Preliminary Cookie-Cutter BuildsFollow

Well looking at the talents, these are going to be my initial Cookie-Cutter talent builds that I think would work best in these settings:

Holy
PvE (47/0/24)
http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sxAzxhzhVuMxRbZVf0xhbzh

PvP (51/20/0)
http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sxAdxhdGVuMxRZVGzhRh

Prot
Main Tanking (0/58/13)
http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sZV0tIxczMgqeRGoVcx

Ret
PvE (0/7/64)
http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sZxMZEf0xhfzAIoguAo

PvP (0/20/51)
http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sZtGzhMhZVf0thfuVMsMzAo


Just my first initial thoughts, input is welcome and encouraged, as I'd like to have a good amount of info ready in the FAQ for when the expansion comes out.

Edited, Jul 18th 2008 10:26am by CapJack

Everything there is useless now...

Benediction/Imp. and Heart of the Crusader, now your judgements will give you the Haste from the Holy tree, and 3% crit for everyone else.

Conviction, another 5% spell crit.

Pursuit of Justice is useless, that can be put elsewhere in Ret, I just couldn't find a spot (Maybe Imp. BoM)

Improved Ret Aura/Sanctified Retribution, might as well, you got 40 yards on your aura and with all the spell power you'll have, you'll be able to boost your Retribution Aura up enough to help out the tank even more with threat.


Divine Guardian, yeah it's pretty good, I'm not saying it isn't. I just don't like the idea for speccing for "OHsh*t" moments in PvE. Maybe at first when your guild is learning the encounter, but when you get it on farm and everyone knows what they are doing, this wouldn't be so necessary.

Edited, Jul 18th 2008 10:48am by CapJack

Beacon of Light I think is better used in Parties to offset our ability to AoE heal when everyone is taking damage. In a raid, however, leave the AoE healing and spot healing to the other classes with the Shaman changes and Druid and Priest, they will be more than able to do it. We have fortified our niche as the best single-target, Main tank healer, and I believe we should do what we can to keep that up.

I really hope they move that Sheath of Light spell (either higher in Ret tree, or healing part into Holy tree). You have to go through so many useless talents to get to it.

The HoT on a crit is so awesome though..... That is a PERFECT Healadin spell for keeping the MT up.

Same with Touched by the Light.

They have healing spells set up that a Holy spec can't get access to.....hmmmm. I would gladly trade Beacon of Light for the "HoT from a crit" ability.

EDIT - OK, my rambling mind keeps going.....

Give Ret the Infusion of Light talent (since they are the most in need of mobile heals).

Give Prot Beacon of Light (gives them mass AoE aggro).

Give Holy a HoT from a crit.

Then, I think it would be a bit better balanced.

Edited, Jul 18th 2008 3:23pm by YJMark

ret builds badly done. why would you take 50% more ret aura dmg over 6% increased weapon dmg? warrior tanks would generate such miniscule threat from ret aura anyway. For pvp, some points can be shifted here and there but that's what i'd roll with. pve wise, that seems about right.

incidentally, capjack, what's your main spec? better not be holy, cause if you're giving advice while in that gear i'd slap you.

Above post was me on a friend's computer, forgot to log out. I think I edited it away, but if it's not still there, here's the text:

That weapon thing was a mistake, I caught it in the PvP build, but for some reason while I was filling out the PvE build I totally forgot about it, brain fart I guess.

First off, Ret's going to be running Ret Aura now anyway, and it will be modified by spell damage. With 30% of the AP going towards spell damage, Ret aura might be a decent source of threat for any tank, especially since it seems they are changing the threat mechanics a bit to make things easier to hold aggro.

Here's my changed build with a point left over, throw it where you want.


For the PvP build, the reason I went 2/3 Sanctified Seals is that so the seal spells can be a target for dispel mechanics. They will still resist 96% of the time, but now they can be targeted and help protect your other buffs through that. Some of the other talents yeah they can be shifted around.

And what's wrong with my healing set? It's perfectly fine for the progression I'm at.

Nothing wrong with it... Just that it's fugly as hell.

Still though, i do feel the points in imp ret aura are rather wasted, UNLESS the spell damage coefficient for ret aura is significant enough that it deals a good chunk of damage. remains to be seen though, what wotlk brings. imo the healing pve spec isn't fantastic either. I don't know how much raiding you do but i wouldn't find it good to rely on crits to apply hots. speccing so deep into ret just to get sheath of light gimps you significantly. Beacon of light looks to be the be all end all melee group healing spell, so not getting it is a huge waste in my mind. Pally healers have always complained about a lack of group heals and a lack of HoTs, and Beacon of Light solves both problems. I don't see pallies being pigeonholed into maintank healing any more, especially not with Beacon of Light. Just look at malacrass, having a healer who can keep the tank alive while still doing great raid heals during spirit bolts is invaluable. to skip the spell would just be blasphemous.

Despite what you might imagine, i DO NOT see holy pallies becoming semi offensive support in raids. Perhaps they will judge every 30 seconds to refresh the haste buff, but speccing so many points into ret is simply not worth it. the crit bonus will not stack, that would just be lame, and most raids will bring along a ret pally, who'll definitely spec into 3% crit judgements. You don't need improved judgements, you only need to judge every 30 seconds. you don't need anything else in there.

