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Rogue leveling questionsFollow
I recently resubbed and I've been leveling a new Rogue. I got my last one to about 35 or 40, can't remember. What I do remember is that I leveled that Rogue as Combat and I was looking to try something new this time around. I love the Stealth and Poisons more than any other aspect of the class -- I love feeling like that creature striking from the shadows, disabling the enemy, weakening and destroying them. So I was looking at Assassination or Subtlety this time around, was wondering what are some tips in terms of specs, equipment, etc. with those two trees. Thanks for the advice!
Spec combat.
Quote:
Spec combat.
Thanks for the useless reply. I know the merits of leveling as Combat, that's not what I'm looking for, but thanks anyway.
If you want to level the fastest, go combat. If you want to be stealthy, grab a main hand dagger and go eventually mutilate using backstab until you get there. Open CS, KS either way.
rofl ... here we go again ;-)
Here's my opinion .. spec combat, at the very least to level 60 ... things slow down dramatically after that (leveling-wise), and then you can play around with specs ... but to be playing around with a low damage, slow levelling spec in Azeroth is gonna drive you crazy (again, my opinion).
When you hit 60, you have a large amount of talent points to get to the top talent in any tree, as well as some points to significantly buff it using other trees.
This is how I see it .. .and my experience is purely from a leveling perspective, and I believe that's the angle you want.
Firstly, the best piece of advice I ever got, and was very glad I took it, was ... ditch the dagger, go for a slow sword (main hand specifically - any fast weapon for off hand is fine).
Combat (not daggers) is very efficient, fast kills, low downtime, quick levelling.
Assasination (Mutilate) is great is you like daggers and don't mind having to constantly reposition yourself behind your target all the time. One thing that sticks out for me with mutilate though, is that in order for the ability to be worth anything, you need to have 2 daggers, as it hits with both weapons ... one dagger simply doesn't do the damage a sword/mace/fist can do. The big drawback is the energy cost, so you land up by waiting large amounts of time between special attacks. You can, however, very easily burst a target down without it ever even knowing you're there ... imo, one of the big plusses to the build
Subtelty (Shadowstep) is a lot of fun, you are very mobile, and getting behind the mob is not that much of an issue, as you're pretty much there if you're within 25 yards ... while it may be attractive to go with a dagger in this build (for ambush), your main damage ability is Hemo, which is weapon damage based, and is therefore better with non daggers. As I said, the beauty of this build is mobility and stealth ... you can move faster, safer and generally more sneakier with this build, the BIG downside is an almost total lack of general damage. Sure, you have some burst damage, but you'll fall asleep waiting for energy ticks and for mobs to die.
Now the kicker ... a lot of people view Combat as very un-roguelike, preferring to be a stealthy ******* and hitting targets from behind, poisoning them to death - assasination / ninja style .. and yes, this is the main domain of Assas/subtlety. BUT, as combat, your openers are either Cheap Shot, or Garotte ... both only usable in stealth, both as nasty as I can imagine an ability to be, and both generally followed up after a few combo points with a kidney shot (that's a total of around 8 seconds you keep your target stunned for - talk about a killing from the dark side ;->). While you're doing this, you're poisoning the target, inflicting nasty damage. If you get into trouble, you vanish, or you pick sand up and throw it in your target's eyes and run away, etc, etc.
My point is, as combat, despite what a lot of people may think, playing dirty is part of your ******** which is what being a rogue is, playing dirty. You still use the abilities that define the other trees (you have to), you just launch a much more vicious attack from that platform, as opposed to relying on the platform itself (if that makes any sense).
I got about 4 or 5 rogues to between level 12 and 15 (then gave up) before I took the advice to ditch the little weapons that are daggers, and to play to the strengths of the rogue class, after that, my 6th rogue is now level 64 after 6 days played ... I've leveled him combat (with a brief dabble in the other two trees at 60), and am loving it. The builds I went for were 41 points in whichever tree I was trying, and the remaining points in Assas (if I went 41 points in Sub) or Sub (if I went 41 points in Assas).
wrt Gear ... lotsa gear drops are obtainable on the AH, and rewarded by quests ... however, your weapons are your best friends. From the outset, as mentioned, get a sword for your mainhand ... if you're going Horde - regardless of your race, go to Ghostlands, one of the first quests there reward you with a sword called "Stung" (for killing a Spider .. LOTR reference ftw). This does well as a starter Main hand.
You'll want to get some of the " ... of the fang" items from WC, and the Shoulders from Lady Anacondra.
If you finish the quest for WC (again, horde only), you can get Wingblade ... excellent sword for the level. At about level 24 (I believe) you can get the outlaw Sabre - quest reward from a quick and easy quest in BFD.
