So what do you think of the changes to tanking so far? :: Free Realms

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#1 Jul 18 2008 at 7:27 AM Rating: Decent

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Paladins (From Beta Patch Notes):

General:

* All Auras now affect all party and raid members within the area of effect.
* Avenging Wrath no longer causes Forebearance, damage increase reduced to 20%, now increases healing done by 20%.
* Blessing of Freedom renamed Hand of Freedom, Blessing of Protection renamed Hand of Protection,Blessing of Sacrifice renamed Hand of Sacrifice, and Blessing of Salvation renamed Hand of Salvation. Only one Hand spell can be on the target per paladin at any one time. All ranks now cost 6% of base mana.
* Hand of Sacrificeis now only 1 rank and transfers 20% of the damage taken to the caster, duration reduced to 12 seconds, cooldown increased to 2 minutes.
* Hand of Salvation, now reduces total threat on the target by 2% per second for 10 seconds while also reducing all damage and healing done by 10%.
* Blessing of Light and Greater Blessing of Light removed. Their effects have been folded into all relevant abilities.
* Divine Intervention cooldown reduced to 20 minutes.
* Divine Protection and Divine Shield now cost 3% of base mana.
* Hammer of Justice now costs 3% of base mana.
* Hammer of Wrath is now considered a Retribution spell, moved from Holy, mana cost reduced, missile speed increased, now usable on targets below 35% health.
* Holy Wrath is now instant cast, causes a 3 second stun, cooldown reduced to 30 seconds, radius reduced to 10 yards.
* Judgement of Justice will no longer prevent Fear effects, only prevent NPCs from fleeing (e.g. at low health). Seal of Justice/Judgement reduced to 1 rank with all the effects of the previous rank 2
* Lay on Hands no longer drains all mana, cooldown reduced to 20 minutes.
* Retribution Aura damage increased and now gains damage based on Holy spell power.
* Righteous Fury now increases threat caused by Holy damage by 90%. (instead of all holy spells)
* Seal of the Crusader has been removed. The effects of Judgement of the Crusader have been folded into all relevant abilities.
* Seal of Vengeance damage over time effect duration increased to 18 seconds.
* Turn Undead (ranks 1 and 2) removed. Turn Evil now granted at level 24, mana cost changed to 9% of base.

Holy:

* Divine Intellect (Holy) moved to tier 2, increases total Intellect by 3/6/9/12/15%.
* Healing Light (Holy) moved to tier 2.
* Holy Shock (Holy) range changed to 20/40 yards when used on enemies/friends respectively, cooldown reduced to 6 seconds.
* Illumination (Holy) moved to tier 3.
* Improved Concentration Aura moved from the Protection tree to tier 4 in the Holy tree.
* Improved Seal of Righteousness (Holy) moved to tier 1, renamed XXX, now affects Seal of Righteousness, Seal of Vengeance and Seal of Corruption.
* Pure of Heart (Holy) reduced to 2 ranks, now reduces duration of Curse and Disease effects by 25/50%.
* Sanctified Light (Holy) now also increases the critical chance of Holy Shock.
* Spiritual Focus (Holy) moved to tier 1.
* Unyielding Faith (Holy) moved to tier 2.

Protection:

* Anticipation (Protection) moved to tier 1, now increases chance to dodge by 1/2/3/4/5%.
* Avenger's Shield (Protection) cast time reduced to .5 seconds, duration increased to 10 seconds.
* Divine Strength (Holy) moved to tier 1 in the Protection tree.
* Holy Shield (Protection) cooldown reduced to 8 seconds. (typo?)
* Improved Devotion Aura (Protection) moved to tier 4, reduced to 3 ranks, now increases armor of Devotion Aura by 17/34/50% and increases all healing done to units affected by Devotion Aura by 1/2/3%.
* Improved Hammer of Justice (Protection) now reduces cooldown by 10/20/30 secs.
* Improved Righteous Fury (Protection) threat bonus folded into base spell, talent still reduces all damage taken by 2/4/6%.
* Redoubt (Protection) moved to tier 2.
* Toughness (Protection) moved to tier 3.

