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since it hasnt been posted yet (wotlk druid stuff)Follow

#1 Jul 18 2008 at 3:08 AM Rating: Excellent
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the NDA has been lifted, so feel free to talk about any and all of this stuff! any speculation, no matter how wild, is open for debate.

gogogo!

Quote:
Brambles (Balance): Now increases the damage done by your Treants, and also damage caused from your Treants and Barkskin has a 5/10/15% chance to Daze the target for 3 sec.
Celestial Focus (Balance): The stun proc now works with Starfall.
Entangling Roots: Can now be used indoors.
Faerie Fire (Feral): Now an 11-point talent, down from being a 21-point talent.
Feral Charge (Feral) is now a 21-point talent, up from being a 11-point talent.
Feral Charge (Feral): Can now be used in Cat form.
Feral Instinct (Feral) no longer increases threat generated in Bear form, but now increases damage done by your Swipe ability by 5/10/15%.
Focused Starlight (Balance): Now also works with Starfall.
Force of Nature (Balance): Cooldown reduced to 2 minutes, down from 3.
Hurricane: No longer has a cooldown (was 1 minute).
Improved Faerie Fire (Feral): Now also works with spell hit, in addition to ranged and melee hit %.
Improved Mark of the Wild (Restoration): Now a 2-point talent, down from a 5-point talent.
Improved Tranquility (Restoration): Now also reduces the cooldown of your Tranquility spell by 25/50%.
Mangle (Feral): Now increases the damage done by Maul in addition to Shred.
Moonglow (Balance): Now also works with Starfall.
Moonkin Form (Balance) no longer increases your attack power or causes you to regenerate mana off melee attacks, but now has a chance to cause you to instantly regenerate 2% of your total mana every time you critically hit with a spell.
Nature's Focus (Restoration): Now a 3 point talent, down from a 5-point talent. Also moved to Tier 1, up from Tier 2. Now also includes Nourish.
Nature's Grace (Balance): Now also reduces the global cooldown of your Wrath spell by 50% while in effect.
Nature's Grasp (Balance): Can now be used and can proc indoors.
Nature's Reach (Balance): Now also reduces threat generated by Balance spells by 15/30%.
New Spell: Revive - Returns the spirit to the body, restoring a dead target to life with health and mana. Cannot be cast when in combat. (Ranks 1-7 added)
Omen of Clarity (Restoration): Now a passive spell. Now also works for spells (healing and damage). Proc rate is roughly 6% with a 10 second internal cooldown.
Primal Tenacity (Feral) now reduces damage while stunned by 5/10/15%, and reduces the duration of fear effects by 5/10/15%.
Remove Curse can now be used in Tree of Life form.
Soothe Animal can now be used on Dragonkin as well as Beasts.
Soothe Animal is now instant cast.
Subtlety (Restoration): Now a 3-point talent, down from a 5-point talent. Also moved to Tier 2, up from Tier 3. Also now only reduced threat for Restoration spells, and reduces the chance that your healing over time spells (Lifebloom, Regrowth and Rejuvenation) will be dispelled, rather than all Druid spells. Threat management for Balance can now be found in the Balance tree, within Nature's Reach.
Survival of the Fittest (Feral): Increased to 2/4/6%, up from 1/2/3%.
The mana regeneration penalty when in Bear Form, Dire Bear Form and Cat Form has been removed.
Tranquil Spirit (Restoration) now also includes Nourish.
Tree of Life (Restoration): 30% snare penalty has been removed.
Tree of Life (Restoration): Can now cast Dispel Curse.
Tree of Life (Restoration): You can now cast all Restoration spells (Healing Touch) in the form, but Tree of Life now only reduces the mana cost of your healing over time spells (Rejuvenation, Lifebloom, Regrowth and Flourish) by 20%.
Vengeance (Balance): Now also works with Starfall.
#2 Jul 18 2008 at 4:05 AM Rating: Good
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Do I understand this right that as feral tank, we will be meant to generate our threat even more through damage?

We lose our +15% threat talent, but gain multiple damage bonus. I'm curious to see how it'll go, it's certainly interesting. Looks like we're gonna be mauling a lot more.