Your next 2 weapons are Sword of Omen and Vanquisher's Sword ... quest rewards from SM and RFD quests (level 30 and level 37 respectively)
You'll also want to aim for Thrash Blade at level 45 (quest reward from Maraudon), there are also some excellent shoulders and boots from Mara ... if you have a high level buddy to run you through, try and take advantage of that .. it'll really help a lot ... this'll last you to outlands ... at which stage, you'll be bombarded with so many different weapons and armour, your head will spin.
This is also the stage you may want to fiddle around with different specs .. a few of the very first quests will reward you with 2 x 1.8 daggers ... 1 x 1.4 dagger and 1x 2.4 sword ... collect em all, and give your spec rotations a try.
I hope this is what you were looking for ... I'm no expert, but as I mentioned, I can offer you views from a newly levelling rogue, not one that has spent copious amounts of time raiding, and as such, has a slightly (imo) different view on the class.
This is essentially a very expanded version of what Theo said, but ultimately, he's right .... he's a ******* ... but he's right ;-) (Love your work Theo :-D)
Edited, Jul 15th 2008 11:16am by robertlofthouse
Here's my opinion .. spec combat, at the very least to level 60 ... things slow down dramatically after that (leveling-wise), and then you can play around with specs ... but to be playing around with a low damage, slow levelling spec in Azeroth is gonna drive you crazy (again, my opinion).
When you hit 60, you have a large amount of talent points to get to the top talent in any tree, as well as some points to significantly buff it using other trees.
This is how I see it .. .and my experience is purely from a leveling perspective, and I believe that's the angle you want.
Firstly, the best piece of advice I ever got, and was very glad I took it, was ... ditch the dagger, go for a slow sword (main hand specifically - any fast weapon for off hand is fine).
Combat (not daggers) is very efficient, fast kills, low downtime, quick levelling.
Assasination (Mutilate) is great is you like daggers and don't mind having to constantly reposition yourself behind your target all the time. One thing that sticks out for me with mutilate though, is that in order for the ability to be worth anything, you need to have 2 daggers, as it hits with both weapons ... one dagger simply doesn't do the damage a sword/mace/fist can do. The big drawback is the energy cost, so you land up by waiting large amounts of time between special attacks. You can, however, very easily burst a target down without it ever even knowing you're there ... imo, one of the big plusses to the build
Subtelty (Shadowstep) is a lot of fun, you are very mobile, and getting behind the mob is not that much of an issue, as you're pretty much there if you're within 25 yards ... while it may be attractive to go with a dagger in this build (for ambush), your main damage ability is Hemo, which is weapon damage based, and is therefore better with non daggers. As I said, the beauty of this build is mobility and stealth ... you can move faster, safer and generally more sneakier with this build, the BIG downside is an almost total lack of general damage. Sure, you have some burst damage, but you'll fall asleep waiting for energy ticks and for mobs to die.
Now the kicker ... a lot of people view Combat as very un-roguelike, preferring to be a stealthy ******* and hitting targets from behind, poisoning them to death - assasination / ninja style .. and yes, this is the main domain of Assas/subtlety. BUT, as combat, your openers are either Cheap Shot, or Garotte ... both only usable in stealth, both as nasty as I can imagine an ability to be, and both generally followed up after a few combo points with a kidney shot (that's a total of around 8 seconds you keep your target stunned for - talk about a killing from the dark side ;->). While you're doing this, you're poisoning the target, inflicting nasty damage. If you get into trouble, you vanish, or you pick sand up and throw it in your target's eyes and run away, etc, etc.
My point is, as combat, despite what a lot of people may think, playing dirty is part of your ******** which is what being a rogue is, playing dirty. You still use the abilities that define the other trees (you have to), you just launch a much more vicious attack from that platform, as opposed to relying on the platform itself (if that makes any sense).
I got about 4 or 5 rogues to between level 12 and 15 (then gave up) before I took the advice to ditch the little weapons that are daggers, and to play to the strengths of the rogue class, after that, my 6th rogue is now level 64 after 6 days played ... I've leveled him combat (with a brief dabble in the other two trees at 60), and am loving it. The builds I went for were 41 points in whichever tree I was trying, and the remaining points in Assas (if I went 41 points in Sub) or Sub (if I went 41 points in Assas).
wrt Gear ... lotsa gear drops are obtainable on the AH, and rewarded by quests ... however, your weapons are your best friends. From the outset, as mentioned, get a sword for your mainhand ... if you're going Horde - regardless of your race, go to Ghostlands, one of the first quests there reward you with a sword called "Stung" (for killing a Spider .. LOTR reference ftw). This does well as a starter Main hand.
You'll want to get some of the " ... of the fang" items from WC, and the Shoulders from Lady Anacondra.
If you finish the quest for WC (again, horde only), you can get Wingblade ... excellent sword for the level. At about level 24 (I believe) you can get the outlaw Sabre - quest reward from a quick and easy quest in BFD.