Retribution:

* Conviction (Retribution) now increases critical chance with all spells and melee attacks.
* Divine Purpose (Retribution) now reduces chance to be hit by spells and ranged attacks by 1/2/3%.
* Improved Sanctity Aura (Retribution) renamed Sanctified Retribution, now causes all units affected by Retribution Aura to cause 2% more damage. ( Sanctity Aura (Retribution) removed.)
* Improved Seal of the Crusader (Retribution) renamed Heart of the Crusader and the effects now apply to all Judgement spells.
* Repentance (Retribution) mana cost changed to 9% of base, duration increased to 1 minute (10 second PvP duration), now usable against Demons, Dragonkin, Giants, Humanoids and Undead.
* Stoicism (Protection) moved to tier 2, now reduces duration of Stun effects by 10/20/30% and reduces chance your spells will be resisted by 10/20/30%.

I know someone has already beaten me to this info, but I wanted to get a more focused discussion on tank info.

Avoidance
The changes to Anticipation look worthwhile. Hell even Rets will be able to spend worthwhile points in prot now. Its a tier 1 5% increase in avoidance. That means we can get a total of 10% just from talents.

While the cooldown of holy shield has been reduced, the charges and effect seem to be left alone. On the wow head calculator the tool tip still reads 10sec effect. I think we will become the better tank for fast hitting mobs, or hard hitting ones.

The wow head calculator also has a talent called "Judgement of the Just". Basically our judgements will also decrease attack speed of mobs by 20%!!!

Threat
Overall we seem to be getting a boost! SotC is being removed but all abilities that gained from it will deal more damage. A similar effect was added to heals so that Blessing of Light my be deleted.

I can see myself dumping 5 points into Holy now. Dealing 15% more damage on SoR is better than my T4 2 set bonus.\

On wow head there seems to be a talent tree already up. In the upper tiers of our tree is a talent called Touched by the Light. It increases spell power by 30% our stam!! For me thats around 400 extra spell power.....

If they released the trees now: Id get DOUBLE my spell damage. I think my threat will be higher? With the new 51 point talent, I can see us using warrior tank weapons. Its an spell similar to crusader strike. 100% weapon damage delt as holy damage every 6 secs.

Shield of Righteousness: (Level 75, 6 sec cooldown) Slam the target with your shield, causing Holy damage equal to 200% of your block value. This spell causes a high amount of threat. There is also a talent to reduce mana and increase damage by 15%. That talent also effects AS and holy shield to the same degree.

I know a lot of people are upset about Salvation. Think about a raid situation tho. EVERYONE probably already had it. Now tanks are just doing more threat to compensate. Hand of salvation will actually help the situation. Now healers will be spamming heals and watching threat. Someone gets high, BAM, they lose 20% total threat. This change effects game play for sure but overall I think it helps our Raiding.

The mana cost on AS seems to be lower. Talents will force it down and its much faster to cast. I think we will become decent OTs now. That is assuming we can keep up on mana.

Nifty tricks!
Look at the new Sac! We can now use Hand of Sacrifice to reduce the MTs incoming damage by 20%. It lasts for 12 seconds on a 2 minute cooldown.

A talent in prot now that changes Divine shield. When active it transfers 15% of the damage delt to the party or raid within 30 yeards to the pally!

With the old Improved SotC talent, any of our Judgements will give the +3% crit. That means we can keep wisdom up for a raid wide mana regen, even with one pally.

Improved Devo will now increase healing by 3% raid wide when in range. Not to mention a boost in the armor gained. The level 70 version would add around 1.3k aromor.

Edited, Jul 18th 2008 11:29am by ramera

Edited, Jul 18th 2008 11:49am by ramera

Edited, Jul 18th 2008 12:01pm by ramera

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#2 Jul 18 2008 at 7:35 AM Rating: Decent

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I think my first build will be similar to this: Clicky!

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#3 Jul 18 2008 at 7:39 AM Rating: Decent

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you forgot 1 thing

Ret aura being effected by spellpower.
that seems broken IMO, even if its a very very small coefficient, adding more damage to ret aura which is already free is huge.

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#4 Jul 18 2008 at 7:46 AM Rating: Decent

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I think with the changes to devo, I don't see us using Ret now. If I can make my healer 3% better... Im going to. Plus, if a Ret pally is with us, he is going to be using it for sure now. It increases is overall damage by 2% because of improved Ret aura. Not to mention further talents in ret add a 3% buff to attack and casting speed.