Edit: Also, it was already known but still I rejoice! Roots inside! RAWR! We'll be able to CC *two* mobs, and tank the rest.



Edited, Jul 18th 2008 8:07am by PhoenixOmbre
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#3 Jul 18 2008 at 6:43 AM Rating: Good
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PhoenixOmbre wrote:
Do I understand this right that as feral tank, we will be meant to generate our threat even more through damage?

We lose our +15% threat talent, but gain multiple damage bonus. I'm curious to see how it'll go, it's certainly interesting. Looks like we're gonna be mauling a lot more.

Edit: Also, it was already known but still I rejoice! Roots inside! RAWR! We'll be able to CC *two* mobs, and tank the rest.



Edited, Jul 18th 2008 8:07am by PhoenixOmbre

Maybe, maybe not. I see an overall change in the way threat is generated for all tanks. I think bear got changed too, but wasnt in the notes (as usual).
Probably, bear will have a boost on base threat, as warrior/pally had.

About the changes, I pretty much loved everything. But I think that we will see a litle nerf on druid on the next patches. Or a huge boost for others.
Druids would be great now, the way I always wanted, but would be too much better than others classes.

Btw, did you read the shaman changes too? No more need for grace of air, windfury totem changed to haste, so it will work for druid too. Those will be a great buff for feral dps druid. Really great.
#4 Jul 18 2008 at 11:10 AM Rating: Good
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I thought it was kind of weird that they switched FFF and feral charge around. This won't really affect feral druids all that much, but it would affect resto druids going into feral far enough to get charge for arena. Challenging roar cd reduction is nice. Hurricane cd elimination is good. The change to imp MotW was needed, but in reality won't affect ferals. There are simply no talent points to spare. The mangle change is nice, but I am a bit confused by it. Earlier, I believe they were saying Mangle(Bear) would increase maul damage, and mangle(cat) would increase shred damage. The wording of this post just says mangle, so (while it doesn't imply what I have said) I don't know if it means both mangles will increase the damage of both, or if each mangle will increase the damage of its respective ability.

Edited, Jul 18th 2008 3:10pm by anonymosity
#5 Jul 18 2008 at 1:44 PM Rating: Good
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Root indoors, another form of res, Healing Touch in Tree Form, Remove Curse in Tree Form, omen of clarity actually having a use for spells, and cooldown reduction on Tranquility.

I finally feel a reason to make a NS/HT macro now. I just imagine OOC proc'ing on that first crit HT I need to bring up the mt in some new WoTLK raid.

This is seriously a resto druid wet dream.
#6 Jul 18 2008 at 1:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Do I understand this right that as feral tank, we will be meant to generate our threat even more through damage?


no. all talented threat bonuses (defiance, primal instinct, improved righteous fury) have been rolled into their base skills. all bear tanks now generate threat as if they had 3/3 primal instinct all the time.

incidentally, loads of resto and balance love. finally got rid of that stupid ap->mana functionality that existed for moonkin. 2% mana on crit for a crit-heavy class build is sexy indeed. i wonder if that means you can spam rank 1 moonfire to proc it? theres no mention of a cooldown on it, and if youre low on mana with a high crit rate, rank 1 moonfire+innervate could bring you from empty to near full in the duration of the innervate.
#7 Jul 18 2008 at 4:00 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Feral Instinct (Feral) no longer increases threat generated in Bear form, but now increases damage done by your Swipe ability by 5/10/15%.


If the threat bonus has been rolled into bear form, then this is a really nice multi-mob tanking buff. Beserk with mangle and maul hitting 3 targets, and spamming this on the other cooldowns, that is more then our current maximum single target threat per second on 3 targets for 20 seconds. Yummy :D

Quote:
Mangle (Feral): Now increases the damage done by Maul in addition to Shred.


They were originally planning so that only cat mangle would effect shred and bear mangle would effect maul. This is much cleaner and still allows for a druid tank to keep mangle up for dps kitties while they shred away.

Quote:
Omen of Clarity (Restoration): Now a passive spell. Now also works for spells (healing and damage). Proc rate is roughly 6% with a 10 second internal cooldown.


OoC changedfrom a proc/minute to a percentage with a 10s internal cooldown? Haste just got alot better for feral~ Passive and procing on spellcast is even better for all specs.