Your next 2 weapons are Sword of Omen and Vanquisher's Sword ... quest rewards from SM and RFD quests (level 30 and level 37 respectively)
You'll also want to aim for Thrash Blade at level 45 (quest reward from Maraudon), there are also some excellent shoulders and boots from Mara ... if you have a high level buddy to run you through, try and take advantage of that .. it'll really help a lot ... this'll last you to outlands ... at which stage, you'll be bombarded with so many different weapons and armour, your head will spin.
This is also the stage you may want to fiddle around with different specs .. a few of the very first quests will reward you with 2 x 1.8 daggers ... 1 x 1.4 dagger and 1x 2.4 sword ... collect em all, and give your spec rotations a try.
I hope this is what you were looking for ... I'm no expert, but as I mentioned, I can offer you views from a newly levelling rogue, not one that has spent copious amounts of time raiding, and as such, has a slightly (imo) different view on the class.
This is essentially a very expanded version of what Theo said, but ultimately, he's right .... he's a ******* ... but he's right ;-) (Love your work Theo :-D)
Edited, Jul 15th 2008 11:16am by robertlofthouse
I am currently leveling sub.
I have respecced 4-5 times between it and combat every few levels, and I must say sub is as fast to level as combat if not faster for a variety of reasons.
I have specced for ambush and then I specced into ghostly strike and setup, which allows me to get very fast combo points to release a insanely fast 4 point eviscerate which typically kills the enemy well before my stealth cooldown is even up again.
My kill method is
Ambush(1-2 combo points)
Ghostly strike(1 combo point)
Hemorrage(1 combo point)
and by this time I typically have a dodge combo point, and I am about 5 seconds or less into a battle when I do eviscerate, and the enemy is either dead if I crit ambush or near dead if not.
Also this method allows me to take less damage as my ghostly strike gives me 15% to dodge for the battle(if it lasts 7 seconds or less which is typical) vice a flat 5% assuming u even grab that in combat. Even if the battle goes 21 seconds, which it never does, I break even off of the dodge from ghostly strike, and it is only 1 point compared to 5 for the dodge in the combat tree.
Now don't get me wrong. I am going to keep respeccing every few levels to see if combat actually gets faster as the levels go on, but for right now I believe leveling sub is best from lvl 10-30 at a minimum.
This assumes you are soloing, as several of the sub talents are wasted if you plan on instance grinding for a large protion of your time.
Here are some extra potentially unnoticed reasons why sub helps leveling faster:
You move faster in stealth. This saves at least 1-2 seconds per mob, just getting there.
You have a much quicker sap recovery time, which means after you have pickpocketed the enemy, you odnt have to wait about 2-3 more seconds to fill your energy bar.
You get seen form stealth less, which means better openers, and thus shorter battles.
There are more synergies, but suffice to say, sub is not atrocious. I would love to see 2 people of roughly level 30 in comparable gear try to grind for about 1 level, and see which one is faster.
My money is on Sub(specced for damage not sub specced for pure stealthiness.)
If You want my exact current talent tree look up mercey on gurabashi.
I plan on respeccing next level back to combat to try it agn, but after just getitng hemorrage, and seeing how much faster my grind has become with it, I can not imagine combat to outrace it for several levels at best. The talents simply are not there.
I have respecced 4-5 times between it and combat every few levels, and I must say sub is as fast to level as combat if not faster for a variety of reasons.
I have specced for ambush and then I specced into ghostly strike and setup, which allows me to get very fast combo points to release a insanely fast 4 point eviscerate which typically kills the enemy well before my stealth cooldown is even up again.
My kill method is
Ambush(1-2 combo points)
Ghostly strike(1 combo point)
Hemorrage(1 combo point)
and by this time I typically have a dodge combo point, and I am about 5 seconds or less into a battle when I do eviscerate, and the enemy is either dead if I crit ambush or near dead if not.
Also this method allows me to take less damage as my ghostly strike gives me 15% to dodge for the battle(if it lasts 7 seconds or less which is typical) vice a flat 5% assuming u even grab that in combat. Even if the battle goes 21 seconds, which it never does, I break even off of the dodge from ghostly strike, and it is only 1 point compared to 5 for the dodge in the combat tree.
Now don't get me wrong. I am going to keep respeccing every few levels to see if combat actually gets faster as the levels go on, but for right now I believe leveling sub is best from lvl 10-30 at a minimum.
This assumes you are soloing, as several of the sub talents are wasted if you plan on instance grinding for a large protion of your time.
Here are some extra potentially unnoticed reasons why sub helps leveling faster:
You move faster in stealth. This saves at least 1-2 seconds per mob, just getting there.
You have a much quicker sap recovery time, which means after you have pickpocketed the enemy, you odnt have to wait about 2-3 more seconds to fill your energy bar.
You get seen form stealth less, which means better openers, and thus shorter battles.
There are more synergies, but suffice to say, sub is not atrocious. I would love to see 2 people of roughly level 30 in comparable gear try to grind for about 1 level, and see which one is faster.
My money is on Sub(specced for damage not sub specced for pure stealthiness.)
If You want my exact current talent tree look up mercey on gurabashi.