Edited, Jul 18th 2008 11:53am by ramera

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#5 Jul 18 2008 at 8:07 AM Rating: Good

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First off that wasn't me... unless you knew that I already READ it, in my room, in which case.... creepy.

Anyway, tanking changes...

I think we are moving away from having spell damage in our gear at all. With the Stamina -> Spell Damage conversion, we can devote more into stamina while still getting the same or more spell damage as before.

Hammer of the Righteous looks interesting, it will pay more to have a high weapon damage weapon meaning SLOW instead of fast like we are used to. We choose fast weapons now for Reckoning and generally more consistent damage, however since people spec out of Reckoning, and in the higher gear levels you never miss anyway, it will pay more to have a slow 2.8 weapon speed one-hander that can do as much damage as you can with this ability, since not only is it Holy damage, but it causes a high amount of threat on top of that. Also, this will probably be better to use when pulling only a couple mobs than spamming Consecration. Obviously it would be more threat if you used both.

Shield of Righteousness again, interesting. Our own shield slam, dealing 200% of our block value as holy damage and causes a high amount of threat.

My only concern is this gives us even MORE buttons to use, and we will have to work out a rotation that best uses our abilities to max out our threat, as it will be impossible to do all of the spells on their cooldowns. Threat spells will be:

Holy Shield (8 Sec. Cooldown)
Consecration (8 Sec. Cooldown)
Seal/Judgement of choice (8 Sec. Cooldown)
Avenger's Shield (30 Sec. Cooldown)
Hammer of the Righteous (6 Sec. Cooldown)
Shield of Righteousness (6 Sec. Cooldown)

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#6 Jul 18 2008 at 8:17 AM Rating: Decent

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I saw the post was made by Mr.Somebody... guess my mind thought it was you. =D

I like that they are giving us more buttons. I understand the need to cast Consecration in AoE situations but Raid tanking? I think consecration will take a back seat on single targets, since there is just so much stuff to spam.

It will be interesting to see what will lost spell damage. I hope we keep pally tank armor although warrior BV gear looks tempting now. Having a higher dps weapon will help insanely. I mean, thats also double threat from white damage! Our 40 dps weapons will make up a fraction of our total threat. It would be nice to use Kings defender or some new equivalent.

Edited, Jul 18th 2008 12:17pm by ramera

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#7 Jul 18 2008 at 8:25 AM Rating: Good

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I hope we don't, the warrior gear gets strength, which will help with the Hammer of the Righteous ability as well as the Shield of Righteousness ability. They tend to have more block value, which will help with the ShoR ability. We don't need spell damage weapons anymore, I think we will get enough through our stamina alone, and our new threat spells and abilities will makeup for any gap.

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#8 Jul 18 2008 at 8:29 AM Rating: Good

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CapJack of the Seven Seas wrote:

I think we are moving away from having spell damage in our gear at all. With the Stamina -> Spell Damage conversion, we can devote more into stamina while still getting the same or more spell damage as before.

Although with a spelldamage/power weapon, we'll be pumping out amazing amounts of threat. These changes will almost double my spelldamage, and my stam trinkets just became theat trinkets as well. And if they're keeping up the promise to do away with crushing blows, we don't have to gear for anything after uncritable, but block and dodge. Block for threat, dodge for avoidance. And ofcourse, stam just became threat...

CapJack of the Seven Seas wrote:

Hammer of the Righteous looks interesting, it will pay more to have a high weapon damage weapon meaning SLOW instead of fast like we are used to. We choose fast weapons now for Reckoning and generally more consistent damage, however since people spec out of Reckoning, and in the higher gear levels you never miss anyway, it will pay more to have a slow 2.8 weapon speed one-hander that can do as much damage as you can with this ability, since not only is it Holy damage, but it causes a high amount of threat on top of that. Also, this will probably be better to use when pulling only a couple mobs than spamming Consecration. Obviously it would be more threat if you used both.

This looks to be interesting, as you'll need to see the stam->sp conversion along with weapon speed, spelldamageweapon etc. It'll not necessarily be easier to balance stats, but there will be fewer. And it'll be much easier to set up different sets for threat or avoidance.