Quote:
The mana regeneration penalty when in Bear Form, Dire Bear Form and Cat Form has been removed.


YES!!!!!! That was a big weakness for arena and will do wonders for feral longitivity in PvP

Quote:
Hit Rating, Critical Strike Rating, and Haste Rating now modify both melee attacks and spells.


Not druid specific, but crit rating effecting both melee and spellcasts is also a nice PvP buff. Now crit rating on feral druid gear will pull double duty for throwing heals as well, nice for PvP.
#8 Jul 19 2008 at 5:59 AM Rating: Decent
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PhoenixOmbre wrote:
Edit: Also, it was already known but still I rejoice! Roots inside! RAWR! We'll be able to CC *two* mobs, and tank the rest.


Three. Roots, cyclone and Hybernate ;)

Yeah, cyclone's far from reliable CC, but still...

Edited, Jul 19th 2008 2:08pm by Micros
#9 Jul 19 2008 at 11:37 AM Rating: Decent
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Some really amazing changes for resto druids: Out of Combat res, a passive OoC which procs on spells, AoE Circle of Healing type spell, and the new talents are just amazing. But honestly what has me most excited is:
Quote:
Improved Mark of the Wild (Restoration): Now a 2-point talent, down from a 5-point talent.

I finally don't have to feel like I just wasted 5 talent points for a so-so buff. Now I just have to waste 2...




Edited, Jul 19th 2008 8:52pm by Treehands
#10 Jul 19 2008 at 4:06 PM Rating: Default
Quote:
Quote:
Omen of Clarity (Restoration): Now a passive spell. Now also works for spells (healing and damage). Proc rate is roughly 6% with a 10 second internal cooldown.


OoC changedfrom a proc/minute to a percentage with a 10s internal cooldown? Haste just got alot better for feral~ Passive and procing on spellcast is even better for all specs.


i think you have this a little confused. passive meaning once you spec into it you dont have to buff it any more so no more 30 min buff of it. "now also works for spells (healing and damage). notice no mention of feral usage of it at all?? i dont think it's gonna be a feral thing any more think only spells. at least thats how i'm reading it.
#11 Jul 19 2008 at 4:21 PM Rating: Good
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punkspider, ****** Superhero wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
Omen of Clarity (Restoration): Now a passive spell. Now also works for spells (healing and damage). Proc rate is roughly 6% with a 10 second internal cooldown.


OoC changedfrom a proc/minute to a percentage with a 10s internal cooldown? Haste just got alot better for feral~ Passive and procing on spellcast is even better for all specs.


i think you have this a little confused. passive meaning once you spec into it you dont have to buff it any more so no more 30 min buff of it. "now also works for spells (healing and damage). notice no mention of feral usage of it at all?? i dont think it's gonna be a feral thing any more think only spells. at least thats how i'm reading it.

The word "also" indicates that it will work on melee attacks just like today, but ALSO spells.

I'm not convinced that the proc mechanism/rate is changing, though. It just lays out a "roughly" number so I gather that it'll still be chance on hit just like today, at a rate that adds up to ballpark of 6%. Not sure about that though.
#12 Jul 19 2008 at 4:28 PM Rating: Good
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We'll get a normal resurrection spell in addition to our combat resurrection.

Did someone say awesome?
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#13 Jul 19 2008 at 5:21 PM Rating: Decent
true true. good pointing out. lol i was getting that and natures grace? mixed up i was thinking ooc was one that worked with crits not hits lol. sorry about that my bad at work and sorta brain farting.

how much would haste realy help it? seeing it's a 6% chance to proc followed by 10 sec cooldown then another 6% per hit once cooldown is over. if it even stays like this
#14 Jul 19 2008 at 10:25 PM Rating: Good
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that's a good point, I may have gotten ahead of myself. It was normally assumed that OoC was a proc per minute function with about 2 procs per minute. However a 6% proc would average to roughly the same amount, the only difference is that you could try and force a proc in a burst of attacks. Haste would be benifitial, but unless the speculation on dual weilding dire cat turns out to be true it will probably still be expensive on the item budget and will probably be avoided.
#15 Jul 20 2008 at 5:50 AM Rating: Good
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MMO-Champion's Wrath of the Lich King talent trees with new patch notes applied.