@agest: if that's a pvp build then i'm afraid it's not working. for pvp missing out on PoJ isn't a good idea, and sheath of light looks to improve damage far more than crusade will. imp BoM worthless compared to benediction. pvp never gets fanaticism anyway, so if you wanted to then forget it. if that build is intended as pve it doesn't work either, no fanaticism, no raid utility. Best build imo you can check out the one i posted, but i'm thinking about losing the points in divine guardian and sticking it into divine purpose.

Edited, Jul 20th 2008 12:35am by iceravenVI

Perhaps it's the fact that the reason i quit raiding as holy was because i got so tired of being a 1 trick pony. And i raided all the way to hyjal. For me the only thing i asked for was a group heal and beacon of light looks like a godsend to me. But upon further contemplation it seems to me that blizz intends for pallies to go the same route that priests have. Priests have deep holy, CoH builds and the not so deep holy utility builds. From the way the talents are structured, it looks like pallies will now have the choice of having Beacon of light, a decent group heal to bring more raid healing utility, or sheath of light, to compound pally's maintank healing god status.

i was puzzled by sheath of light, seeing as ret pallies never crit anyway. but upon further contemplation, i realised that with the changes to crit, now affecting both melee and spell, ret pallies will have actually pretty good crit rates, which is passable in short arena battles. the attack power to spell power thing is obviously godsend to retadins, but it isn't half bad for holy either, i suppose a lvl 80 healadin would have about 500 ap from the base str anyway, that's a decent amount of spellpower right there.

In our current setup, we have one warrior, one druid, and one prot pally for tanks. I think judgement of the just would be perfect. Every warrior MT would love for someone else to take care of imp. thunderclap. With the changes to the judgement system, it is even easier to keep it up.

For those that don't know or havent heard, judging doesn't consume your current seal. Also, the spell Judgement has been replaced with 3 other spells. Judgement of Light, wis, and Justice. When you cast any of these three, it gives the standard debuff but also judges the current seal.

For example: I cast Seal of Blood. I follow this by Judging Wisdom. The mob gains the standard Judgement of wisdom debuff but also takes the normal damage of Judgement of blood. Seal of blood is still active.

I think this change and the new spells will open doors unheard of for pally tanks. I feel that we will even be able to do more Main tanking and even some offtanking.

I think Heart of the crusader will be put on the back burner for Improved Judgements. Although, that really depends on our threat. Right now, AP is adding damage to SoR. SoR is also gaining more damage from spell power. Our threat should be as effective on single targets as most other tanks.

Do you have a source for this? I haven't heard it, and I don't want to flat out disbelieve you, but with all the fake information floating around I would like to be sure. How many others in the meantime have heard of this change?

@LauBR: no, Sanctity is gone and it's effect has been dispersed either into the spells it affected or another talent (the Improved version).

RE: Holy Shield. Don't forget that taking the Improved Holy Shield talent not only adds to the charges of Holy Shield, but it also increases the damage it deals, thus increasing it's threat as well. I think it will still be plenty necessary to take 2/2 Improved Holy Shield.

i don't know. those specs you have for pve holy and ret (the only 2 i really care about) aren't bad capjack, but i think for me i'd prefer a few differences. I think the spec my ret will go with at 80 will be:

http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sZxzZEf0t0fuAIoguAo

this spec pretty much takes every talent that will add to my dps/utility and puts the 1 extra point in reduced blessing of protection (or hand or protection or whatever it will be called). i beleive this spec would be the most dps from talents. the only reason i would change anything would be if the fights in WotLK require some different talents.

as far as pve healing i think what i'll go w/ at 80 is:

http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sxAkgGzhVuMxRtZE00x

this has everything essential in the holy tree and 15 points in ret for imp BoM, benediction, and conviction (now that it increases the crit% of spells in addition to melee). the only thing i might want to rearange is to find another point for reduced fear or to improve cleansing depending on what WotLK brings to the table.

Well it's a 10% increase in casting speed, my spec covers 4% of that and it does grab the 30 yard Judgements. So all you really lose is 6% casting speed and Beacon of Light.

I know. I cant seem to remember it is 10% and NOT 20%. I just don't really seeing you in charge of ret aura tho. Its gonna con unless there is another pally with it. You could dump Sanctified Retribution for one more point in spell haste.



Sheath of light isn't really that amazing of a single target healing spell. It isn't very predictable. You might get a huge HoT from a holy light crit, but any flash of light crit will overwrite it. You can go from a 300h/s spell down to 30 in the blink of an eye. Not to mention that overhealing right now doesn't count towards it. If you crit on a FoL and overheal half of it, the buff is wasted. The talent is better for multi person healing.

Sheath of light is more of a raid heal talent than beacon anyday.

Beacon has a 10 yard range. Do have any idea how hard it will be to get 4 or 5 people in a 10 yard cicle?

Edited, Jul 22nd 2008 2:18pm by ramera