to bring utility without losing dps, so I'm happy.
Just to comment, ArP will definitely add to your PERSONAL DPS, but hardly ever the raid DPS. Having a nice mix is obviously what you're striving for, and hopefully you can pull it off. I'm just an agility ***** myself, and go for as much agility as possible as you can see from my armory link. Although with a few more gear changes, I hope to balance it out a little. My primary goal right now is to get 1K agility unbuffed. I'm at 940, so I just need 60 more agility (Not to bad right? =P ). After that I'll take a look at gear choices available, and what I might be able to sacrifice for more ArP. My crit is definitely where I want it though, and my personal DPS can only improve with more ArP at this point.
http://wowwebstats.com/uy1mayhibhctq
The part that may get confusing are the multiple listings for the "Essence of" boss. It's 1 boss, but every time she changes phases it's considered a new boss to WWS. So just pay attention to the damage done for Essence of Suffering Try 2, Essence of Desire Try 1, and Essence of Anger Death.
The hunter at the top, Chemp, is our ultimate DPSer. He's sporting a BM spec, with a lot of ArP. Not to mention we were also experimenting last night with a Feral Druid, and a Shaman with Imp. Totems in the hunter group. The last hunter didn't come in till late, which is why he's so low on the Overall chart, but you'll see just how much damage he added to the bosses when he did get in. He's also a BM spec, and they both do very good damage.
However you can see where I rank as an SV hunter. My damage isn't at the top, but being within the top 5 amongst our other DPSers is definitely a way to display how a SV hunter does. We're also missing our other Warlock unfortunately. He's very well geared with a destruction spec, but he wasn't in this raid, and won't be back with us for some time to come. However he's typically also in the Top 5.
With the group I was in, I had 1224 agility, and a 50.18% crit rating. 60.18% when Master Tactician would proc, which was just awesome.
Quote:
This is my last WWS I'm posting because my experiment is over, I am now conclusively staying survival. My agility is still meh but I've got utility and I'm beginning to pick up a good amount of armor ignore (@441 ignore and I'm trying to get the ZA junk to increase agi and armor ignore at same time). I was able to bring utility without losing dps, so I'm happy.
Just to comment, ArP will definitely add to your PERSONAL DPS, but hardly ever the raid DPS. Having a nice mix is obviously what you're striving for, and hopefully you can pull it off. I'm just an agility ***** myself, and go for as much agility as possible as you can see from my armory link. Although with a few more gear changes, I hope to balance it out a little. My primary goal right now is to get 1K agility unbuffed. I'm at 940, so I just need 60 more agility (Not to bad right? =P ). After that I'll take a look at gear choices available, and what I might be able to sacrifice for more ArP. My crit is definitely where I want it though, and my personal DPS can only improve with more ArP at this point.
lsfreak wrote:
Instead of the badges ax or the Naj spear, might want to go for dual Daggers of Bad Mojo. ArP is incredible, and it still doesn't gimp your agility.
Already said I was going to do this if you read my post. Sorry I didn't list off all the possible ZA loot I was going for.
Joobishwun wrote:
Just to comment, ArP will definitely add to your PERSONAL DPS, but hardly ever the raid DPS. Having a nice mix is obviously what you're striving for, and hopefully you can pull it off. I'm just an agility ***** myself, and go for as much agility as possible as you can see from my armory link. Although with a few more gear changes, I hope to balance it out a little. My primary goal right now is to get 1K agility unbuffed. I'm at 940, so I just need 60 more agility (Not to bad right? =P ). After that I'll take a look at gear choices available, and what I might be able to sacrifice for more ArP. My crit is definitely where I want it though, and my personal DPS can only improve with more ArP at this point.
I'm not sure if I could ever be a pure agility *****. I'm sorry, but I just can't go from top 3 dps every single raid (first in more than half) to 10th and be happy just because I'm bringing utility. I want to bring utility, yes, but I also want to be able to be competitive for top dps. I'm the only survival hunter in the raid, any AP I give the melee is more than they had before, regardless of how much I'm actually giving them. I promise if you ask one of our rogues he'd take as little as 5 extra AP if you offered it to him, without him actually having to do anything. As far as crit goes, I want to get as much as I can, but as long as I keep the EW buff up there 100% of the time, I'm not overly concerned with my crit.
I got both the najentus spear and the shoulders off akama last night so my agility has gone up and I really haven't lost any AP/crit.
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