One issue: I need ~5 talent points more than I'll have at level 80. Dammit.
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#16 Jul 20 2008 at 9:36 AM Rating: Good
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Mazra wrote:

One issue: I need ~5 talent points more than I'll have at level 80.


I actually don't mind that too much. Now feral won't have a one spec fits all anymore, making it easier to balance feral in all roles. We can still make a decently rounded feral build, but to do anything really well we'll have to spec particularly for it. I've come up with 4 builds so far; main tanking, dps, off tank, and PvP. Main tanking has poor dps, dps can't tank a raid. Off tank is a good balance of both, but is a horrible PvP spec. PvP isn't suited for PvE, but I could dps in it if I had to.

Now we have to make choices and sacrifices when making a talent build, so while feral is still very flexible it's not a jack of all trades master of none anymore. We will only be able to perform one role really well at a time, depending on what we are spec'd for. But on the bright side it looks like when we spec purely for a single role, we will be as effective as any other class in fulfilling that role. Tanking will be an exception since each tank has significantly different mechanics that a raiding guild will want to have at least one of each so that they can use the tank suited best of each particular boss. There won't be a best tank, simply a best tank for a particular boss.

On a side note, I think I want to try 2v2 with a death knight. Heart Strike with a Beserk free for all boosted by Hysteria sounds deliciously devistating.
#17 Jul 20 2008 at 12:28 PM Rating: Decent
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I always thought the main reason you would bring a feral druid in a raid over a warrior is the fact that they could tank AND dps. Making us spec into one or the other just makes it seem as though I'm losing one of my highest sell points when it comes to getting in a raid.
#18 Jul 20 2008 at 1:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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Possibly, but Warriors and Paladins are supposedly going to be able to do more damage with deep Prot spec, so they're going to catch up to us a little.

Also, I think You can get all the DPS talents and tanking talents, just missing out on a couple things. Maybe something like this. No FFF, Feral Charge, or Intensity, and missing the last point in Feral Instincts. If the armor cap is reasonably easy to hit, you can drop the last point in Thick Hide for 3/3 Feral Instincts.
#19 Jul 20 2008 at 2:10 PM Rating: Good
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SirJac, it just irks me that we have to specialize within a specialization to perform well.

Luckily a PvP build will be viable in 5-mans which is what I'll be focusing on. Just not sure if I should get Brutal Impact or 2/3 Thick Hide.
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#20 Jul 20 2008 at 2:57 PM Rating: Good
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that is one of the biggest criticisms leveled at feral druids in BC; they can tank, dps, and pvp using a single talent spec. hence, if there is one spec to rule them all so to speak, you cant make that spec terribly effective at all three aspects, and the one aspect that feral could be said to have suffered in was pvp (and even that was only relatively speaking).

what differentiation the specs does is allow for more power within the spec. hence, a pvp-focused feral actually could be given the tools necessary to succeed in pvp (moreso than now) while not being as strong or stronger as a pve dps and tank.
#21 Jul 20 2008 at 6:42 PM Rating: Good
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Narroai wrote:
I always thought the main reason you would bring a feral druid in a raid over a warrior is the fact that they could tank AND dps. Making us spec into one or the other just makes it seem as though I'm losing one of my highest sell points when it comes to getting in a raid.


We will still be the best off tank in the game, we don't have to choose to dps or tank with a single build. For raiding I'm probably going to use this build. Still very effective for tanking and dpsing in a raid so I won't lose out on the flexibility that is associated with feral druids. The down side is I won't be able to PvP with that build, so I'll have to respec like every other class if I want to hit up the arenas.

And your right Mazra, casuals should be able to just play with a PvP spec and do fine in 5 mans as well. I don't think that respecing will really be important until you start hitting the raids.
#22 Jul 20 2008 at 7:00 PM Rating: Good
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SirJac, it just irks me that we have to specialize within a specialization to perform well.


The problem is that Feral isn't a specialization, it's an entire class. Two clases, actually; Warriors and Rogues. It'd be like giving Mages a specialization called "Blowing **** up" or even just "Casting the spells that make the people fall down".