I plan on respeccing next level back to combat to try it agn, but after just getitng hemorrage, and seeing how much faster my grind has become with it, I can not imagine combat to outrace it for several levels at best. The talents simply are not there.
Quote:
This is essentially a very expanded version of what Theo said, but ultimately, he's right .... he's a ******* ... but he's right ;-) (Love your work Theo :-D)
Man theo must love all the attention he gets...which one of you is going to blow him first?
Level however you want dude. I hated combat for leveling, figured I might as well roll a warrior. 2 trains of thought:
Level faster as combat and get to the fun stuff quicker
or
Enjoy leveling but get there slower.
I don't know how much time you dedicate, and I hate saying it, but if you want to still get progressed before litch comes out, I'd say go combat.
*prepares for downrates*
Edited, Jul 15th 2008 5:36pm by ThomasMagnum
ThomasMagnum wrote:
Quote:
This is essentially a very expanded version of what Theo said, but ultimately, he's right .... he's a ******* ... but he's right ;-) (Love your work Theo :-D)
Man theo must love all the attention he gets...which one of you is going to blow him first?
Level however you want dude. I hated combat for leveling, figured I might as well roll a warrior. 2 trains of thought:
Level faster as combat and get to the fun stuff quicker
or
Enjoy leveling but get there slower.
I don't know how much time you dedicate, and I hate saying it, but if you want to still get progressed before litch comes out, I'd say go combat.
*prepares for downrates*
Edited, Jul 15th 2008 5:36pm by ThomasMagnum
Bravo Thomas ... it's good for your inner growth to admit you're wrong ! Rate up for you ;-)
If you want to roleplay a rogue, go play Dungeons and Dragons.
If you want to level a rogue in WoW, spec Combat.
If you want to level a rogue in WoW, spec Combat.
Jophiel wrote:
I managed to be both retarded and entertaining.
Here's the thing ... as Sub, using the attacks described above (pretty much what you need to do), you're VERY reliant on Ambush critting, if it crits, especially at low levels, you're looking at a potentially very short fight. Hell, I one shot a level 18 mob in ghostlands when I was level 17 ... it was an amazing rush.
The problem is that as you level up, that damage scales back quite a bit. When I tried it at level 60 (with outland gear and daggers), an Ambush crit accounted for 50% hp ... if it didn't crit (and your ambush crit chance is only about 55% or so), I was in for a looong fight (comparatively to Combat). I couldn't stand it any more, especially when you get multiple mobs. Being used to combat, multi mob pulls as Sub (and even Assas) was hair-raising and horrible.
The overwhelming advantage of combat is that, while you can get around in stealth better as sub, and shadowstep is even more amazing for that .. it is totally unnecesary as combat, you can actually just pull mobs with your bow/throwing knives, and then burn them down face to face if you want ... your dodge helps a lot with mitigation, and your damage output with a hard hitting sword as Sinister Strike is amazing.
Aaall of this being said, you (the OP) state quite clearly that you want to try something other than Combat ... between Assasination and Sub ... I don't know what I'd choose, I guess Sub ... so go that way ... it's more fun that Assas. Just remember - use swords ... Hemo with a dagger is very low in damage compared to a sword. I would still recommed Combat as far and away the best levelling spec.
Oh, and aicoped, if you're going to try Combat ... don't use a dagger - that will be why you're finding it lower on damage and slower to level.
Edited, Jul 16th 2008 12:46am by robertlofthouse
The problem is that as you level up, that damage scales back quite a bit. When I tried it at level 60 (with outland gear and daggers), an Ambush crit accounted for 50% hp ... if it didn't crit (and your ambush crit chance is only about 55% or so), I was in for a looong fight (comparatively to Combat). I couldn't stand it any more, especially when you get multiple mobs. Being used to combat, multi mob pulls as Sub (and even Assas) was hair-raising and horrible.
The overwhelming advantage of combat is that, while you can get around in stealth better as sub, and shadowstep is even more amazing for that .. it is totally unnecesary as combat, you can actually just pull mobs with your bow/throwing knives, and then burn them down face to face if you want ... your dodge helps a lot with mitigation, and your damage output with a hard hitting sword as Sinister Strike is amazing.
Aaall of this being said, you (the OP) state quite clearly that you want to try something other than Combat ... between Assasination and Sub ... I don't know what I'd choose, I guess Sub ... so go that way ... it's more fun that Assas. Just remember - use swords ... Hemo with a dagger is very low in damage compared to a sword. I would still recommed Combat as far and away the best levelling spec.
Oh, and aicoped, if you're going to try Combat ... don't use a dagger - that will be why you're finding it lower on damage and slower to level.
Edited, Jul 16th 2008 12:46am by robertlofthouse
The "best" spec for leveling is combat as it gives you good damage and low down time. The reasons for this in detail have already been hashed out.