CapJack of the Seven Seas wrote:

My only concern is this gives us even MORE buttons to use, and we will have to work out a rotation that best uses our abilities to max out our threat, as it will be impossible to do all of the spells on their cooldowns. Threat spells will be:

Holy Shield (8 Sec. Cooldown)
Consecration (8 Sec. Cooldown)
Seal/Judgement of choice (8 Sec. Cooldown)
Avenger's Shield (30 Sec. Cooldown)
Hammer of the Righteous (6 Sec. Cooldown)
Shield of Righteousness (6 Sec. Cooldown)

Blizzard have said that they want pallys to have a more active tanking style, and here we get it. We're still not close to warrior tanking iirc, but still more active, than laying down a concecrate, and judge/reseal/HS ever few seconds. And 3 out o 6 abilities are on 8 sec timers. That's 3 GCD = 4,5 sec. And HS has 2 sec overlap (1 sec with lag)... there are gonna be much theorycrafting here I think. Add haste from a ret pally? Even more...

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#9 Jul 18 2008 at 8:47 AM Rating: Good

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Yeah, but I think with all the increases in threat we will be getting from other abilities that will depend more on us not gearing for spell damage, it will cover the threat we could get from specing spell damage.

What I mean is:
You get more spell damage (i.e. spell damage weapon) you will have more spell damage from spells, however you could be missing out on stamina and/or block value and definitely a higher dps weapon in the case of the spell damage weapon.

So you could be getting more stamina instead, which would still boost your spell damage, so the gap would be smaller, and you could be getting more block value, which will help more with the SHoR ability. And in addition to the threat, you are getting higher HP values and blocking more damage to help out the healers.

In the case of the weapon, with a fast spell damage weapon, you won't be doing much damage with the HotR spell, at least not as much as with a slow tanking dps weapon.

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#10 Jul 18 2008 at 9:56 AM Rating: Excellent

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As far as Paladins taking a more active role in tanking... The benefit of starting with a full mana bar means we'll still be able to stick to a fairly standard rotation. And having more direct, RIGHT NOW, in your face threat abilities means we'll be able to frontload an UNGODLY amount of threat at the outset of any pull.

We get our version of Swipe (which I like better than the Druid version tbh :D) and a reason to have high Block Value other than Hyjal Trash Tanking now. Lookin forward to more.

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#11 Jul 19 2008 at 1:37 PM Rating: Decent

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I feel the same Losie.

I'm really hoping that our gear itemization stays similar to the higher Tier gear. Stam, dodge, def rating, spell damage than intel. Stam will always be our stat to stack. The new talents make that clear. Every point of stam will now give us more health than warriors, but also more threat.

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#12 Jul 22 2008 at 3:49 PM Rating: Good

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Overall I'm loving it.

Not only will this make it easier for us to get more stam (=threat), and a tad easiser to hit that 102.4, but in 5 man, and maybe 10 mans, we can act as a MT if we have to. Our direct threat output is upped and a lot of it can be burst.

Overall, I have to say go blizz!!! They used to laugh at us, then they praised us, now they will crave us!!!

Pass the rum!

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#13 Jul 22 2008 at 4:00 PM Rating: Good

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Simskin wrote:

Overall, I have to say go blizz!!! They used to laugh at us, then they praised us, now they will crave us!!!

Pass the rum!

:)

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#14 Jul 22 2008 at 7:34 PM Rating: Good

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freak that. the new talents are weird. we still dont get a spell interupt or much increase to dmg mitigation. the only bonus to the new talents i see is that our threat will now be active rather than reactive see we can concentrate on more avoidance abilities. so that every point in dodge doesn't reduce our threat output like it does currently.

basically with the new way threat is handled, tankadins will remain relatively status quo: aoe threat monsters, enough single target threat to satify most dps, 3rd(maybe 4th) rate dmg mitigation. at least we bring some utility.

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#15 Jul 23 2008 at 2:30 AM Rating: Good

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So what you're saying is Paladins will still be the obvious choice for AOE pulls and Warriors will still be better boss tanks? Sounds fair to me ...

Honestly, I'm not in love with all the changes coming on, but I do feel that we have been thrown a bone so to speak to be better single target tanks 1) without overtaking the Warrior/Druid's place as the best single target tanks and 2) without making all classes too similar. We don't need Shield Wall, Shield Bash, and Last Stand by a different Paladin sounding name to be a good boss tank. Would they make us better? Yes, but I personally don't want the only difference between a Paladin tank and a Warrior tank to be the color of bar we use.