There's a huge amount of interplay between the two minispecs, and a few points of difference between the two of them is hardly a reason to get annoyed.
#23 Jul 21 2008 at 1:19 AM Rating: Good
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RPZip wrote:
The problem is that Feral isn't a specialization, it's an entire class. Two clases, actually; Warriors and Rogues.


Dumbed down versions of the two classes, but I guess I shouldn't complain. Having a PvP viable build that can also be used for tanking and DPS'ing 5-mans isn't bad. It's more than what Warriors get. Right?
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#24 Jul 21 2008 at 11:37 AM Rating: Good
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Probably, this will be my future build, with 4 talents to choose where to put:

http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=0ZxhGcfrbVhoVzAo0Eczb

I still didnt decided between the one that gives energy back using tigers fury (have yet to see it become usefull) or maybe the infected wound (would be a nice pvp/raid plus). Have to see things working to decide yet.

I'm trying not to think how much crit% I would have only with those talents...I think 50% on cat form will achievable easy even without buffs.
#25 Jul 21 2008 at 2:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Brisin wrote:
I still didnt decided between the one that gives energy back using tigers fury (have yet to see it become usefull) or maybe the infected wound (would be a nice pvp/raid plus). Have to see things working to decide yet.


Let's consider the bonus King of the Jungle gives to cat form, and cat form only.

From what I gathered from alpha leaks, Tiger's Fury will be free of cost, and on a 30 second cooldown. So with King of the Jungle maxed, you gain 60 energy every 30 seconds (coupled with Tiger Fury's normal buff, for even better use of energy in that time, which I'll ignore for sake of simplicity).
Depending on the length of the fight it's a bit more, for example - in a fight that will last 35 seconds you'll use it twice for almost twice the benefiet, but let's ignore that now as well, and just assume 60 energy every 30 seconds.


Let's talk about infinitly long fights and try to average the gain from the talent to a TOTAL damage increase:

Usually, you gain 20 energy per "tick", 2 seconds, averaging 10 energy per second, meaning that in 30 seconds you naturally gain 300 energy. Using Tiger's Fury with King of the Jungle talent maxed, you'll gain 360 in that time, which is 20% more. 20% more energy, if I don't miss anything, equates to 20% more damage from special attacks.

let's assume a damage spread of 60-40, meaning 60% from "yellow" attacks and 40% from "white" attacks, probably more in the yellow part. That was only a guess on my part, feel free to correct me here.

Let's add the 2 numbers I worked out above into one conclusion - you gain 20% "yellow" damage bonus from King of the Jungle, coupled with 60% of your total damage coming from "yellow" attacks, meaning you gain 12% damage in said fight, let's round it down to 10% just to give a lower boundary (which is, IMHO too low, but there just to be on the safe side).



You are trying to decide between King of the Jungle and Infected Wounds, which are obviously serving different ends, and the latter also covers a niche that Druids lack in (snare), so it's quite hard to compare the two, but for me (an almost pure PvEer) there is a clear winner, if I decide to go Feral when WotLK is out (and if it'll stay like this :) ).

A question for you, Brisin, how is the talent Infected Wounds supposed to help in raids?
Against trash mobs? Then why is it for raids and not 5 mans?
Against bosses? I'd assume they'll be immune, it's just too harsh.

In any way, I doubt Infected Wounds would stay the way it is right now, 50% attack speed reduction seems too big a debuff to just stay there (even though any healer, except a Druid, can cure it, with some difficulty).


As usual, any insights/corrections/opinions about this post are very much welcome, have fun, and don't forget to breath,
Yuval.

P.S I read the beta talents from Wowhead, so if I was seeing a different version than the one you know, please let me know.
#26 Jul 21 2008 at 2:20 PM Rating: Good
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I must say, I am looking forward to making this build, for a resto druid. It just seems like druid healing is going to become so much easier.

Plus with the intoroduction of Replenish, it's going to make tankadins love druids even more. With all the instant cast heals we'll have and with Gift of the Earth Mother plus whatever other haste items you can get, popping out a massive barrage of lifeblooms to mana up a tankadin is ungodly.

I plan on using this to my full advantage.
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