However I don't understand why people insist that playing combat is un-roguelike. The role of a rogue in WoW has been and always will be to deal the most single target damage. So to me the spec that does that the best fills that role more than any other. People seem to be getting the idea of rogues and ninjas mixed up.
However I don't understand why people insist that playing combat is un-roguelike. The role of a rogue in WoW has been and always will be to deal the most single target damage. So to me the spec that does that the best fills that role more than any other. People seem to be getting the idea of rogues and ninjas mixed up.
I have a sword in my off hand currently. I use it when I am specced combat.
I have heard the same things you have about sub slowing down as the levels go up.
That is why i am respeccing every few levels.
I want to make sure i am not missing out on the "switchover" point.
I have heard the same things you have about sub slowing down as the levels go up.
That is why i am respeccing every few levels.
I want to make sure i am not missing out on the "switchover" point.
Quote:
Now the kicker ... a lot of people view Combat as very un-roguelike, preferring to be a stealthy ******* and hitting targets from behind, poisoning them to death - assasination / ninja style .. and yes, this is the main domain of Assas/subtlety. BUT, as combat, your openers are either Cheap Shot, or Garotte ... both only usable in stealth, both as nasty as I can imagine an ability to be, and both generally followed up after a few combo points with a kidney shot (that's a total of around 8 seconds you keep your target stunned for - talk about a killing from the dark side ;->). While you're doing this, you're poisoning the target, inflicting nasty damage. If you get into trouble, you vanish, or you pick sand up and throw it in your target's eyes and run away, etc, etc.
I wish I could think this way. Rogue = being a sneaky *******, attacking from behind, being in control. Combat rogue = opening from stealth and then fighting a melee battle as if you were a warrior. That and the fact that 99.99% of ALL swords look DREADFUL on rogues is what I hate about combat. Specially when RP'ing this matters. A rogue with swords to me is something like a pirateninja.
munter wrote:
The most efficient spec for leveling is combat
ftfy.
Really the best spec in this game is the one you enjoy most. I suggest you try all the different specs you can (and at different levels!), and decide from there. Also note that while leveling, the differences don't matter as much as when at end-game. If you want to progress into serious PvP or raiding at 70, then your spec will become a defining aspect of your progression and could help or hinder your chance for success. But until then...
Damn me and my semantics always choosing the wrong words for the right idea.
aicoped wrote:
I have a sword in my off hand currently. I use it when I am specced combat.
That sword is way too fast to be effective as a combat sword. Sinister Strike is you main damage ability as combat .. it's weapon damage based, the slower the weapon, the harder it hits. As a matter of interest, so is Hemo, you're gimping yourself using Hemo with a dagger.
aicoped wrote:
I want to make sure i am not missing out on the "switchover" point.
If you spec combat, and use a slow Main hand non-dagger ... there IS no swithover point - combat is also faster. Warriors and Paladins may be the most gear dependant classes in the game, but I would say rogues depends more on their weapons than any other class - it's what defines a rogue - his weapons. Get the best, hardest hitting waepon you can, and you'll experience the benefits everyone is talking about.
mozared wrote:
I wish I could think this way. Rogue = being a sneaky *******, attacking from behind, being in control. Combat rogue = opening from stealth and then fighting a melee battle as if you were a warrior. That and the fact that 99.99% of ALL swords look DREADFUL on rogues is what I hate about combat. Specially when RP'ing this matters. A rogue with swords to me is something like a pirateninja.
One thing I'm glad about is that you don't associate combat and daggers ... imo, it's the main reason people fail with combat (especially levelling ... however, I have heard that combat daggers can do decent damage at the end game, sometimes better than swords, although I can's see that being possible)
The thing about "Combat rogue = opening from stealth and then fighting a melee battle as if you were a warrior." is not really the way I see it. As a combat rogue, you can sneak around, open up, burn through the mob using stuns and poisons, escape problem situations using blind, gouge and vanish, and re-enter stealth immediately after you've finished (assuming you didn't vanish ofc). You can, quite easily, lock down a target from start to finish as a combat rogue. This is not very different to the way you fight as a backstabbing dagger rogue, you use the same dirty tricks, stuns, etc. The only difference is your required position when fighting - combat is a heck of a lot more forgiving in this regard.
wrt fighting as a warrior, sure - you can do that, but you'll fail more often than not if you do. A warrior's advantage is that he can stand there and take a thumping. As a rogue, you need to do more than just stand there, inherent dodge will help you avoid only so much damage. So common sense use (I was going to write "clever use", but it's not anything more than common sense) of kick and kidney shot, with Gouge and blind on adds, as well as Adrenaline rush and blade flurry when things hit the fan .. these are the abilities that you use as a rogue all the time, regardless of spec (ok, aside from AR/BF), that very clearly set you apart from a warrior. I have a level 70 warrior, and have played him as Fury since level 62, when weapons and gear became available to play as fury - so I speak from experience in the same platform here.