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#16 Jul 23 2008 at 2:39 AM Rating: Good

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Maulgak wrote:

Honestly, I'm not in love with all the changes coming on, but I do feel that we have been thrown a bone so to speak to be better single target tanks 1) without overtaking the Warrior/Druid's place as the best single target tanks and 2) without making all classes too similar. We don't need Shield Wall, Shield Bash, and Last Stand by a different Paladin sounding name to be a good boss tank. Would they make us better? Yes, but I personally don't want the only difference between a Paladin tank and a Warrior tank to be the color of bar we use.

Actually, according to my guild's feral druid, druid tanking ability is being nerfed, though I'm sure he's not reading it all and only latching onto one talent. I'm also kind of curious how death knights will fit into the whole scheme of tanks.

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#17 Jul 23 2008 at 3:49 AM Rating: Decent

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It will be interesting to see how the changes to Shield block effect Warriors. It currently has a 30s cooldown with a 100% block. It also has 1 charge and talents lower the CD to 20s.

With that, I'm not quite so sure they are far ahead of us in mitigation. Although they still win for "Most Oh ****! things to push"

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#18 Jul 23 2008 at 7:54 AM Rating: Good

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CapJack of the Seven Seas wrote:

Yeah, but I think with all the increases in threat we will be getting from other abilities that will depend more on us not gearing for spell damage, it will cover the threat we could get from specing spell damage.

Ohhh, late reply :/

As we still can switch weapons in combat, open with a spelldmg weapon for ranged pull/threat, and switch to a high stam/avoidance/dps weapon when the boss reaches you. Unless this get's nerfed, we'll put out an awful lot of threat in the initial pull, and still have a few nice abilities to get through the fight. And in the first few seconds of a fight, you can lose the avoidance/stam/dps from your weapon.

CapJack of the Seven Seas wrote:

What I mean is:
You get more spell damage (i.e. spell damage weapon) you will have more spell damage from spells, however you could be missing out on stamina and/or block value and definitely a higher dps weapon in the case of the spell damage weapon.

So you could be getting more stamina instead, which would still boost your spell damage, so the gap would be smaller, and you could be getting more block value, which will help more with the SHoR ability. And in addition to the threat, you are getting higher HP values and blocking more damage to help out the healers.

In the case of the weapon, with a fast spell damage weapon, you won't be doing much damage with the HotR spell, at least not as much as with a slow tanking dps weapon.

I think I'll be running with 2 weapons, 1 for frontloading threat, and switch to an other tanking weapon when boss gets close. Our frontloaded threat just doubled... And that is insane. I usually manage to build 3-5k threat on a boss before he reaches me. That might now become 5-8k threat (without doing the math, tho). Maybe even up towards 10k. And that is a whole freaking lot. Even mage/lock crits will have a hard time pulling that off us.

This'll be fun :)

On a side note:
During instances, I'm usually just autoattacking the last mob of a 3-4 mob pull. Concecrates, HS, Ret aura and BoSanc makes me that much ahead on threat that my GF mage gets all upset ;)

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#19 Jul 23 2008 at 10:34 AM Rating: Decent

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forwald wrote:

CapJack of the Seven Seas wrote:

Yeah, but I think with all the increases in threat we will be getting from other abilities that will depend more on us not gearing for spell damage, it will cover the threat we could get from specing spell damage.

Ohhh, late reply :/

As we still can switch weapons in combat, open with a spelldmg weapon for ranged pull/threat, and switch to a high stam/avoidance/dps weapon when the boss reaches you. Unless this get's nerfed, we'll put out an awful lot of threat in the initial pull, and still have a few nice abilities to get through the fight. And in the first few seconds of a fight, you can lose the avoidance/stam/dps from your weapon.

We could probably get away with just using a damage/mitigation weapon full time. With AP adding to most spells, it really isn't that crazy. Infact, I'm starting to regret DEing my Kings defender.

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#20 Jul 23 2008 at 3:02 PM Rating: Good

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ramera wrote:

We could probably get away with just using a damage/mitigation weapon full time. With AP adding to most spells, it really isn't that crazy. Infact, I'm starting to regret DEing my Kings defender.

Yes, but tankadins are already very good at frontloading threat. This will make us able to frontload a whole lot more... More front threat, earlier dps start and longer time for them to catch up.