Again, try Subtlety ... I put a spec together that had Camouflage and fleet footed from Assasination, combined with level 60 Stealth, this gives you 98% movement speed in stealth. It's a pity you can't Combine that with Shadowstep, cos that would become a really fun was of playing (Well, you could wait until level 72, then it'd be possible)
Quote:
That sword is way too fast to be effective as a combat sword.
He was talking about his off-hand, where you do want the fastest weapon possible.
Quote:
the slower the weapon, the harder it hits.
Not universally true. What to look for is the highest average damage weapon for your main hand. The tendency to slower weapons is a by-product of itemization, but not a hard and fast rule. And I think (I could be wrong here) that the "tipping point" for hemo is 1.8. But I'd need to check that.
Just some nit-picky points of interest. The OP refuses to spec combat anyway. I might add that ShStep is not a dagger build at 70 as far as I can tell. Every 70 ShS rogue I know is swords, maces, or (the majority) fists right now. Dunno about preferred itemization through leveling /shrug.
TherionSaysWhat wrote:
Quote:
That sword is way too fast to be effective as a combat sword.
He was talking about his off-hand, where you do want the fastest weapon possible.
The sword in his off hand is 2.2 ... which is way too fast for effective Combat. However, it's way too slow as an effective off hand as well, however - he's nowhere near combat potency, so it's not that much of a train-smash.
I'm guessing (as he didn't actually say) that he moved this sword to his main hand when he specs combat ... the problem is that it won't work as well as it could. Granted, it'll probably still be better than the dagger, but it's not using the full benefit of SS.
TherionSaysWhat wrote:
Not universally true. What to look for is the highest average damage weapon for your main hand. The tendency to slower weapons is a by-product of itemization, but not a hard and fast rule. And I think (I could be wrong here) that the "tipping point" for hemo is 1.8. But I'd need to check that.
Accepted - speed is not the main decider - but it's a helluva good rule of thumb. The Same DPS weapon at a slower speed will have a higher average damage, and I'm assuming the comparison between 2 weapons, fast and slow will be of similar levels, and therefore, similar DPS. In this instance .. a slower weapon will hit harder (having higher avg damage)
TherionSaysWhat wrote:
Just some nit-picky points of interest. The OP refuses to spec combat anyway. I might add that ShStep is not a dagger build at 70 as far as I can tell. Every 70 ShS rogue I know is swords, maces, or (the majority) fists right now. Dunno about preferred itemization through leveling /shrug.
Yup, I have indicated that I have accepted his decision to try something else, hence my suggestions on a few occasions to try sub if anything. My justification here is (as stated previously) exactly as you say ... sub is a Sword Spec ... unless you intend using ambush as a main opener (in which case, I'd still keep a sword handy and have a wardrobe mod swap the dagger for a sword as soon as you come out of stealth). Hemo and Ghostly Strike are weapon damage based, and pretty much pointless with a dagger over a sword/mace/fist.
robertlofthouse wrote:
Aaall of this being said, you (the OP) state quite clearly that you want to try something other than Combat ... between Assasination and Sub ... I don't know what I'd choose, I guess Sub ... so go that way ... it's more fun that Assas. Just remember - use swords ... Hemo with a dagger is very low in damage compared to a sword. I would still recommed Combat as far and away the best levelling spec.
Edited, Jul 16th 2008 12:02pm by robertlofthouse
OK, I am aware of why given an equal dps the slower weapon is better for main hand. I don't AH shop, and Have found zero better one hand swords, so I use what I have.
If you are implying that simply slowing down my weapon but keeping the same dps on it is a HUGE difference, I just dont see it.
I get that if it is 25% slower it will get 25% more dmg from sinister strike. It will lose "some" dps from loss of poison proc. But I fail to see how this makes up for the huge amounts of burst dmg I see in my current spec.
And just curious, did you personally spec Ambush/hemorrage spec in the low 30's? If not how do you know which is better there?
Using pure grinding, No questing no instances, it is taking me about 1.5 hours to level currently.
In any event, I do have one question? If I use item rack to swap out my dagger and sword, does it invoke the gcd? and if so, to be clear, you are suggesting thedamage increase will still be worth it?
So my new rotations should be?
Ambush, Switch weapons(1.5 seconds of nothing), hemorrage, ghostly strike, eviscerate?
If you are implying that simply slowing down my weapon but keeping the same dps on it is a HUGE difference, I just dont see it.
I get that if it is 25% slower it will get 25% more dmg from sinister strike. It will lose "some" dps from loss of poison proc. But I fail to see how this makes up for the huge amounts of burst dmg I see in my current spec.
And just curious, did you personally spec Ambush/hemorrage spec in the low 30's? If not how do you know which is better there?
Using pure grinding, No questing no instances, it is taking me about 1.5 hours to level currently.
In any event, I do have one question? If I use item rack to swap out my dagger and sword, does it invoke the gcd? and if so, to be clear, you are suggesting thedamage increase will still be worth it?
So my new rotations should be?
Ambush, Switch weapons(1.5 seconds of nothing), hemorrage, ghostly strike, eviscerate?
aicoped wrote:
If you are implying that simply slowing down my weapon but keeping the same dps on it is a HUGE difference, I just dont see it.
Yes, it is ... remember that you're spamming SS all tehe time to get combo points ...
aicoped wrote:
I get that if it is 25% slower it will get 25% more dmg from sinister strike. It will lose "some" dps from loss of poison proc. But I fail to see how this makes up for the huge amounts of burst dmg I see in my current spec.
I think you're overestimating the damage done by poisons vs the damage done by SS ... poison damage accounts for something like 3% of total dps (someone linked a WWS recently that showed this) ... so 25% gain vs 1% loss on poison applications is a fair deal imo.
That being said ... you don't equip 2 slow weapons. Yor main hand must be slow (or bigger damage), and your off hand must be fast - that combo is the ideal setup
aicoped wrote:
And just curious, did you personally spec Ambush/hemorrage spec in the low 30's? If not how do you know which is better there?
Yes I did - I even said I had good results at lower levels (though I can say I ever had better results that combat at those levels ... just comparable, then again, I was also using the right weapon)... however, once you get to 30 and get Blade flurry - things change a bit.
Besides, at that level, your spec is only starting to make a difference to your gameplay ... hit level 40 (better yet, 50 - for the 41 pt talent), then re-assess.
aicoped wrote:
Using pure grinding, No questing no instances, it is taking me about 1.5 hours to level currently.
Yes, but you ARE only level 30 - it's pretty simple to go that quickly at those levels, regardless of spec, class, race, etc.
aicoped wrote:
In any event, I do have one question? If I use item rack to swap out my dagger and sword, does it invoke the gcd? and if so, to be clear, you are suggesting thedamage increase will still be worth it?
Yes it does ... and no, I'm not suggesting going that route at all. I am suggesting using swords only ... daggers do less damage per hit than swords ... fact. What I was saying, is if you insist on using ambush as an opener, swapping weapons to use the right weapon for the right task be a better way of doing it.
And yes, your first hit after swapping weapons will more than make up for time lost.
aicoped wrote:
So my new rotations should be?
Ambush, Switch weapons(1.5 seconds of nothing), hemorrage, ghostly strike, eviscerate?
I would weave in SnD somewhere there ... probably after ambush ... that way your "1.5 seconds of nothing" is more like "1.5 seconds of ultra fast auto attack while regenerating energy" besides, I don't think it's 1.5 seconds ... I think the GCD for weapon swapping is 1 second (something I think I read somewhere, sometime)
I'm Not a sub expert though, so even at those levels, I can't answer your questions properly ... Combat just seemed so much more intuative as a levelling spec tbh.
Quote:
The thing about "Combat rogue = opening from stealth and then fighting a melee battle as if you were a warrior."
...
so I speak from experience in the same platform here.
...
so I speak from experience in the same platform here.
True yes. To be honest I've actually tried combat daggers on the PTR's to see how it would work; since I swear by daggers, I figured combat itself wouldn't be too bad if I picked dagger spec and sticked to my daggers. But I found it to be plainly horrible. What fun is 10% free crit if you're getting it on sinister strikes and gouges?
The thing is, you cannot deny that the whole combat tree focusses on fighting 'warrior'-style; out of combat and one on one, while subtlety and assassination focus on... assassination. Just take a look at the talents; combat has cheaper sinister strikes, improved S&D (increasing white damage), extra dodge and parry, etc. Subtlety has MoD and Camouflage which both improve stealth rather than melee, initiative to improve openers, dirty deeds doing the same... I can continue this list for hours, but it should be fairly clear. Thinking about this... Assassination focusses on melee fighting with daggers. I just don't like the melee fighting part of the rogue I guess. And the swords, the swords got to go! =P I'll go as far as fist weapons, they look survivable, but god I hate swords.
Mozared wrote:
Quote:
The thing about "Combat rogue = opening from stealth and then fighting a melee battle as if you were a warrior."
...
so I speak from experience in the same platform here.
...
so I speak from experience in the same platform here.
True yes. To be honest I've actually tried combat daggers on the PTR's to see how it would work; since I swear by daggers, I figured combat itself wouldn't be too bad if I picked dagger spec and sticked to my daggers. But I found it to be plainly horrible. What fun is 10% free crit if you're getting it on sinister strikes and gouges?
Well, yeah ... SS and daggers = *blegh*
Mozared wrote:
The thing is, you cannot deny that the whole combat tree focusses on fighting 'warrior'-style; out of combat and one on one, while subtlety and assassination focus on... assassination. Just take a look at the talents; combat has cheaper sinister strikes, improved S&D (increasing white damage), extra dodge and parry, etc. Subtlety has MoD and Camouflage which both improve stealth rather than melee, initiative to improve openers, dirty deeds doing the same... I can continue this list for hours, but it should be fairly clear. Thinking about this... Assassination focusses on melee fighting with daggers. I just don't like the melee fighting part of the rogue I guess. And the swords, the swords got to go! =P I'll go as far as fist weapons, they look survivable, but god I hate swords.