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#21 Jul 23 2008 at 3:54 PM Rating: Good

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i think the new threat increase to tankadins is grossly overstated. sure threat will be frontloaded, but will it be sustained? keep in mind, these changes are for WotLK, not for tomorrow. ALL classes get a bump in dmg output. sure most classes will get specific threat reduction talents. but what about your mages, shammies, pallies, and SPs that were already riding the line with BoSalv on em? now they have more dmg and more threat with no Salv.

tankadins will have to produce [current level threat + more threat/dmg of dps + extra 30%]. sounds simple enough with the new spells and talents. however, also factor how we might gear. some already suggest skipping the spell dmg weapons and gearing more like a warrior. so now we have less potential +spell dmg(as raw +spell dmg stat) and more avoidance, which leads to less reactive threat and less mana regen. but now we have an active threat spell: HotRighteous. if i read correctly, it takes the melee aspect of your weapon and converts it to Holy(yet still melee modified like SoC) weaksauce! the saving grace i see is the unlikely Avenger's Shield. cast time is reduced and output increased, this may be a very valuable spell in a rotation but with a high mana cost.

now this brings me to Guarded by the Light talent. has a chance to reduce the mana cost of AS and Consecration when you dodge or parry. a chance...whoopy do. warriors? generate rage on a dodge/parry...huge. warriors also get big bumps in blocking abilities with dmg mit and rage generation. pallies get nothing.

lastly what kind of 'out-the-***' talent is Touched by the Light? stam to spell dmg? its nice, just a weird conversion.

Huge Edit: turns out, as of latest test version, AP and Str will play a big roll in tanking stats. not just raw hitting power but also in blocking power and seal/judgement power. this will make itemization a little more clear.

Edited, Jul 24th 2008 12:24am by tommyguns

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#22 Jul 23 2008 at 7:34 PM Rating: Decent

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Wierd but totally cool!!

Look at the new epic stam gems. +30 stam. Thats a damn blue quality spell damage gem basically lol.

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#23 Jul 24 2008 at 11:52 PM Rating: Good

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tommyguns wrote:

lastly what kind of 'out-the-***' talent is Touched by the Light? stam to spell dmg? its nice, just a weird conversion.

Who honestly gives a rat's *** that it doesn't make 100% sense as long as it works? I'm sure you can find plenty more then just this talent that don't make sense, and not just in the Paladin class. What's important is how viable it is, not whether it makes sense.

I have to say when I read that Blizzard wanted to "normalize" itemization among classes that use the same types of gear, I was really disturbed. But, it seems like it's going to work out better then I, and probably others, had feared. While I am happy that it is working (cause nobody wants something broken ...) at the same time I don't like it. I liked the fact that Paladins used spell damage on their gear. It made us different from Warriors. As we get abilities closer to what Warriors have, and Warriors get abilities closer to what we have, then we all start using the same gear ... Again as I stated somewhere else, I don't want the only difference between a Warrior and a Paladin to be what color their resource bar is.

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#24 Jul 26 2008 at 5:50 AM Rating: Default

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Touched by the Light?

sounds like the catholic church has been fiddling with more kids

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#25 Jul 28 2008 at 6:13 PM Rating: Decent

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So...since we're talking about tanking here, I've been kind of curious what others think of these AoE spells that the druid and shaman, at least, are getting that involve knockback. Though I'm only a sometimes tank, it seems to me like it would be really annoying to get a group of mobs, pull them to where you want them, and then have someone cast a spell that throws them all over the place so you have to gather them back up and re-position them to make sure they're all in your forward arc.

Heck...I think any melee would hate those spells.

Anyway...thoughts?

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#26 Jul 29 2008 at 12:43 AM Rating: Decent

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May be the 51 point tanking talent will be modified, as there are a few contradictions about it:

- Spell damge weapon would still be better for aoe.
- SoV now applies the dot with each strike (no more a proc) => you will need a fast weapon to build up full stack.
- It has already been modified to add "requires 1 handed weapon" so we cannot be druids when not tanking ;p

I believe it will be fixed again and again during beta and may be after, or else we will end up with many diffrent weapons and macros... I think Blizzard wants to reduce the number of tanking items needed, not to increase it.

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So what do you think of the changes to tanking so far?Follow