I'll agree that the Assas and sub trees focus on improving the Nasty part of a rogues character, but I still have to disagree that the combat fighting style is warrior like. It CAN be warrior like, and you can play it like that, but you'll suck if you do.
The things that makes a rogue a rogue are : Stealth, Stuns (sap blind and gouge included here), Poisons, get-out-of-jail-free cards, and massive damage. You can use all of these abilities regardless of spec, you are just able to do each more effectively depending on the tree you choose.
I can stunlock a target to death as Combat just as well as I was able to do as either of the other specs, so combat shouldn't be seen as only toe-to-toe, beat on him while he beats on me, because it's not. As for the one-on-one thing ... that's where combat truly shines - 3 mobs are easy, 4 mobs are a little challenging, 5 mobs are pretty hard to do, but quite doable with all cooldowns.
Edited, Jul 16th 2008 4:02pm by robertlofthouse
Sure, you can do whatever you like with every spec. But combat has a huge emphasis on the toe to toe combat where the other trees don't, that's my point. Aside from that, I don't specifically mean WoW 'warrior' fighting either, more the 'warrior' idea in general.
And the swords really make a big difference for me. I might spec combat for some nice fist weapons; at least they give me the idea I'm not focussing on toe-to-toe combat.
And the swords really make a big difference for me. I might spec combat for some nice fist weapons; at least they give me the idea I'm not focussing on toe-to-toe combat.
I've been checking in on this as its progressed and taking note of the comments. I have been trying a lot of things out between the three trees and I've found something that works for right now and is also fun. It's a bit slower than straight combat but I enjoy it more. But this discussion has left me with one question. When is it good to use daggers? Cause it certainly seems like in every circumstance, sword seems to be preferred. I think it's silly for that to be the case when we have abilities that are mandatory dagger use abilities.
EDIT: Also, I wasn't refusing to spec combat, I just wanted input on some other method. I rather enjoy the combat tree -- Riposte and Blade Flurry are awesome -- but it does get very stale, which is why I was looking towards other playstyles.
Edited, Jul 16th 2008 10:44am by ModicaSolis
EDIT: Also, I wasn't refusing to spec combat, I just wanted input on some other method. I rather enjoy the combat tree -- Riposte and Blade Flurry are awesome -- but it does get very stale, which is why I was looking towards other playstyles.
Edited, Jul 16th 2008 10:44am by ModicaSolis
ModicaSolis wrote:
When is it good to use daggers? Cause it certainly seems like in every circumstance, sword seems to be preferred. I think it's silly for that to be the case when we have abilities that are mandatory dagger use abilities.
Edited, Jul 16th 2008 10:44am by ModicaSolis
Edited, Jul 16th 2008 10:44am by ModicaSolis
At this point pretty much only for mutilate, which is your 41 pt. assassination talent. There is also a build at 70 in the sub tree that *can* use daggers, but is ONLY viable for having some world PvP fun (5.5k ambush crits are ridiculous). You can go combat daggers when leveling but you'll end up at the same crossroads - you might as well have higher dmg swords in your hands b/c it's the same play style.
Quote:
OK, I am aware of why given an equal dps the slower weapon is better for main hand.
No. For anything that uses SS or Hemo as the main combo point generation, you want the highest average damage weapon in your main hand. DPS is a quotient (avg. dmg / time) and isn't used directly in damage calculations, it's just a convenient number for comparison, not actually a calculation variable. The speed has nothing to do with how SS or Hemo is directly calculated, it's a stat that is adjusted for itemization purposes (for game balance). There are plenty of slow weapons that have lower average damage than other weapons in the same item level. Please, please, please people, let's be clear about this "slow main" myth! Otherwise we'll be bombarded with dual-wielding Failsteel Lolblades in our BG groups forever!
FOR EXAMPLE:
WowWiki wrote:
Hemorrhage is a talent... dealing 110% weapon damage as well as leaving a debuff that increases physical damage dealt to the target...
Normal Hemorrhage Damage = [(Attack Power/14 * 2.4) + Weapon Damage]*1.10 (no Sinister Calling)
or
Normal Hemorrhage Damage = [(Attack Power/14 * 2.4) + Weapon Damage]*1.20 (with Sinister Calling)
Normal Hemorrhage Damage = [(Attack Power/14 * 2.4) + Weapon Damage]*1.10 (no Sinister Calling)
or
Normal Hemorrhage Damage = [(Attack Power/14 * 2.4) + Weapon Damage]*1.20 (with Sinister Calling)
In regard to the lost poison procs: Well, you're off-hand is generally considered our "proc maker" which is where the fastest possible off-hand weapon is vital. Slightly more important in combat builds, but....
Hope that helps.
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